Trek's lowest moment

[Phantom]

Why would Picard, a man of science and reason,have anything positive to say about the supernatural, superstition and ignorance? "

Picard: "Mister Worf, the Enterprise crew currently includes representatives from thirteen planets. They each have their individual beliefs and values and I respect them all."

Basically that's why.

The Picard we see in that one scene is so very different than the Picard shown in the rest of the series, the compassionate, understanding and diplomatic Picard completely disappears for several seconds.

Respect is different than actively participating in leading people back to a time of belief in the supernatural, superstition and ignorance.

Again, I note the perjorative words against faith.

Just out of interest and I really don't mean to diverge the thread but it feels on topic. Why is abandoning religion bad?

Trek always seemed to imply that the only reason humans and other Federation members reached the success they did was because of hard work, rationality, and technological advancements.

And implying that humans don't take religion as seriously as they once did.

On the contrary, they reached the success they did by allowing each to make up their own mind about such things.

Phlox once attended services at St Paul's Cathederal (and spoke approvingly about the experience). Kirk, while doing what he had to do to get out of the grip of Apollo, in the end "Would it have hurt us to burn just a few laurel leaves?"

In ST III, he told a scoffing Morrow: "You don't have to believe. I'm not sure I even believe. But if there's a chance that Spock has an eternal soul, then it's my responsibility...as surely as if it were my very own."

You can see some of Gene's softcore humanism in certain episodes.

As in the above, where he was still respectful of the other side of the question. By the time TNG came around, he was a much more strident humanist/atheist, and it showed through in the writing.

 

[Phantom]

With the greatest respect for your belief, I don't "choose not to believe" in your God any more than I choose not to believe in fairies, whose existence also cannot be disproved; that's not how burden of proof works.

Since science in your view can neither prove nor disprove the existence of a God, then that is a question science should not be invoked either for or against, and the atheistic position is no more or less credible than the devout.

BTW, as a side note about "religion = ignorance":

8 of the 10 smartest people in the world (measured by IQ) are religious. 6 of the 8 are Christians.

http://www.examiner.com/article/of-...least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians

Food for thought.

Which reminds me: another example of secularist bigotry in Trek is when Keiko in her school tried to teach that the Prophets were just "wormhole aliens". Not only was it a low point on the basis of religion. It was a profound disrepect of the beliefs of their Bajoran hosts, akin to the 'missionary schools' used against Native American culture in the 1800s.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Why would Picard, a man of science and reason,have anything positive to say about the supernatural, superstition and ignorance? Why would he allow a people, who have risen above such beliefs, regress backwards toward them? Especially if he was the cause of this regression. Pretty much every "God" we meet in Star Trek is an alien, a corrupt AI or a con artist.
Are you pro Ardra as well? Should he have just turned his back and say, "well if that's what you want to believe."

Sisko was every bit as much a "man of science and reason" as a Starfleet officer, but (unlike Picard, and many other SF officers) he had no problem making room in his life for both reason and faith.

Your bias is implicit in your choice of words: "superstition and ignorance" "risen above such beliefs" "regress backwards".

Yes, I am biased. I support thought, reason and science. And no I don't care for the supernatural and superstition. They aren't good things to believe in. Magic, elves, fear of black cats and the belief in deities who control the weather and fate and can change them on a whim make for good fiction and little else.

Picard's problem seemed to be with setting himself up as a Prophet/God and violating the Prime Directive.

