Transsexuals in Star Trek

[Christopher]

I wonder however how they would react to somebody becoming a different species. Like say some guy in the 24th century says he wants to become an Andorian, would they allow it? Would there be a stigma associated with a desire like that? What would the Andorians say about that?

Interesting thought. Given how easy that kind of cosmetic surgery is in the 24th century, and given how similar so many humanoid species are to each other, I'd imagine that sort of thing might happen all the time.

We've seen a couple of cases in the novels where spies were surgically altered as deep-cover moles in alien societies and ended up going native, e.g. in The Romulan Way by Diane Duane and Brinksmanship by Una McCormack. But I don't think we've ever seen it done openly as a lifestyle choice.

 

[kirkfan]

So I guess in the 24th century. If you are say, a human male, you could become for example an andorian female, not only in appearance but also in genome. You would be able to have children, who though one hundred percent andorian would have half of their ancestry human. That has to be confusing, especially if you repeat that several times over a few generations and with other species.

 

[Kilana2]

I used to work in a medical office for Neurology/Psychiatry. And transsexuals were treatet there (psychologically). I think, even in the 24th century, despite of all the medical progress and possibilites, there´s still going to be a lot of counseling/psychotherapy involved. Sex reversal is nothing you do lightly and "overnight", even if there are methods to reverse the original procedure.

And, keep in mind the difference between "sex" and "gender". Some may live as a man despite having female sexual charasteristics and the other way round. So a physical transformation is not imperative.

 

[Orphalesion]

And, keep in mind the difference between "sex" and "gender". Some may live as a man despite having female sexual charasteristics and the other way round. So a physical transformation is not imperative.

Of course it is a much more difficult process mentally, I was really just trying to say the physical aspect would be easier than today, like Beverly's reconstructive surgery in "Genesis" that happened quickly, cleanly and off-screen with a 100% restoration of her old face.

I have never read much into the direction of sex vs. gender so I don't quite understand the difference and have used those words interchangeably. I have to read up on it.

 

[Christopher]

^Basically, sex is biological, what anatomy you have, while gender is more of a social and behavioral construct, whether you play a male or female role.

 

[Orphalesion]

Ah I see. Thanks.

 

[kirkfan]

I used to work in a medical office for Neurology/Psychiatry. And transsexuals were treatet there (psychologically). I think, even in the 24th century, despite of all the medical progress and possibilites, there´s still going to be a lot of counseling/psychotherapy involved. Sex reversal is nothing you do lightly and "overnight", even if there are methods to reverse the original procedure.

And, keep in mind the difference between "sex" and "gender". Some may live as a man despite having female sexual charasteristics and the other way round. So a physical transformation is not imperative.

I don't agree. If people could change sex for a couple of days, as Quark did. It would become a bizarre experience, but not one that you would need to analyse the s..t of, if you pardon my French. Jumping from a plane is no more natural.As we aren't born to survive a fall from higher than a few meters and yet that's a thing that people learn to do for pleasure and on a regular basis for some of them. If you had said that to someone from several centuries ago. He'd have said. Jumping from hundreds of meters high? Are you crazy? Even if you survive, it'll scar you for life. People in the 19th century thought that the speed of trains (back then) would make people either sick or crazy. I don't think sex change, if it can be reversed easily would be any different. I think some people would do it many times, for recreation (in the original sense of the word). The same way some people cross dress today during their time off.

 

[borgboy]

I could see that. Quark's sex change was done pretty quickly and casually, so if someone wanted to experiment with a different gender it could be done relatively easily. Most people wouldn't want to though.

 

[ThankYouGeneR]

Very interesting discussion.

 

[Christopher]

Most people wouldn't want to though.

Which is not even slightly relevant to the conversation, because we're talking about the people who would want to.

 

[Taelon]

Did Quark have a full sex change or just ear reduction surgery?

 

[Lord Garth]

It was full-on surgery. I think. I haven't seen the episode since... 1998.

I think it was better when it was Some Like It Hot.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Personally I never understood the distinction of sex vs gender. If sex change isn't about biology, what is it about? Society says males are supposed to have certain personality characteristics, women are supposed to have certain personality characteristics. But if you are biologically one and have the socially mandated personality characteristics of another, what do you care how you are perceived by intolerant jerks? Why does a biological man who has the personality characteristics of a woman need to surgically change his genitals if his intention is anything but to have sex as the opposite gender? I mean, why couldn't you be biologically male and have a typically female-typed personality without feeling bad about yourself?

