Trekonomics - soon to be released

[hux]

If there are planets within the Federation that lack the economic or technological means to "do things for fun" then one wonders why they joined the Federation at all.

What are they getting? Protection?

Wouldn't that make the Federation power planets (Earth, Vulcan, Andoria etc) an oligarchy?

 

[Ithekro]

That is all still in the unknown category. Star Trek wasn't a show about economics, so we didn't get a consistent thread as to what was and what wasn't just Earth verse the Federation, or other species that may or may not be within the Federations sphere of economic interest. Maybe the book will go into that. Maybe it won't.

 

[T'Girl]

people do the work they want to do.

So lot's of race car drivers, ballerinas, architects, musicians, park rangers, pilots, and veterinarians?

There must be millions and millions of Federation Presidents.

 

[horatio83]

It is no coincidence that the two non-Starfleet professions (did I miss any?=) we see in Trek are food-related, cook and vine-grower. It means that replicators are great machines but they cannot substitute good food and good wine and humankind still cares about that.

In which case, there are those who get to enjoy succulent, delicious real food while the proles have to make do with their replicated goop. Would this not cause resentment?

Besides, I thought you said people no longer desire luxury items.

You make the usual mistake of viewing the 24th century through 20th century lenses and wrongly assume that Sisko and Picard do what they do for the sake of money. This is obviously not the case, they do what they are good at and what they love Now of course you can ask how these goods are allocated, they are after all scarce. There isn't a restaurant and a vineyard in every corner. My answer is that I have no idea how Sisko deals with an overcrowded restaurant or who drinks PicardÄs wine. I can only exclude pecuniary incentives.

Same with the main characters like Picard or Kirk, they are not captains because of the prestige or the paychecks but because it is their "first, best destiny".
By your logic Kirk should be happy about his promotion to Admiral as it should impy a better, less risky desk job and a larger paycheck. But this ain't the 21st century anymore and all that matters to Kirk is that this is the wrong job for him.

About luxury items, I did use the phrase conspicuous consumption for a reason. You do not see the equivalent of Ferrari or Rolex or other nonsense in the world of Trek.
About good food and good wine, people have cherished that for hundreds of years. As good food is not expensive in our present world (usually it is cheaper than junk food) I fail to see why it should be a luxury item in the world of Trek.

 

[horatio83]

people do the work they want to do.

So lot's of race car drivers, ballerinas, architects, musicians, park rangers, pilots, and veterinarians?

There must be millions and millions of Federation Presidents.

First of all, if you love something you automatically try to be good at it. Sisko and Picard. Hell, anybody who is good at something is only good at it because he likes it. If you do not like a job and only do it for the paycheck you can at best be mediocre at it.

Of course there are still jobs for which you need an education and which are heavily screened. Lots of folks wanna become a Starfleet officer but not everybody achieves his goal. Take Simon Tarsis. He did not worry about losing his health insurance or his 401k, he was devastated because he lost what he viewed as the main purpose of his life.

If you read actual studies about unemployment and happiness you will discover that it is not just the loss of income that makes unemployed people depressed but perhaps even more so the sense of feeling useless and so on.

 

[Ithekro]

If there are planets within the Federation that lack the economic or technological means to "do things for fun" then one wonders why they joined the Federation at all.

Or they have a vastly different system of values (cultural or economic in nature), than Earth standard.

 

[hux]

You make the usual mistake of viewing the 24th century through 20th century lenses and wrongly assume that Sisko and Picard do what they do for the sake of money.

Nope. I made no such claim about their motivations. I simply pointed out the flaw in your argument which is "they produce good food and wine because there is a desire for it" whilst simultaneously saying that "people no longer desire luxuries."

If good food and wine isn't a luxury then why go to so much trouble to produce it? Why not simply replicate. Clearly it is a luxury by comparison so then the question becomes, who gets to have it?

This is obviously not the case, they do what they are good at and what they love. Now of course you can ask how these goods are allocated, they are after all scarce. There isn't a restaurant and a vineyard in every corner. My answer is that I have no idea how Sisko deals with an overcrowded restaurant or who drinks Picard's wine. I can only exclude pecuniary incentives.

So you have no idea how these goods are allocated but do know that it definitely isn't for profit? For some reason. That you're not sure of.

By your logic Kirk should be happy about his promotion to Admiral as it should impy a better, less risky desk job and a larger paycheck. But this ain't the 21st century anymore and all that matters to Kirk is that this is the wrong job for him.

Umm nope.

About luxury items, I did use the phrase conspicuous consumption for a reason. You do not see the equivalent of Ferrari or Rolex or other nonsense in the world of Trek.

Yet we see mining and labourers working for profit. Why do they want profit? To what end?

