Are you for real?
(I don't find Bakula ugly though, it's just that I always sensed some kind of a father-figure vibe from him)
Tpol-Archer
- Thread starter cyph
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(I don't find Bakula ugly though, it's just that I always sensed some kind of a father-figure vibe from him)
I don't think it looked even remotely like "old guys going after a young chick". 40's isn't "old guy" and "thirty year old" isn't "young chick".
I care about the "visual thing" and that's my opinion. If a romance doesn't make sense to me, how can I enjoy it? There is such a thing as a "couple looking good together" or a kind of "made for each other" thing that happens. I think it is particularly important when crafting a relationship for a television series in order to bond the characters and the relationship to the viewers. There is no way I saw those dynamics in Archer & T'Pol. They had a much different set of dynamics going on. Also, from what I have heard, Bakula said that very thing in last summer's convention in Las Vegas.
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Well, that's how I viewed it.
Captain X
Rear Admiral
It was more a matter of chemistry and personalities than looks for me, but I got the old guy/young chick vibe from it too. It just wasn't as big as the "you should think Archer is cool because he's drooling over the hot chick" vibe that turned me off to it. That and a complete lack of chemistry and complete lack of "show not tell" storytelling.
There was chemistry between Archer & T'pol, but IMO it wasn't sexual. They had strong potential for friendship, but they never quite achieved that 'Picard/Riker' level of trust and understanding [example: Riker manipulated Picard into getting that 'Jamaharon' doll when he went to Riisa ('get your best friend laid' - one of the greatest tokens of friendship ever in Trek), whilst T'pol gave Archer 'The teachings of Surak' for relaxation (a lousy attempt of Vulcan humor at best)].
Captain X
Rear Admiral
That's chemistry? Not in my book. (Ha!)
On a more serious note, while it was stated that they trusted and respected each other in various episodes, I never really saw that manifest between them, and there was nothing to show any kind of trust or friendship building between them the way Breaking the Ice did for Trip and T'Pol, or the breaking of preconceptions between Archer and T'Pol like Strange New World did for TnT. That's what I mean by showing and not telling - it's not enough for one of them to just say they trust the other. Sort of like the "sexual tension" thing too - Phlox had to say it in ANiS, but we could already see some of that for ourselves between TnT as early as the pilot.
On a more serious note, while it was stated that they trusted and respected each other in various episodes, I never really saw that manifest between them, and there was nothing to show any kind of trust or friendship building between them the way Breaking the Ice did for Trip and T'Pol, or the breaking of preconceptions between Archer and T'Pol like Strange New World did for TnT. That's what I mean by showing and not telling - it's not enough for one of them to just say they trust the other. Sort of like the "sexual tension" thing too - Phlox had to say it in ANiS, but we could already see some of that for ourselves between TnT as early as the pilot.
ENT demonstrated the trust, respect, and friendship between Archer and T'Pol on a number of occasions. There are some that spring immediately to mind, without even thinking too hard about it. Like, Fallen Hero, when Enterprise is returning the Ambassador to Mazar. T'Pol asks Archer not to do so, saying, In all the time I've been on this ship, I've never asked you for anything. I'm asking now. Don't return the Ambassador to Mazar. And Archer changes course without another word. She doesn't tell him what she's learned, and it goes against his instincts (having almost had his ship blown apart), but he does it anyway. The Seventh: T'Pol asks Archer to come along and give her support in her mission. Stigma: Archer does everything he can to convince the Vulcans to let T'Pol stay on Enterprise yet does not reveal her secret - because she asked him not to. Impulse: Archer will not leave T'Pol behind (despite her trying to rip his face off), and even though she's almost completely lost control, she tries her best to continue to function - because he asks her to. Shockwave: Archer leaves the ship in her command as he leaves for his likely death, which is a 180 degree turn from Broken Bow, where he just assumed she would undermine the mission and return to Earth. I also think that handing-over-of-command scene in Observer Effect shows the trust and friendship between them. There are more, I'm sure, but those are the ones I can think of that go beyond Captain - First Officer.
There were nice friendship moments between and among all three characters.
There were nice friendship moments between and among all three characters.
CX - I wouldn't have said it better myself!
bluedana - The examples you provided only showed that Archer and T'pol were willing to comply to each others requests, but they never showed us why.
