Transition and explanation of SNW into TOS technology

[Ray Hardgrit]

Creative people being creative? I am shocked by this, absolutely shocked!

Oh, wait, no I'm not. Roddenberry decided he wanted to reinvent everything from the ground up in TMP. I don't see any long soliloquies on how wrong he was or explaining the tech and uniform differences. Same with TWOK.

TMP had the benefit of coming after TOS, so all the changes were easily explained by time moving on and styles changing. Like they had in the real world. Well, all the changes except for the Klingons, that needed an episode of Enterprise to explain. The one time the movie featured something from the TOS era, the photo of the Enterprise on the wall, it stayed 100% faithful to its appearance in the original series.

There's just nothing there to complain about. Aside from the Klingons.

 

[fireproof78]

TMP had the benefit of coming after TOS, so all the changes were easily explained by time moving on and styles changing. Like they had in the real world. Well, all the changes except for the Klingons, that needed an episode of Enterprise to explain. The one time the movie featured something from the TOS era, the photo of the Enterprise on the wall, it stayed 100% faithful to its appearance in the original series.

There's just nothing there to complain about. Aside from the Klingons.

There's plenty to complain about. The Klingons are the tip of the iceberg. The near lack of an explanation for uniforms, crew changes and such. Tech updates? Nah, it's all a refit. Don't think about it.

 

[Dukhat]

TMP had the benefit of coming after TOS, so all the changes were easily explained by time moving on and styles changing. Like they had in the real world. Well, all the changes except for the Klingons, that needed an episode of Enterprise to explain. The one time the movie featured something from the TOS era, the photo of the Enterprise on the wall, it stayed 100% faithful to its appearance in the original series.

There's just nothing there to complain about. Aside from the Klingons.

Agreed. There's a logical technological advancement, along with other changes such as uniforms, props, sets, etc. from TOS to TMP. With the situation of DSC > SNW > TOS, it's quite different. It goes in the opposite direction (advanced, less advanced, and even less advanced.)

But having said that, the concept is the same. In making TMP, Roddenberry's idea was that TOS was only a fictionalized telling of the in-universe events that didn't actually happen the way we saw it, and that TMP was the reality. CBS/Paramount's attitude is also that TOS was just a fictionalized telling of the in-universe events that didn't actually happen the way we saw it, and that DSC/SNW is the reality. Or at least, that's my perception of how CBS is thinking. Which is why I don't believe that by the time SNW ends, it's going to look exactly like TOS.

Either way, TOS gets short shrift.

 

[Firebird]

If only for the blasphemy of it—I want the latest tech to do a Studio Ghibli version of Carpenter’s THE THING.

 

[fireproof78]

Either way, TOS gets short shrift.

That's ok. Nobody likes it anyway.

 

[Dukhat]

That's ok. Nobody likes it anyway.

The cruise ship full of fans I was on recently say otherwise.

 

[fireproof78]

The cruise ship full of fans I was on recently say otherwise.

Yes, I was being sarcastic because I feel that observation is painfully obvious.

 

[Daedalus]

Agreed. There's a logical technological advancement, along with other changes such as uniforms, props, sets, etc. from TOS to TMP. With the situation of DSC > SNW > TOS, it's quite different. It goes in the opposite direction (advanced, less advanced, and even less advanced.)

But having said that, the concept is the same. In making TMP, Roddenberry's idea was that TOS was only a fictionalized telling of the in-universe events that didn't actually happen the way we saw it, and that TMP was the reality. CBS/Paramount's attitude is also that TOS was just a fictionalized telling of the in-universe events that didn't actually happen the way we saw it, and that DSC/SNW is the reality. Or at least, that's my perception of how CBS is thinking. Which is why I don't believe that by the time SNW ends, it's going to look exactly like TOS.

Either way, TOS gets short shrift.

You'd be forgiven for thinking that. Kirsten Beyer certainly felt like things should be a total reinvention and abandonment of the traditional starship lineage, hence the 'D7' looking very different in DSC S1. The idea was chucked out by season 2 with the unplanned yet speedy introduction of the more classic D7 design (among other course corrections).

Initial intention is often forgotten about, and sometimes for the best. That goes for Roddenbery too. I never watched TMP thinking anything other than tech getting better in that world, as it does in ours.

I never really got into DS9 as much as TNG and VOY, but I'm enormous fan of Trials and Tribble-ations, and couldnt imagine Star Trek without it.