I'm not even judging at all, I'm legitimately curious. Why does your anatomy need to match the cultural perception of your personality?

I'm 100% sure in the Star Trek 24th century they have the ability to actually change your biological gender.

 

[kirkfan]

Did Quark have a full sex change or just ear reduction surgery?

I don't think it was his ears they were looking at when he (she?) removed her clothes to prove that she was female. So I am guessing the former.

 

[T'Girl]

Personally I never understood the distinction of sex vs gender. If sex change isn't about biology, what is it about?

Your sex is your genitalia, very obvious (for most). Your gender is more complex, on a personal level it has to do with your individual psychological identity, what you know yourself to be.

But if you are biologically one and have the socially mandated personality characteristics of another, what do you care how you are perceived by intolerant jerks?

Just that ... you care. If it was just about satisfying jerks you likely wouldn't do anything, the fact that it might be "socially mandated" is meaningless. I had a psychologist tell me once that (in my case) it was a compulsion, a enthusiastic drive to have my "physical presentation" conform to my gender identity.

Why does a biological man who has the personality characteristics of a woman need to surgically change his genitals if his intention is anything but to have sex as the opposite gender?

It not just the surgery, althought that is a piece of it. There's also the hormone therapy which has a profound effect on how you feel and think, on how you experience the world around you on a personal level.

I mean, why couldn't you be biologically male and have a typically female-typed personality without feeling bad about yourself?

Because you feel "wrong" in your current physical form.

Why does your anatomy need to match the cultural perception of your personality?

Just that, it's a need, to bring your body and psych into alignment.

 

[Christopher]

Personally I never understood the distinction of sex vs gender. If sex change isn't about biology, what is it about? Society says males are supposed to have certain personality characteristics, women are supposed to have certain personality characteristics. But if you are biologically one and have the socially mandated personality characteristics of another, what do you care how you are perceived by intolerant jerks?

It's not about perception by others, it's about how you feel about yourself. It's about having the existence and identity that makes you most content.

Why does a biological man who has the personality characteristics of a woman need to surgically change his genitals if his intention is anything but to have sex as the opposite gender? I mean, why couldn't you be biologically male and have a typically female-typed personality without feeling bad about yourself?

Certainly there are people who do just that -- male transvestites, for instance. Most transvestites are men who are comfortable with their physiological sex (and are generally heterosexual), but who also feel comfortable adopting a feminine gender identity.

But here's the thing: People are different from each other. There's no one behavior that everyone has in common. Some people are okay with having a gender identity that differs from their physiological sex, but others prefer a sex that matches their gender and that differs from the one they were born with. That's their choice, because different is not wrong. There's no universal standard of healthy behavior; it's a matter of what a given individual is happy and comfortable with, and that varies from person to person.

I'm 100% sure in the Star Trek 24th century they have the ability to actually change your biological gender.

Biological sex, you mean. Gender is psychological and cultural (and grammatical). And yes, we know for a fact from "Profit and Lace" that that is medically possible.

 

[Timo]

How is "Profit and Lace" special proof here? Quark just donned a fairly extensive costume and got some hormones to match. We didn't learn that he would, say, fool a tricorder (Brunt sounded as if he knew Quark would fail, he just never got a word in edgewise) or be able to have children the way Ferengi females do. (Although UFP-level medicine probably should allow males to bear children in various ways, too.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kilana2]

There are already the "Hermats" in the New Frontier novels, sadly not seen on-screen. They have both male and female sexual organs and special pronouns to emphasize their dual-sex state. Which makes them one the most fascinating species around. They don´t need sex-change, as they already have both characteristics.

And there are the androgynous J´naii (TNG), who reject the concept of biological distinction of "male" and "female". "Deviant behavior" like the preference of one gender is sanctioned. Affected are brainwashed.

 

[kirkfan]

Hermathrodism is actually very common in nature, in the plant world it's more common than monosexism. Plus a few animals like the snails are normally hermaphrodites. For some reason evolution seems to have eliminated that trait from the mammalian species.

 

[borgboy]

How is "Profit and Lace" special proof here? Quark just donned a fairly extensive costume and got some hormones to match. We didn't learn that he would, say, fool a tricorder (Brunt sounded as if he knew Quark would fail, he just never got a word in edgewise) or be able to have children the way Ferengi females do. (Although UFP-level medicine probably should allow males to bear children in various ways, too.)

Timo Saloniemi

I'm pretty sure Quark had a full on sex change operation - whether it extended to the point that he could've conceived and born children we don't know, but he definitley had a female Ferengi body, not some kind of costume.