At this point, I can't recall a single personal, confidential discussion between those two, that did not concern their mission. I'm talking about purely personal stuff here, something like Trip talking to T'pol about his dead sister and such. One scene in particular comes to mind - in "Harbinger" (which, I know, some of you rightfully hate), when T'pol was doing that damage control on Amanda Cole, Cole noted how Trip talked about Elisabeth a lot. T'pol definitely seemed hurt by that... By the fact that Trip shared this with someone other than herself.
My point, T'pol and Archer simply had no on-screen personal relationship whatsoever, and that's one of ENT's weak points. A Picard/Riker kind of friendship/trust would have been preferable, though I'd even settle for that Janeway/Chakotay thing.
bluedana - The examples you provided only showed that Archer and T'pol were willing to comply to each others requests, but they never showed us why.
At this point, I can't recall a single personal, confidential discussion between those two, that did not concern their mission. I'm talking about purely personal stuff here, something like Trip talking to T'pol about his dead sister and such. One scene in particular comes to mind - in "Harbinger" (which, I know, some of you rightfully hate), when T'pol was doing that damage control on Amanda Cole, Cole noted how Trip talked about Elisabeth a lot. T'pol definitely seemed hurt by that... By the fact that Trip shared this with someone other than herself.
My point, T'pol and Archer simply had no on-screen personal relationship whatsoever, and that's one of ENT's weak points. A Picard/Riker kind of friendship/trust would have been preferable, though I'd even settle for that Janeway/Chakotay thing.
Trip was always very feeling oriented and personal in his exchanges with T'Pol. I think a lot of the other crew just wouldn't go there because she was a Vulcan. I know I wouldn't start talking about my feelings around a Vulcan or asking after their feelings (!) But Trip just carried on naturally with T'Pol and I believe (because of her curiosity and weaknesses) that she was seduced by this. I think it was a very believable dynamic.
Good examples, bluedana. A few more: Archer's stubborn battle to keep T'Pol with Enterprise in "Shadows of P'Jem"--even trying to convince T'Pol to fight her recall--seemed to me to be about more than keeping his science officer on board. T'Pol being able to talk Archer back from his frozen paranoia in "Singularity" was, I think, because of his trust in her. And I liked the interplay and subtext of the scene between them at the end of "Shockwave II", when he tells her, "You put it over the top"...and then as he leaves, she tells him she still doesn't believe in time travel, and without missing a beat he says good-naturedly, "The hell you don't." Nice.
Captain X
Rear Admiral
But again, there was never any kind of build-up to it - we were just suddenly supposed to take the writers' word for it. And that's not even going into how pathetic their attempts at "romance" were and how more often than not it reflected on T'Pol in poor light, diminished her in character, or ended up coming back to hurt her somehow.
Very good analysis. I think that the way Connor developed the Trip character, you would expect he would take the more "personal approach" in his interactions with people, including T'Pol. One other factor with his interactions with T'Pol is that one could assume is that during the many, many "neuro-pressure" sessions that we did not see on screen, a more "personal" relationship developed during conversations between the two that would lead to the on-screen way they interacted. No one else in the series had that benefit.
People don't always see the same things in a story. I'm not going to agree with you that there was no friendship, trust, or respect between Archer and T'Pol because I know what I saw. And I know what I can relate to. I gave you examples of where I saw believable friendship between the two - not just mission related, and that reminds me that I left out First Flight, where T'Pol is very much a friend to Archer in his grief - and so did Hopeful Romantic, so it's just not true to categorically say it isn't there. I also see lovely chemistry and friendship at times between Trip and T'Pol, and I do not think the two friendships are mutually exclusive. People can have more than one close friend, unless they are in the sixth grade.
Trip T'Pol
It's my opinion that SB was an awful actor, it would have been difficult to have had to watch him take up so much screen time as the hero captain as well as lovey doveiness with T'Pol aswell. It's just my opinion.
I also think he was badly written. I found it difficult to understand why either Trip or T'Pol looked upto the character as much as they did. It was almost hero worship and I never understood why.
Although there have been episodes i liked: I loved the scenes with Trip and Archer in the episode Trip and Hoshi are dying of that incurable bug.
I also really liked Archer in 'The hatchery' although he was sprayed with alien chemicals I thought he was acting more rationally than the rest of the crew. Trip and T'Pol included. The maco's were over the top aswell, Reed I suppose was true to character though wanting to get one up over the maco's and all.
I truelly believe the writters had Trip and T'Pol pegged to get together from day one, and then held it off in season 2 in order to build an Archer T'Pol friendship, i don't think a triangle or sexual tensions between the two was really on the cards and the night in sickbay was just to get that idea out of the way. I didn't like how their 'friendship' developed either.
