Trill and Sexual Orientation in Star Trek

[eschaton]

My headcanon was always that - regardless of the sexuality of the host prior to joining - the past memories of other lives via the symbiont meant that most joined Trill were low-key pansexual.

This isn't just based upon the same sex relationship Dax has in Rejoined. It's also due to some of the comments the male future Dax makes about his memories of her relationship with Worf. Just having the memory of being on both sides of the sexual equation means they're less likely to totally rule anything out - no matter how desire works for them in their current body.

 

[Tyberius]

Was the behavior in TNG that unexpected? Assuming that the mores of the Trill culture were the same in TNG as they were in DS9, we could chalk up the actions of the host and symbiote to that of interspecies relations.

If we assume that the symbiotes are hedonists, we have to assume the hosts are the ones exerting the control - that it is the hosts' culture that proscribes maintaining relationships between subsequent hosts and prior hosts.

As Riker had no cultural indoctrination, he wouldn't know not to pursue Crusher. It may have been that he always wanted her and now had the pass to do just that. It also may have been that since he did not have the indoctrination he was not able to resist the hedonistic urges of the symbiote.

With regard to the symbiote's final host in the episode: This may have been some bit of damage control by the host. The host knew of the prior relationship and that it carried forward to Riker. The host then knew that it would be better if Crusher herself ended the relationship, so the host pursued Crusher prompting Crusher to make the final move.

 

[Tenacity]

I've been asked myself, "if it's such a perfect society, how come we don't see any universally accepted homosexuality in it?

Hundreds of species, with thousand of cultures, histories, and traditions, spread over the expanse of the federation.

It extremely unlikely that there is anything approaching "universally accepted" on any subject.

 

[F. King Daniel]

There has been a lot of speculation from Star Trek fans (and even non-fans) over the years about how homosexuality fits into this universe. I've been asked myself, "if it's such a perfect society, how come we don't see any universally accepted homosexuality in it?

I realise this is a 9 year old thread, but the answer is allegedly former Trek overlord Rick Berman. Nothing I've heard over the years is verifiable, but it always comes back to him.

With only the Marvel Universe left trailing behind us, Trek finally introduced gay characters in 2016's Star Trek Beyond and then 2017's Star Trek: Discovery.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

With regard to the symbiote's final host in the episode: This may have been some bit of damage control by the host. The host knew of the prior relationship and that it carried forward to Riker. The host then knew that it would be better if Crusher herself ended the relationship, so the host pursued Crusher prompting Crusher to make the final move.

Are you suggesting that, once in a female host, Odan intentionally sabotaged her (possible) relationship with Beverly? I didn't see it that way.

I interpreted the final scene to mean that Odan genuinely wanted a relationship, but Beverly isn't into women so she broke it off as gently as possible. That's why I think Beverly had that line about "perhaps our ability to love won't be so limited" - she doesn't like girls but also doesn't want to hurt Odan's feelings.

So yeah, sexual orientation would be a different thing between Trill, but when you introduce offworlders into the mix, that's another thing altogether. Lots of races - ours included - would be understandably confused about being with someone who can essentially change sex at a moment's notice.

 

[Tenacity]

Trek finally introduced gay characters in 2016's Star Trek Beyond and then 2017's Star Trek: Discovery.

in beyond it was subtle to the point of near invisibility, only in std was the presence of gays made clear and unmistakeable.

 

[F. King Daniel]

in beyond it was subtle to the point of near invisibility, only in std was the presence of gays made clear and unmistakeable.

Well one was in the background of a different story, only in Disco is it front and centre of the story itself. But inclusion is inclusion, and making Sulu retroactively gay is pretty awesome.

 

[Tyberius]

Are you suggesting that, once in a female host, Odan intentionally sabotaged her (possible) relationship with Beverly? I didn't see it that way.

I didn't either. I am just trying to retcon a possible explanation. The only other explanations of the top of my head given DS9 are that Odan was a deviant or that Trill culture only changed later.

 

[mlbach]

For the record, George Takai has said that Sulu was not gay, and he wasn’t pleased when they made him gay in the reboot, but that Spock had what he called homosexual longing for Kirk. I think he should know.

 

[Qonundrum]

A directly related question might be along the lines of this (?): Is love about celebrating and cherishing the personality of another person in a physical way regardless of how one feels, or is it one solely indulging personal sexual desires?

DS9 shows the former. TNG shows the latter. Is one less valid than the other? (Nope.)