About good food and good wine, people have cherished that for hundreds of years. As good food is not expensive in our present world (usually it is cheaper than junk food) I fail to see why it should be a luxury item in the world of Trek.

It's a luxury item because it's better than replicated food. Simply saying everyone is happy with things but I'm not sure why but they just are isn't good enough. If non-replicated food is better than replicated food (and it clearly is) then it instantly becomes a luxury product by comparison. So the next logical question must be.....who gets access to it and who doesn't?

And why?

Or they have a vastly different system of values (cultural or economic in nature), than Earth standard.

Which only further makes one wonder, why did they join an organisation that is in conflict with their ideals and values?

 

[Ithekro]

What we know of the origin of the Federation was that is was a alliance of worlds based on mutual defense against the Romulan Star Empire. After that we have little knowledge of the benefits of the Federation outside mutual defense, combination of sciences and combined exploration of the galaxy. We don't know if their economies are united or individual per planet or species.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In my opinion it is not necessary to regulate replicators because people do not desire luxury items anymore so they will not abuse their replicator privileges. It is a world without conspicuous consumption.

People will always desire luxury items of some kind. It's human nature to do so. That will never change.

As for good food and wine: Perhaps Sisko's restaurant really does run for 'free'. Then why aren't there lines around the block, hmm?

(Actually, who knows, maybe there are! We've never seen the outside of the place... And if Sisko's food is as good as it seems, which it probably is since it's not replicated, I'm sure the lines really are backed way the hell up to get into the place. After all, if something that good is free, everyone will want it...and how could they get it?)

 

[Ithekro]

Not everyone like Jambalaya.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I guess the point is, how does Sisko's restaurant (and Picard's winery) survive without tapping into the replicator-based economics of the Federation? How do those businesses acquire what they need, to produce what they do? And what compensation do they receive for that?

 

[Ithekro]

I guess the point is, how does Sisko's restaurant (and Picard's winery) survive without tapping into the replicator-based economics of the Federation? How do those businesses acquire what they need, to produce what they do? And what compensation do they receive for that?

And that is why their economic system is likely beyond ours, since we can't explain it.

For all we know Sisko's take a cut from some Bolian trawler's clam and shimp catching operation each week before they warp off to deliver to other planets. In exchange for a packed meal.

Robert Picard, on the other hand, is just a stubborn old fart. Even when he was a teenager.

 

[horatio83]

So you have no idea how these goods are allocated but do know that it definitely isn't for profit? For some reason. That you're not sure of.

Not for some reason. You might wanna actually watch the episodes in which Picard and Sisko appear in order to understand their characters.

Umm nope.

Again, watch the respective stories. Otherwise this discussion is fairly pointless.
Kirk has a comfortable life as admiral but this does not satisfy him because commanding a space ship is his "first, best destiny". It is not as safe and as comfortable as the admiral job but it is what he is good at and HAS to do.

And what compensation do they receive for that?

You view a 24th century issue through contemporary lenses. Neither Picard nor his brother on the spaceship work in order to make good money. They work because they love what they do.

Have you never met a workaholic? He or she doesn't work like crazy because of pecuniary motives but because of love for the job. Like all forms of love it is often pathological and workaholic might neglect friends, family and so on.
Picard is an obvious workaholic and "Captain's Holiday" is partly about that.

We humans are undeniably to some degree hedonists. But we are also pretty crazy creatures and do things that do not make sense from a pure utilitarian-hedonist-pragmatic perspective. Nobody would have ever climbed up a mountain at high risk to his life if it were otherwise. For some people it is more trivial like caring about your children but we all need and yearn for something beyond immediate hedonist pleasures that seems to bit a bit transcendent, that gives our life sense, that makes us forget our mortality.

 

[hux]

Not for some reason. You might wanna actually watch the episodes in which Picard and Sisko appear in order to understand their characters.

We're not just talking about two career driven characters. We're talking about society as a whole. The idea that everyone has become an earnest, worker who is willing to overlook the fact that they receive no reward for their labour doesn't add up. Not everyone gets to captain a starship or run a vineyard. Clearly there are those in society with greater status, power and influence than others.

Regarding the food and wine. It doesn't really matter what their motivations for production are. What matters is that the produce exists and is clearly of a higher standard than the replicated stuff yet is finite in its supply. This again means that some people will have access to it while others won't. Another example of some in society with greater status, power and influence.

 

[Horizons96]

We humans are undeniably to some degree hedonists. But we are also pretty crazy creatures and do things that do not make sense from a pure utilitarian-hedonist-pragmatic perspective. Nobody would have ever climbed up a mountain at high risk to his life if it were otherwise. For some people it is more trivial like caring about your children but we all need and yearn for something beyond immediate hedonist pleasures that seems to bit a bit transcendent, that gives our life sense, that makes us forget our mortality.

