Spoilers TP: Rough Beasts of Empire by DRGIII Review Thread

[Sci]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Uh...huh....

Well, with all due respect, that may work for personal judgement--but laws can't be written on grounds of personal judgement. Else, they are left vague--and vaugeness in the law is invariably exploited.

But we're not talking about the law. We're talking about whether or not it would have been a "good thing" for the Bajoran Resistance or for an anti-Soviet terrorist organization to use nuclear weapons on civilian population centers.

 

[Stephen!]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

So if Kira says they were all guilty, she must have been targeting actual occupation members or their families, nothing more. She wasn't just indulging in racial hatred of all Cardassians.

She did say, that they had a saying in the resistance "If you're not fighting them, you're helping them", so maybe they used that as "carte blanche" to justify any civilians deaths.

 

[Thestral]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Of course, the thing to bear in mind about Kira is that even though she viewed all Cardassians present on Bajor during the Occupation as being violators of Bajoran sovereignty, she didn't necessarily think all Cardassians deserved to be killed. Witness her reaction at the end of "Duet," when a Cardassian not guilty of any war crimes is murdered by a Bajoran.

Yes - and that's presented as a moment of epiphany. Duet's about Kira's changing understanding of Cardassians.

Only in location and scale.

Location and scale matter.

Not to the dead they don't.

First, the Jem'Hadar kill themselves, therefore it's not a second "genocide", per se.

If you drive somebody to suicide, you can be charged with murder.

If the Resistance targeting innocents was morally wrong, but tactically necessary, where do you draw the line between that and what should not be done?

You first never ever lose sight of the moral repugnancy and pretend it's okay. When choosing between two evils, don't mistake one for good.

Because they would be expected to be there.

And that makes them acceptable targets for murder because...?

So if Kira says they were all guilty, she must have been targeting actual occupation members or their families, nothing more. She wasn't just indulging in racial hatred of all Cardassians.

You know what happens when you make morally absolute statements like that about another group of people? Maybe - maybe - it doesn't start out as racial hatred, but soon enough...

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Well, with all due respect, that may work for personal judgement--but laws can't be written on grounds of personal judgement. Else, they are left vague--and vaugeness in the law is invariably exploited.

But we're not talking about the law. We're talking about whether or not it would have been a "good thing" for the Bajoran Resistance or for an anti-Soviet terrorist organization to use nuclear weapons on civilian population centers.

I think referring to something Kestrel said here helps explain my point--

You first never ever lose sight of the moral repugnancy and pretend it's okay. When choosing between two evils, don't mistake one for good.

When doing what is necessary, sometimes you have to do things that are, to be blunt, immoral. However, such an act is the lesser of two evils--what must be done to end a war or revolution in victory--and do so as quickly as possible.

If you drive somebody to suicide, you can be charged with murder.

You can be, yes. It depends on the context.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Because they would be expected to be there.

And that makes them acceptable targets for murder because...?

I'm not saying *I* accept them as targets, just that Kira might.

 

[DigificWriter]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I just finished the book, and really enjoyed it. I wasn't completely familiar with the current political situation of the Romulan state(s), but really found myself taking a liking to Donatra; I also really liked seeing Spock again, since he featured in the last novel I read (Before Dishonor) as well.

This will more than likely put me in the minority, but I liked what DRG did with regards to Sisko, and found it believable and understandable. I also liked that it was a mirror/echo of a situation described by Kirsten Beyer in Full Circle with regards to Tom, B'Elanna, and Miral (even though the latter situation is a hoax as opposed to being a literal separation, as in Sisko's case).

I also liked seeing Sela again, since she was always one of my favorite TNG-era antagonists.

The only complaint I have is that the 'flashbacks' to Ben Sisko's early Starfleet career and his personal encounters with the Tzenkenthi felt somewhat 'tacked on' and out of place, given that there really wasn't any attempt made to 'put them into context' with regards to the rest of the story. However, that's really a minor quibble in the grander scheme of things, and I really enjoyed the novel as a whole.

 

[Thestral]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I think referring to something Kestrel said here helps explain my point--

You first never ever lose sight of the moral repugnancy and pretend it's okay. When choosing between two evils, don't mistake one for good.

When doing what is necessary, sometimes you have to do things that are, to be blunt, immoral. However, such an act is the lesser of two evils--what must be done to end a war or revolution in victory--and do so as quickly as possible.

As a note: victory is not always the lesser of two evils.

If you drive somebody to suicide, you can be charged with murder.

You can be, yes. It depends on the context.

If the Jem'Hadar committed mass suicide because of the Federation committing genocide on the Founders, that would be an appropriate context.