So this means Dr Crusher is not homophobic "just because", or by default. She's caught in a dichotomy involving a person that's hosting a sentient parasite gastropod-like thing. She loves the parasite's personality but combined both love and lust as part of the same thing. Some people teeter on the scale in one direction more than another, Crusher's not the same as Dax or anyone else.

 

[mlbach]

The Trill changed quite a bit between TNG and ds9, and not just because of the forehead and the spots. I thought The Host was kind of a cop out. When Odan expressed affection by kissing the inside of Beverly’s wrist, I thought, “Hmmm, that’s odd.” When the replacement arrived and did the same wrist kissing thing, I realized, oh, that’s so they don’t have to show two women kissing. On the lips.
When the new host arrives on the ship, her affect is completely flat. She seems to have no personality at all. It seems like the hosts are nothing more than mindless drones that are vehicles for the symbionts. Riker has no memory of his time carrying Odan (and being with Crusher). Another cop-out, imho. It also raises the ethical question of whether the symbiont taking over another being is stifling the growth of the host species.
I much preferred the new and revised version of the Trill in ds9.

 

[Arpy]

The thing about the Trill originally is that “it’s what’s on the inside that counts.” You fall in love with the person’s personality, and the outside is less important — whether they’re attractive (like the first Odan), someone you knew (like Riker), or a new sex (like the second Odan). The Trill are about what’s on the inside.

Now, that’s a little simplistic, but those were the time; that was the story in the episode, I think.

Now, a major problem is that what’s on the inside in the case if the Trill is not only a soul (personality) but a soul-suppressing slug. The total suppression of the host’s “what’s inside” is creepy and doesn’t quite work, even if you forgive it in the moment as some weird way of an alien people.

The sexuality of the symbionts is unknown and maybe irrelavent (at least in discussing the sexuality of the host). Symbionts could be hetero, homo, pan, or asexual. A Joined Trill (as we’ve come to know them) is a new personality made up of the two beings at the same time. Whatever the sexuality of the host is, it needs to be able to “play well with others” with 1) the (a)sexuality of the symbiont now and 2) the memories of its previous hosts/sexualities. A Joined Trill needs to not become schizophrenic (or otherwise mentally stressed) bombarded by thoughts, memories, urges, and memories of urges. Maybe sexual compatibility is one of the factors the Symbiosis Commission works in during a pairing.

Maybe the Trill aren’t any more bisexual a species than us (or even those few that are chosen for joining). Maybe the mind is more resilient than some think, and we humans could adjust to being fully gay after being fully straight (say after a brain injury or elective procedure). Or not.

 

[Tenacity]

The thing about the Trill originally is that “it’s wjats on the inside that counts.” You fall in love with the person’s personality, and the outside is less important,

The female Odan lacked a penis on the outside, so Bev wasn't interested in her romantic relationship wise.

 

[mlbach]

Didn’t seem to bother Jadzia re: Lanara

 

[DonIago]

For the record, George Takai has said that Sulu was not gay, and he wasn’t pleased when they made him gay in the reboot, but that Spock had what he called homosexual longing for Kirk. I think he should know.

The actor isn't the final arbiter of the character. There's authorial intent to consider.

Anyway, for all we know both Sulus are bisexual, or one is straight while the other is not. Who cares? And is it not just a bit offensive to assume someone's orientation without hearing it from them directly?

 

[Nakita Akita]

A directly related question might be along the lines of this (?): Is love about celebrating and cherishing the personality of another person in a physical way regardless of how one feels, or is it one solely indulging personal sexual desires?

DS9 shows the former. TNG shows the latter. Is one less valid than the other? (Nope.)

So this means Dr Crusher is not homophobic "just because", or by default. She's caught in a dichotomy involving a person that's hosting a sentient parasite gastropod-like thing. She loves the parasite's personality but combined both love and lust as part of the same thing. Some people teeter on the scale in one direction more than another, Crusher's not the same as Dax or anyone else.

How is she homophobic?
She has a fear of homosexuals?
I never saw this on any episode.

 

[mos6507]

The actor isn't the final arbiter of the character.

We're going to adjudicate this again? Let it go.

 

[DonIago]

I thought Crusher did come off as a little homophobic personally. I'm not exactly bearing her ill will at this point, but if I recall correctly a lot of it had to do with her phrasing at the time.

 

[DonIago]

We're going to adjudicate this again? Let it go.

Why did you bring it up if you don't want to discuss it? But hey, whatever.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I thought Crusher did come off as a little homophobic personally.

Not being sexually attracted to another person is not a form of prejudice. It's true if the people are the opposite sex or the same sex.