Absolutely.

I can't wait to see this book!

 

[Ithekro]

Not for some reason. You might wanna actually watch the episodes in which Picard and Sisko appear in order to understand their characters.

We're not just talking about two career driven characters. We're talking about society as a whole. The idea that everyone has become an earnest, worker who is willing to overlook the fact that they receive no reward for their labour doesn't add up. Not everyone gets to captain a starship or run a vineyard. Clearly there are those in society with greater status, power and influence than others.

Regarding the food and wine. It doesn't really matter what their motivations for production are. What matters is that the produce exists and is clearly of a higher standard than the replicated stuff yet is finite in its supply. This again means that some people will have access to it while others won't. Another example of some in society with greater status, power and influence.

Just because someone makes a product for their hobby doesn't mean there will be a massive line to get said product. Even if there is a line, the tradition for lines is first come, first serve. Even when there is no money or status involved. If the item runs out, well it runs out. You live with that and move on, or wait until it is available again.

Picard's wine could be swill, but Robert likely wants it too be as best he can make it for his own purposes.

Sisko likely makes the best Jambalaya because he wants to make the best, originally for his family, and when they were gone, well, he still liked the stuff and I suppose it is hard to make for just one person, so he makes large batches and people come to eat it. First come, first serve. If you want to be sure to get some, come early. Some people just make stuff because they like to make people happy with what they made. Cooks are like that sometimes.

What we see most of the time in Star Trek are driven people that want to do well in what they do. Or they want to learn to do something better. The few times we see people that don't like what they are doing tend to be in a position because of punishment or lack of personnel (Voyager). Or they are in a position they want to be in, but their personality is going against what they want to do.

 

[hux]

Just because someone makes a product for their hobby doesn't mean there will be a massive line to get said product. Even if there is a line, the tradition for lines is first come, first serve. Even when there is no money or status involved. If the item runs out, well it runs out. You live with that and move on, or wait until it is available again.

I see no lines in Trek. One group of people are clearly going to have access to the good stuff while others aren't. It would be tempting to say that there's just enough real wine to meet the demand from people who want real wine but that's naive. If something is a superior product then people will want it. More than can be met by supply. This is something that Trek tries to ignore. It regularly suggests that there is a standardisation to life. Everyone is in receipt of a fair and equal life experience. But the fact that tailored clothes exist, that non-replicated food exists and that real wine exists (in small numbers) demonstrates that the Trek notion of standardisation simply cannot be true.

Picard's wine could be swill, but Robert likely wants it too be as best he can make it for his own purposes.

But how would you know it's swill? You would need something to compare it to. E.G good wine. So one way or another good wine must exist somewhere so you still have the same problem.

First come, first serve. If you want to be sure to get some, come early.

It's far too easy to say first come, first serve is the solution. This idea is predicated on the notion that the first to come will always be different people (therefore fair). What if they're not? What if the first people to come are always the same people. How do you guarantee that doesn't happen?

What we see most of the time in Star Trek are driven people that want to do well in what they do.

That's part of the problem. I just don't buy it. The idea that everyone is jauntily skipping to work with a smile on their face isn't consistent with what we see. DS9 showed us that there are people who don't do that. It showed us that there are people struggling. People willingly living lives outside of the utopia. People working in jobs that are nothing more than a means to an end.

Don't like it? Blame DS9. That was the show that began the process of looking behind the Roddenberry curtain.

 

[Ithekro]

That's part of the problem. I just don't buy it.

That is your problem, not mine. If you want to imagine inequality around every corner, that's your problem.

To the rest, that was the later writers not liking the idea of a utopia because it lacks conflict and drama. It can be seen as undermining the canon for the sake of drama, rather than just working within the rules provided by the existing series structure.

Yet other writers were come back during DS9 and put the older version back into place. So you have conflicting views of what is and what is not going on in Star Trek based on conflicting ideologies of the writers.

That is how it comes off, so that is how I see it. So, not my problem. It is yours.

 

[horatio83]

I just don't buy it.

That's your problem. The other folks here talk about Trek as it is. If the show doesn't match your political-ideological preconceptions perhaps it is the wrong show for your.

 

[hux]

That is your problem, not mine. If you want to imagine inequality around every corner, that's your problem.

No, it's simply stating facts. DS9 showed us that there is a contradictory nature to the way society operates. If that upsets you, surely that's your problem.

That's your problem. The other folks here talk about Trek as it is. If the show doesn't match your political-ideological preconceptions perhaps it is the wrong show for your.

What other folks? There are as many, if not more people on this thread questioning the economics than there are people who simply accept it. Perhaps if the contradictory nature of what is presented on screen bothers you, Trek just isn't the show for you.