Trekonomics - soon to be released

[T'Girl]

because people do not desire luxury items anymore

If peoples no longer desire luxury items then why do tailors exist?

That first addition William Shakespeare that Picard keeps open and under glass in his ready room says luxury item, and explain Picard's dune buggy.

Why does Luxanna Troi wear elaborate jewelry?

It is no coincidence that the two non-Starfleet professions (did I miss any?=) we see in Trek are food-related

Bashir's father was a third-class steward on a shuttle (which might involve food), and Spock's mother was a teacher at some point. We saw miners, bartenders, someone must of harvested those shellfish Sisko was cleaning.

Given that Robert Picard refused have a replicator in his house, it's possible to believe that he won't allow machines to harvest his grapes. When harvest time arrives, Picard probably hires a fair sized crew to hand pick the crop.

We are trying to imagine an gigantic mix of economic systems from dozens to hundreds of worlds ...

I think this is exactly what it is. Groups of planets could have the same economic system, while individual planets might have multiple different systems in different regions.

Same with the main characters like Picard or Kirk, they are not captains because of the prestige or the paychecks but because it is their "first, best destiny".

Actually it is suggested in The Ultimate Computer that Kirk does enjoy the prestige, ceremony and power that comes with being a Starship Captain. We hear of Starfleet personnel being paid, in the novel Crisis on Centaurus, Kirk muses that Starfleet pays their starship captains extremely well.

When Picard is directly asked if he is payed (FC), he ducks the question.

wrongly assume that Sisko and Picard do what they do for the sake of money

Solely for the sake of money? I don't think anyone is insisting on this, however you can do something you love and still be earning a comfortable living doing it. Just as you can make money doing something that just a job.

One doesn't cancel out the other.

If you do not like a job and only do it for the paycheck you can at best be mediocre at it

That doesn't follow. You can adore your profession and absolutely suck at it, and you can view your job as just a job and still be highly skilled and talented in the occupation.

Or they have a vastly different system of values (cultural or economic in nature), than Earth standard.

Which only further makes one wonder, why did they join an organisation that is in conflict with their ideals and values?

Nothing says you have to adopt some central "Federation ideal" in order to become a Federation member. The hundreds of members likely have societies, cultures and ethical standards that are radically different from each other.

What we know of the origin of the Federation was that is was a alliance of worlds based on mutual defense against the Romulan Star Empire. .

While there are some other attributes, at it core the Federation might primarily be just a defense alliance.

I guess the point is, how does Sisko's restaurant (and Picard's winery) survive without tapping into the replicator-based economics of the Federation? How do those businesses acquire what they need, to produce what they do? And what compensation do they receive for that?

This would imply that there is a entirely separate non-replicator infrastructure.

My impression is that the replicator is only a few decades old, so the "old system" could easily still be in place and functional.

We're not just talking about two career driven characters. We're talking about society as a whole.

While it believable that a group of people will freely choose to devote themselves to "bettering themselves," it defies logic that an entire population (the Federation is perhaps a trillion) will all have the same philosophy.

Some people will volunteer their efforts for no compensation, other people right here on earth will reasonable expect to be paid for their honest days labors.

 

[TheGoodNews]

So lot's of race car drivers, ballerinas, architects, musicians, park rangers, pilots, and veterinarians?

A society of artisans who freed from material need or scarcity are able to pursue their higher aspirations. Didn't I explain some of this to you before?

There must be millions and millions of Federation Presidents.

In an egalitarian society all would be equal participants. Rulers w/o slaves. Think of the ecclesia but all inclusive.

I guess the point is, how does Sisko's restaurant (and Picard's winery) survive without tapping into the replicator-based economics of the Federation? How do those businesses acquire what they need, to produce what they do? And what compensation do they receive for that?

New tech platforms where energy production cost are near zero might help:

"Internet technology and renewable energies are beginning to merge to create an Energy Internet that will change the way power is generated and distributed in society. In the coming era, hundreds of millions of people will produce their own renewable energy in their homes, offices, and factories and share green electricity with each other on an Energy Internet, just as we now generate and share information online. When Internet communications manage green energy, every human being on Earth becomes his or her own source of power, both literally and figuratively. The Zero Marginal Cost Society by Jeremy Rifkin"

Some call it prosumerism.

 

[hux]

Nothing says you have to adopt some central "Federation ideal" in order to become a Federation member. The hundreds of members likely have societies, cultures and ethical standards that are radically different from each other.

Doesn't the existence of a Federation president contradict that? He clearly has power. One presumes he is democratically elected so how can he even come close to effectively representing such vastly disparate cultures, ethics, economies and standards?

If he was purely a figurehead cutting ribbons at the local fair that would be fine but DS9 shows that he has the power to declare marshal law on Earth.

If one planet has a radically different economic system to Earth that relies on currency, that has crime, that has laws that would make no sense on Earth, why would those people vote for a man who lives on a planet that has no understanding or need for any of those things?