PICARD: Doctor, you believe the Mintakans are capable of harming Counsellor Troi?
BARRON: They are not normally a violent people but these are extraordinary circumstances. They're trying to comprehend what they believe to be a god.
PICARD: Recommendations?
BARRON: The Mintakans wish to please the Overseer, but they can only guess what he wants. They need a sign.
PICARD: Are you suggesting?
BARRON: You must go down to Mintaka Three.
RIKER: Masquerading as a god?
PICARD: Absolutely out of the question. The Prime Directive
BARRON: Has already been violated. The damage is done. All we can do now is minimise it.
PICARD: By sanctioning their false beliefs?
BARRON: By giving them guidelines. Letting them know what the Overseer expects of them.
PICARD: Doctor Barron, I cannot, I will not, impose a set of commandments on these people. To do so violates the very essence of the Prime Directive.
BARRON: Like it or not, we have rekindled the Mintakans' belief in the Overseer.
RIKER: And are you saying that this belief will eventually become a religion?
BARRON: It's inevitable. And without guidance, that religion could degenerate into inquisitions, holy wars, chaos.
PICARD: Horrifying. Doctor Barron, your report describes how rational these people are. Millennia ago, they abandoned their belief in the supernatural. Now you are asking me to sabotage that achievement, to send them back into the Dark Ages of superstition and ignorance and fear? No! We will find some way to undo the damage we've caused. Number One, tell me about this group's leader.
RIKER: Nuria. Exceptionally clear-minded, sensible. The Mintakans trust her judgment. If we can convince her that you are not a god
PICARD: She might be able to persuade the others.
BARRON: And how do you propose to convince her?
PICARD: She believes the Picard is a magical figure. I'm going to show her how the magic works. I'm going to bring her aboard.

The alternative to Sisko was Akorem Laan. And we know how that was working out. The situation with the Bajorans is different than the Mintakans anyway. Different cultures at different levels of advancement. Sisko was chosen by the Prophets. Picard's "ascension" was an accident. Sisko at least met the Prophets ( wormhole aliens) and could rationalize Bajoran prophecies as the work of non-linear, extra dimensional aliens. Picard never met the Overseer and the Mintakans had abandoned belief him until the Federation showed up and gave rise to "The Picard".

Not very reflective of the Federation values you claim are morally superior, is it?

The Federation is fiction and subject to the whims of its creators. My values tell me to tolerate people who believe in superstition and the supernatural as long as they are doing no harm.

DS9 left open the question of what exactly the Prophets were an let the characters (and viewers) make their own minds up.

That's why it's the best Trek since TOS.

I thought it was the best since TOS because it was well written and not because it might re-enforce some beliefs I have.

I must have missed the TOS episode that promoted superstition and the supernatural.

KOROB: My name is Korob. And as for bringing you here, it was you who quite contrarily insisted upon coming. You were warned to stay away.
KIRK: Why? For what reason? Why all the mumbo-jumbo?
KOROB: Mumbo-jumbo? (the cat meows as if explaining) Oh! Oh, no, I assure you it was not that, Captain.
SPOCK: Mapping expeditions have charted this solar system before. There never have been any life forms on Pyris Seven.
KOROB: It is of no importance that we are not native to this planet. (meow) Oh! I'm told that I've been an inattentive host, gentlemen. You will join me for something to refresh yourselves.
(He leaves his throne and the cat follows.)
MCCOY: That cat.
KIRK: That cat.
SPOCK: There are ancient Earth legends about wizards and their familiars.
MCCOY: Familiars?
SPOCK: Demons in animal forms sent by Satan to serve the wizard.
KIRK: Superstition.
SPOCK: I do not create the legend, Captain. I merely report it.
KOROB: You are the different one, Mister Spock. You do not think like the others. There are no colours to your patterns of logic. There's only black and white. You see all this around you, yet you do not believe.
MCCOY: He doesn't know about trick or treat.

APOLLO: Search your most distant memories, those of the thousands of years past, and I am there. Your fathers knew me, and your father's fathers. I am Apollo.
CHEKOV: And I am the tsar of all the Russias.
KIRK: Mister Chekov.
CHEKOV: I'm sorry, Captain. I never met a god before.
KIRK: And you haven't yet. Readings, Doctor.
MCCOY: Simple humanoid, Captain.

Even back then the UFP frowned up on citizens declaring themselves God to less advanced people

MCCOY: One, just once, I'd like to be able to land someplace and say, Behold, I am the Archangel Gabriel.
SPOCK: I fail to see the humour in that situation, Doctor.

 

[T'Girl]

Trek always seemed to imply that the only reason humans and other Federation members reached the success they did was because of hard work, rationality, and technological advancements.

Also we have seen Star Trek characters make decisions based upon emotions, intuition, personal experiences and the "feeling in their guts." These things protected their society and advanced their culture.

And implying that humans don't take religion as seriously as they once did

In the 24th century, when Miles and Keiko were wed, Keiko was wearing a traditional Shinto wedding dress. Chakotay certain had spirituality, which Janeway personally experienced.