 

[Dukhat]

You'd be forgiven for thinking that. Kirsten Beyer certainly felt like things should be a total reinvention and abandonment of the traditional starship lineage, hence the 'D7' looking very different in DSC S1. The idea was chucked out by season 2 with the unplanned yet speedy introduction of the more classic D7 design (among other course corrections).

I heard that the 'D7' mention in dialogue was an error, and wasn't at all supposed to be linked to the CGI model they used.

 

[Daedalus]

I heard that the 'D7' mention in dialogue was an error, and wasn't at all supposed to be linked to the CGI model they used.

Its possible in that instance, but I understood it was deliberate. The was a moment when a Sech-class battlecruiser (the D7, again) was referred to as a Bird of Prey, despite a totally different design being used for the Bird of Prey. I suppose these things happen?

In 'The Art of Star Trek: Discovery' there's background information about a reimagining of the pre-Kirk era to emphasise a cinematic approach. I'm sure they mentioned gothic architecture and cathedrals as inspiration, and even H.R Giger was referenced.

 

[Albertese]

Here's how it is in my own head canon:

The TNG movie First Contact goes back in time to 2065 where Zepheram Cochrane and especially Lilly Sloane get a look at the future. When we get to Star Trek Enterprise we're not in a prequel to TOS, we're in a sequel to First Contact. Discovery and Strange New Worlds are sequels to Enterprise. So, naturally, things are going to be different and we shouldn't be too precious about tying things to TOS.

Besides, TOS is still there. I have my DVDs. Nothing CBS does to it now will ever effect that. It's finished and well-preserved.

--Alex

 

[fireproof78]

Here's how it is in my own head canon:

The TNG movie First Contact goes back in time to 2065 where Zepheram Cochrane and especially Lilly Sloane get a look at the future. When we get to Star Trek Enterprise we're not in a prequel to TOS, we're in a sequel to First Contact. Discovery and Strange New Worlds are sequels to Enterprise. So, naturally, things are going to be different and we shouldn't be too precious about tying things to TOS.

Besides, TOS is still there. I have my DVDs. Nothing CBS does to it now will ever effect that. It's finished and well-preserved.

--Alex

My one regret is I can't like this more than once.

Things don't stop existing because of a new show.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I don't want to get dragged into this again, but it seems to me you got two options:

1. Multiple timelines, when history is changed, the original timeline still exists.
2. One timeline, when history is changed the original timeline is gone until repaired.

Star Trek '09 was a multiple timeline story. There's no need for the Enterprise to chase the Narada back in time to prevent the destruction of Vulcan, as it's still there in the present. All the TOS episodes happened as we saw them.

First Contact was a 'fix the past, save the future' story. The Enterprise has to chase the Borg Cube back to prevent Earth being Borgified, as it's gone in the present. None of the TOS episodes happened as we saw them unless they properly put history back on track.

 

[UssGlenn]

Yeah, that ain’t happening. The best they could do with that would be to scan it into a CGI model, but then that would defeat the purpose

there are plenty fan made CGI models of great quality they could use.

I will say Doug Drexler did a pretty good job of that with the early episodes of Star Trek Continues before he left the series. Might not be as expensive as one thinks to ape the look of practical models in CGI.

the trick, as I understand, it is to scale your cgi model to 11 feet not 947 feet (or 442 meters).

 

[knightgrace]

??? Please explain.

 

[Dukhat]

there are plenty fan made CGI models of great quality they could use.

It’s not CBS/Paramount’s usual modus to use fan designs. That’s why they hire professional art department people.

 

[UssGlenn]

It’s not CBS/Paramount’s usual modus to use fan designs. That’s why they hire professional art department people.

Yes, but they are allowed to. Hence the Enterprise-G, though that was the actual design and not a finished CGI model.

 

[Tomalak]

Yes, but they are allowed to. Hence the Enterprise-G, though that was the actual design and not a finished CGI model.

And it was quite extensively changed from Bill's original model.

 

[Dukhat]

Yes, but they are allowed to. Hence the Enterprise-G, though that was the actual design and not a finished CGI model.

It’s a bit problematic. If a fan design isn’t copyrighted in some way, CBS would just be stealing a design without the artist’s permission, which they could absolutely do but it would make them look bad in the eyes of the fandom. This kind of thing happens with comics and it’s always ugly. But if a fan design was copyrighted (the Aventine, for example), then CBS would need to ask for permission to use the design, and would probably have to pay that artist to use it. So they would rather have their own people, who they already pay, to come up with something instead.

 

[Dukhat]

And it was quite extensively changed from Bill's original model.

Not only did CBS have Bill’s permission to use his Shangri-La design as one of the Titan’s gold models, Bill himself built the model for them.