While there are some other attributes, at it core the Federation might primarily be just a defense alliance.

And if that's the case, what are the Federation getting out of this deal? Why invite people to an organisation where you do all the work, you provide all the defence, you are the vanguard.

What do the Federation get? Recruits? Labour? Foot soldiers?

 

[Ithekro]

So far all the Federation Presidents we have seen have not been from Earth, if that means anything.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ The president from ST IV (Hiram Roth) was human.

I guess the point is, how does Sisko's restaurant (and Picard's winery) survive without tapping into the replicator-based economics of the Federation? How do those businesses acquire what they need, to produce what they do? And what compensation do they receive for that?

This would imply that there is a entirely separate non-replicator infrastructure.

My impression is that the replicator is only a few decades old, so the "old system" could easily still be in place and functional.

It just begs the question: if the economic system of the Federation is based on replicators, how do people who don't have replicators get by?

 

[T'Girl]

If he was purely a figurehead cutting ribbons at the local fair that would be fine but DS9 shows that he has the power to declare marshal law on Earth.

In TVH the President is shown at one point giving a traffic advisory, later he is officiating at a courts martial.

During TOS it's not clear if the Federation even had a President at all. It might be a office that kind of comes and goes over time.

While there are some other attributes, at it core the Federation might primarily be just a defense alliance.

And if that's the case, what are the Federation getting out of this deal? Why invite people to an organization where you do all the work, you provide all the defense, you are the vanguard.

I'm not sure I understand your post.

The Federation and the Membership aren't somehow two separate entities. The collective members are the Federation, it's composed of them.

 

[Ithekro]

From what I remember the President in TVH was from Alpha Centauri or some such place, not Earth.

 

[T'Girl]

In Star Trek, lots of non-Humans look exactly like Humans. Is "Hiram Roth" from the movie, or out of some novel?

 

[horatio83]

I do not consider the economics we see in Trek as very relastic.
But if on the firm side the costs of basic goods become very small and on the household side the demand for luxury goods approaches zero and labour supply becomes independent of wages (while people here mainly have an issue with this assumption I think this is a very natural consequence of the other two changes) then and only then something like the economics we see in Trek becomes possible.

As I said, I don't view it as realistic. Then again I know that 7 billion humans cannot drive around in SUVs, I know that we have to radically change in this century lest we go extinct (perhaps not in a biological sense, although climate change could spiral towards such a scenario, but definitely in a cultural sense).
So perhaps the real utopia, in the quite literal sense of non-place, is the notion that we can just go as we have.

From this perspective the economics of Trek doesn't seem to be crazy anymore. It rather looks like the only sustainable path as all others lead to extinction.

 

[horatio83]

Nothing says you have to adopt some central "Federation ideal" in order to become a Federation member. The hundreds of members likely have societies, cultures and ethical standards that are radically different from each other.

Doesn't the existence of a Federation president contradict that? He clearly has power. One presumes he is democratically elected so how can he even come close to effectively representing such vastly disparate cultures, ethics, economies and standards?

Only a right-winger can ask such a question.
The Federation has universal values that apply for all its members. Read some history. Left-wing emancipatory movements have always been centralized.

 

[hux]

I'm not sure I understand your post.

The Federation and the Membership aren't somehow two separate entities. The collective members are the Federation, it's composed of them.

I mean when the Federation approaches a new planet for membership, what do the Federation get by having this planet in the organisation? We know the planet gets protection from one of the major powers (possibly some superior technology and ideas) and this no doubt involves a great deal of work, sacrifice, dedication from the established Federation members. But what does the Federation gain from the new planet? Is there a national service type thing? Once you join, you agree to provide labour, Starfleet recruits, military recruits?

Only a right-winger can ask such a question.

Only someone who violently beats his wife could make such a statement.

The Federation has universal values that apply for all its members. Read some history. Left-wing emancipatory movements have always been centralized.

So if one planet is using a currency based economy that requires and employs labour, commerce, social status and class distinctions, that planet should embrace the values of an organisation that abandoned all those concepts centuries ago?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In Star Trek, lots of non-Humans look exactly like Humans. Is "Hiram Roth" from the movie, or out of some novel?

Roth was first named in Articles of the Federation. And even without that, I see no reason to believe he is anything other than what he looks like: human.

 

[T'Girl]

Federation president ... One presumes he is democratically elected so how can he even come close to effectively representing such vastly disparate cultures, ethics, economies and standards?

Realistically the President individually couldn't, but given the incredible complex cosmopolitan mixture of the Federation could there be any genuine expectation that they would be able too?

Remember, the Federation's governance isn't a "central government," doesn't form policy for the population of the Federation, their own home worlds do that. The Federation doesn't reshape cultures or advance ethics, the individual species do that for themselves.

The Federation (most likely) has a extremely limited mandate in areas like defense, enabling trade, and a few other things.