 

[Iamnotspock]

Since science in your view can neither prove nor disprove the existence of a God, then that is a question science should not be invoked either for or against, and the atheistic position is no more or less credible than the devout.

That's not my view, but I agree with you with regard to hard/strong atheism; I'm a soft/weak atheist (I dislike the term atheist, since it defines my lack of belief as a belief, in relation to what other people believe), or agnostic atheist. Atheism is not necessarily the categorical assertion that there is nothing out there that could be classified as a "God", but at the most basic level is the rejection of precise theistic claims without evidence. It's perfectly possible that Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning knowledge; the term applied to the current sphere of human knowledge and the methodological tools with which we gather it) may one day prove or disprove God.

Could there be a God? Of course. Is there a God? Until He gives me sufficient reason to believe firmly in Him, I'm going to default to "no". It's that simple.

BTW, as a side note about "religion = ignorance":

8 of the 10 smartest people in the world (measured by IQ) are religious. 6 of the 8 are Christians.

http://www.examiner.com/article/of-...least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians

Food for thought.

Fascinating.

 

[Phantom]

Trek always seemed to imply that the only reason humans and other Federation members reached the success they did was because of hard work, rationality, and technological advancements.

Also we have seen Star Trek characters make decisions based upon emotions, intuition, personal experiences and the "feeling in their guts." These things protected their society and advanced their culture.

And implying that humans don't take religion as seriously as they once did

In the 24th century, when Miles and Keiko were wed, Keiko was wearing a traditional Shinto wedding dress. Chakotay certain had spirituality, which Janeway personally experienced.

Since I didn't regularly watch Voyager after a certain point, I keep forgetting about Chakotay. yet another indictment of Picard's agressive secularism.

BTW, as a side note about "religion = ignorance":

8 of the 10 smartest people in the world (measured by IQ) are religious. 6 of the 8 are Christians.

http://www.examiner.com/article/of-...least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians

Food for thought.

Fascinating.

There are plenty of scientists out there who will tell you (at least when their secular "bretheren" are not around to try and get them fired) that their understanding of science has brought them closer to God and/or the divine than they were previously.

And there are plenty of them working quite hard to produce science supporting a non-secular origin theory of existence. They're facing an uphill fight though, because the secular materialists are fimly in control of the institution of science, and little debate is tolerated.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Trek always seemed to imply that the only reason humans and other Federation members reached the success they did was because of hard work, rationality, and technological advancements.

Also we have seen Star Trek characters make decisions based upon emotions, intuition, personal experiences and the "feeling in their guts." These things protected their society and advanced their culture.

In the 24th century, when Miles and Keiko were wed, Keiko was wearing a traditional Shinto wedding dress. Chakotay certain had spirituality, which Janeway personally experienced.

Since I didn't regularly watch Voyager after a certain point, I keep forgetting about Chakotay. yet another indictment of Picard's agressive secularism.

BTW, as a side note about "religion = ignorance":

8 of the 10 smartest people in the world (measured by IQ) are religious. 6 of the 8 are Christians.

http://www.examiner.com/article/of-...least-8-are-theists-at-least-6-are-christians

Food for thought.

Fascinating.

There are plenty of scientists out there who will tell you (at least when their secular "bretheren" are not around to try and get them fired) that their understanding of science has brought them closer to God and/or the divine than they were previously.

And there are plenty of them working quite hard to produce science supporting a non-secular origin theory of existence. They're facing an uphill fight though, because the secular materialists are fimly in control of the institution of science, and little debate is tolerated.

You have no clue about science, do you?

 

[BillJ]

And there are plenty of them working quite hard to produce science supporting a non-secular origin theory of existence. They're facing an uphill fight though, because the secular materialists are fimly in control of the institution of science, and little debate is tolerated.

There is one thing they need... proof.

"We would need evidence that rock layers could somehow form in just 4000 years ... we would need evidence that somehow you can reset atomic clocks and keep neutrons from becoming protons. Bring on any of those things and you would change me immediately."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-macmillan/bill-nye-creation-debate_b_4775207.html

 

[Iamnotspock]

And there are plenty of them working quite hard to produce science supporting a non-secular origin theory of existence.