I read in a review someone saying that in order to make Archer seem better than he was they often resorted to writing the characters in a way that undermined them and that came acorss quite loadly for me in Archer's relationships with Trip and T'Pol.
Trip and T'Pol had chemistry, they are attracted to each other, they are deeply emotional beings by nature. Add to that they were both basically science geeks and mega physics/maths intellectuals and they made an excellent team, the only thing that went wrong was Vulcan society and T'Pol's and the rest of Vulcan's confusion as to what being vulcan actually was. take that out of the equation they'd a been married with 4 kids by the end of season 6.
if there had been a season 6 ofc
It's my opinion that SB was an awful actor, it would have been difficult to have had to watch him take up so much screen time as the hero captain as well as lovey doveiness with T'Pol aswell. It's just my opinion.
I also think he was badly written. I found it difficult to understand why either Trip or T'Pol looked upto the character as much as they did. It was almost hero worship and I never understood why.
Although there have been episodes i liked: I loved the scenes with Trip and Archer in the episode Trip and Hoshi are dying of that incurable bug.
I also really liked Archer in 'The hatchery' although he was sprayed with alien chemicals I thought he was acting more rationally than the rest of the crew. Trip and T'Pol included. The maco's were over the top aswell, Reed I suppose was true to character though wanting to get one up over the maco's and all.
I truelly believe the writters had Trip and T'Pol pegged to get together from day one, and then held it off in season 2 in order to build an Archer T'Pol friendship, i don't think a triangle or sexual tensions between the two was really on the cards and the night in sickbay was just to get that idea out of the way. I didn't like how their 'friendship' developed either.
I read in a review someone saying that in order to make Archer seem better than he was they often resorted to writing the characters in a way that undermined them and that came acorss quite loadly for me in Archer's relationships with Trip and T'Pol.
Trip and T'Pol had chemistry, they are attracted to each other, they are deeply emotional beings by nature. Add to that they were both basically science geeks and mega physics/maths intellectuals and they made an excellent team, the only thing that went wrong was Vulcan society and T'Pol's and the rest of Vulcan's confusion as to what being vulcan actually was. take that out of the equation they'd a been married with 4 kids by the end of season 6.
if there had been a season 6 ofc
That occurred to me as well. That TPTB wanted to establish that some boundaries should not / would not be crossed.
As for the development of A/T friendship, I wasn't crazy about it myself.
The A/T relationship had plenty of trust, respect, caring... What it seriously lacked was informality, which is an integral, crucial part of every true friendship. Actually, now that I think about it, T'pol never appeared entirely relaxed / comfortable around him (except for maybe Old T'pol from E^2).
IMO, had T'pol been a true, full fledged TOS/TNG-ish Vulcan, she would never have hesitated in acting on her attraction to Trip - she wouldn't have needed competition (plot device) that was Amanda Cole. It would not have been *logical.*
I think statement 2 is more valid than statement 1. SB was very good in Quantum Leap. I think that he was directed poorly and Archer wasn't written very well.
Excellent point! During the TOS/TNG time frame, it was established that a inter-spices relationship between a Vulcan and a Human was not only acceptable but in fact could be logical. I too, liked the way Vulcan's were protraied in Enterprise, they were far more interesting characters. I also liked Coto's explaination for the their change.
Yeah i Totally agree with you too middleman. I don't even think established interspices relationships would be a factor just that Vulcan's seem to know what they're about in thoes era's.
Well since they are both simply my opinions they are both Valid. yes i love Quantum leap but unless SB sticks to that character type he's flopping real bad, and only because he is likable. I was always concerned about him being cast as captain and sadly my concerns were bang on. Still for me it didn't do TOO much harm, still thought it was an over all great show.
Captain X
Rear Admiral
Indeed...
I know what I saw too, and what I didn't see, which was no building of any of that friendship, trust and respect that was supposed to exist between those characters
I'm going to guess that goes back to the first thing, too.
You listed examples of where we were told they were supposed to have those things between them, but even in those examples they don't really ring true because of the complete lack of chemistry between the actors. But no matter how you cut it, there we were never shown anything developing between them, one of them would just say that they trusted/respected/considered the other one a friend.
And what part of anything I or anyone said ever suggested that? I can't speak for others, but I said I couldn't see any chemistry between Archer and T'Pol, romantic or otherwise, and that I saw no real development along those lines. That's not saying that I even thought there shouldn't have been at least trust and respect between them, or even friendship, but the writing just didn't convince me.
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