So the President would need to be a talented administrator and executive manager, he would lead the governing body of the Federation. But he would not be require to be the leader of the Member worlds. They would do that for themselves.

Federation president ... One presumes he is democratically elected

Maybe just by the Council itself through.

Only a right-winger can ask such a question.

Really horatio83, shouldn't everyone should be allowed to ask important questions? People across the political spectrum.

The Federation has universal values that apply for all its members.

Seem unlikely, with each new Member there would come an increase in the Federation's multi-cultural diverse mindset, once the new Member began to voting on measures and policies, their position on these matters would reflect the many new ideas they "bring to the table."

 

[Ithekro]

Not all humans are born on Earth anymore.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Maybe just by the Council itself through.

I doubt it. In the litverse, the UFP President is definitely elected by popular vote, but even if you don't accept the novels' explanation...in this case you should, anyway. Isn't that the most democratic way to choose a leader?

(Summoning Sci in 5...4...3... )

 

[Ithekro]

Do we even know for sure the Federation is a democracy (which would seemingly be impossible) Or even a Representative democracy or Republic using elected representatives rather than direct voting of the people of all these member worlds on stuff. If the Federation is more of an alliance, than it doesn't even need to be a democracy. It just need to defend its member worlds.

 

[hux]

So the President would need to be a talented administrator and executive manager, he would lead the governing body of the Federation. But he would not be require to be the leader of the Member worlds. They would do that for themselves.

Which is why I didn't like the events of Homefront and Paradise Lost. It should have been an Earth president/leader dealing with that situation. Those episodes suggested that the Federation president had some genuine political power on Earth (and therefore presumably on all Federation worlds).

DS9 writers once again muddying the waters.

 

[T'Girl]

Those episodes suggested that the Federation president had some genuine political power on Earth (and therefore presumably on all Federation worlds)

There no reason to believe that just because the Federation President could declare a state of emergency on Earth, that he'd be able to do the same on any other planet in the Federation.

Any way you look at it, Earth is a atypical world in the Federation Membership. It holds the Federation's governing body, and it holds the HQ of Starfleet.

If both of those were moved to Betazed, I don't think the President would still be able to declare a state of emergency on Earth.

Do we even know for sure the Federation is a democracy (which would seemingly be impossible)

The Council might operate on democratic procedures, where each member's representatives get a voice in decisions and policies matters. But that doesn't mean that all the members themselves would have to be democracies.

 

[TheGoodNews]

Left-wing emancipatory movements have always been centralized.

Hmm....Like Chiapas, which consist of five autonomous municipalities? Or the Free Territory of the Ukraine which was based on independent workers' councils? Or, maybe, even with what is purportedly happening in present-day Rojava:

"Rojava, in northern Syria, a Kurdish region straddling the southern Turkish border, is now a remarkable experiment of Bookchin inspired autonomous democratic confederalism. In the area's major urban areas-Aleppo, Kobane and Qamishli-popular assemblies and secular grassroots councils call the shots.....Put into practice, Kurdish self-government today has three central planks: the establishment of communes, the assurance of equal participation in all areas of decision-making for all faith and ethnic groups, and the strengthening of the position of women. Communes sort out everyday administration, provide electricity provision and infrastructure, advise on nutrition and liaise around ecological concerns. There are communal cooperatives, too, like bakeries and sewing workshops, like agricultural projects. Delegates from village and neighborhood communes form the basis of bigger city councils, and city councils are made up of representatives from all communes. There aren't any law courts either, but 'peace and consensus committees,' which try to resolve legal issues in novel, consensus-finding ways." Out of Shadows by Andy Merrifield

Surely you jest?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Earth is a atypical world in the Federation Membership.

No, actually, it isn't.

It holds the Federation's governing body, and it holds the HQ of Starfleet.

True, but that doesn't mean anything, in the grand scheme of things.

Earth is just another Federation member world. It holds no special status. It's not like the District of Columbia - the Federation has long since moved beyond such nonsense. Earth can hold the Federation capital, and Starfleet Headquarters, and yet still be just a plain old Federation member. There's no need for any of this "district" crap.

United Earth was a distinct governmental entity before the Federation, and it continued to be one after it. Earth's government didn't cease to exist once the Federation was founded. It still exists. United Earth is completely separate from the Federation government. Things couldn't function any other way!

And as for how the Federation President can declare martial law on Earth: So what? Earth is a Federation member, so the Federation - and the President himself - naturally has jurisdiction over it. (Indeed, is it not possible that the President of the United States can declare martial law in any one state?) It does NOT mean that Earth has no government of its own, because we all know it does. We've seen it. And it's just common sense. There's no more "taxation without representation", you know?

(For the record: In the Homefront/Paradise Lost two-parter, there was going to be a scene where Jaresh-Inyo "federalizes" local Earth government and defense forces, but that got cut for time.)