I don't doubt it.

 

[eyeresist]

Why would Picard, a man of science and reason,have anything positive to say about the supernatural, superstition and ignorance? "

Picard: "Mister Worf, the Enterprise crew currently includes representatives from thirteen planets. They each have their individual beliefs and values and I respect them all."

Basically that's why.

The Picard we see in that one scene is so very different than the Picard shown in the rest of the series, the compassionate, understanding and diplomatic Picard completely disappears for several seconds.

Showing respect for others' beliefs is not the same thing as taking those beliefs seriously. How could Picard give each of them full credence, when most religions claim to be the One True Faith? Simple math tells us that no more than one One True Faith can be true, in which case all the others must be false.

Who says that these events are not intended by a divine figure to rekindle the Mintakan faith and draw them back from atheism?

As a religionist, aren't you worried that they might be adopting the wrong religion? Or will any old religion do?

That none of the people in that room even ask the question is more bigotry against religion.

Not believing in religion isn't bigotry against religion any more than believing in religion is bigotry against atheism.

And there are plenty of them working quite hard to produce science supporting a non-secular origin theory of existence. They're facing an uphill fight though, because the secular materialists are fimly in control of the institution of science, and little debate is tolerated.

Ah. Intelligent design. Just because you want it to be true, that doesn't mean it is.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Just out of interest and I really don't mean to diverge the thread but it feels on topic. Why is abandoning religion bad?

Let's not divert that far off course. You can start a thread in Miscellaneous or TNZ for that.

Thank you but the thread has been interesting. I am not sure asking this question on its own would even be productive...

 

[1001001]

Just out of interest and I really don't mean to diverge the thread but it feels on topic. Why is abandoning religion bad?

Let's not divert that far off course. You can start a thread in Miscellaneous or TNZ for that.

Thank you but the thread has been interesting. I am not sure asking this question on its own would even be productive...

Interesting or not, a thread called "Trek's Lowest Moment" in the General Trek Forum is not the place to have a general debate about Science vs. Religion. We have other forums for that.

 

[1001001]

Hi folks,

You'll notice I had to edit out several images. I apologize for that. It's not my call. Google is making our lives miserable.

Please refrain from posting anything remotely inappropriate.

Again, my apologies. There's nothing we can do about it.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Let's not divert that far off course. You can start a thread in Miscellaneous or TNZ for that.

Thank you but the thread has been interesting. I am not sure asking this question on its own would even be productive...

Interesting or not, a thread called "Trek's Lowest Moment" in the General Trek Forum is not the place to have a general debate about Science vs. Religion. We have other forums for that.

Thanks I shall keep it in mind if ever I want to discuss..

What's TNZ

 

[FormerLurker]

It stands for "The Neutral Zone". One of the other rooms on the forum. go out to the home page and scroll down. You'll find it.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

It stands for "The Neutral Zone". One of the other rooms on the forum. go out to the home page and scroll down. You'll find it.

Ta thanks... Did that can't find it

 

[eyeresist]

It stands for "The Neutral Zone". One of the other rooms on the forum. go out to the home page and scroll down. You'll find it.

Ta thanks... Did that can't find it

It's there. Maybe you are going to the wrong page? Just click the site logo at the top of the page. The Neutral Zone is under "Lounges & General Chat".

 

[BillJ]

It stands for "The Neutral Zone". One of the other rooms on the forum. go out to the home page and scroll down. You'll find it.

Ta thanks... Did that can't find it

It's there. Maybe you are going to the wrong page? Just click the site logo at the top of the page. The Neutral Zone is under "Lounges & General Chat".

You have to opt into TNZ through the User Control Panel.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

You have to opt in by becoming a member.

The Trek BBS > User Control Panel > Group Memberships

Opting in to The Neutral Zone should be obvious from there.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It stands for "The Neutral Zone". One of the other rooms on the forum. go out to the home page and scroll down. You'll find it.

Ta thanks... Did that can't find it

It's there. Maybe you are going to the wrong page? Just click the site logo at the top of the page. The Neutral Zone is under "Lounges & General Chat".

IIRC, you have to ask to join. PM T'Bonz