And that makes them acceptable targets for murder because...?

I'm not saying *I* accept them as targets, just that Kira might.

Ah, gotcha.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I think referring to something Kestrel said here helps explain my point--

You first never ever lose sight of the moral repugnancy and pretend it's okay. When choosing between two evils, don't mistake one for good.

When doing what is necessary, sometimes you have to do things that are, to be blunt, immoral. However, such an act is the lesser of two evils--what must be done to end a war or revolution in victory--and do so as quickly as possible.

As a note: victory is not always the lesser of two evils.

When that victory means gaining or keeping freedom...then that determines the lesser of two evils.

If the Jem'Hadar committed mass suicide because of the Federation committing genocide on the Founders, that would be an appropriate context.

Well, again, Bartlett ordered an assasination--violating the law (technically, an executive order banning assasination orders, but that's splitting hairs)--so in some instances, he would agree that "murder" is justified. Hideous and, arguably, immoral, yes--but necessary, and therefore justified.

 

[James Cole]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

In the last two weeks, I've read Warpath/Fearful Symmetry/The Soul Key, then Zero Sum Game and Rough Beasts of Empire. Although the 5 year jump is unfortunate, DRG III did a good job providing the DS9 relaunch some room to maneuver should a post The Soul Key novel be commissioned.

For example:
-- DS9 "Season 9" (2377) begins with Warpath. Aside from the departures of Shar and Taran'atar, none of the other personnel changes take place until 2379 or "Season 11." This provides more than enough time to continue the original relaunch storylines with the Ascendants and the future of the Dominion, while at the same time allowing the characters to evolve (or not in the case of Bashir) over time.
-- I could just as easily see a trilogy being developed to cover the last two years of Kira and Vaughn in command of DS9, then an anthology covering what the various DS9 characters are up to between 2379-2381. Then with everyone scattered, you have character based books not location based books, which is what's already happening with the Typhon Pact. RBoE with the Kira scene provides a nice outline of how all this could slot in.
-- Elias Vaughn can be healed as soon as The-Plot-Demands-It.

Aside from the DS9 points, I liked the role the Tzenkethi played. It showed how without being a major power the species could so easily provide a problem to the Federation and how their society could be authoritarian in its own way.

Sisko's character arc was brutal, but it was well developed and true to what had been shown in the tv series.

I also liked how Spock was used. Usually when TOS characters are used in the 24th century novels, it smacks of small universe syndrome or TOS worship. But here Spock's storyline was true to both Unification and Star Trek 09 and developed the groundwork for explaining why he would be involved with the Romulan government trying to stop the Hobus supernova before being pulled back in time into an alternate universe.

My two main problems with the book were how other novels dealing with the Romulans were referenced and the way the Sisko-Tzenkethi flashback was included.

Usually when novels reference an episode, they give you a couple sentences recapping what had happened to jar our memory. This book does this when referencing episodes, but when referencing what has happened in other novels with Donatra and Tal-Aura, the IRS, the Watrii, the Remans part of the Klingon Empire etc it would have been nice to get a brief recap as well instead of having to look everything up on Memory Beta and be spoiled about other storylines beyond the specific reference. I can definately appreciate the recent thread on this BBS about the Trek books potentially developing their own continuity to the point that it can become less accessible to new or casual readers, especially if you are crossing series (like Titan) have say TNG fans verses DS9 fans.

And the Tzenkethi flashbacks were jarring and confusing. I realise it was supposed to be jarring and confusing at first for Sisko since it was his POV but some elaboration would have been appreciated. Did the Tzenkethi torture to death most of the crew of the crashed ship or merely kill them? Did they find out about the rare ore? Was the Tzenkethi that interrogated Sisko the one who went to Romulas and orchestrated Tal-Aura's fall (with the limp leg)? This should have either been expanded and clarified or left out for a future Lost Era book.

Here's hoping for some DS9R books in 2012...

 

[DigificWriter]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

^ I'm curious as to why you read Zero Sum Game before Rough Beasts of Empire, since, chronologically, they occur in reverse order (RBoE before ZSG).

 

[James Cole]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

^ I'm curious as to why you read Zero Sum Game before Rough Beasts of Empire, since, chronologically, they occur in reverse order (RBoE before ZSG).

I actually started RBoE first. One day I took my car in for oil change/smog and walked to a bookstore to kill time and bought Zero Sum Game. I was over 100 pages into ZSG when I got my car back so I just finished it first. Now I'm reading the first Vanguard book.

 

[DigificWriter]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

^ That's understandable. I've been in the middle of books before, but saw something else that looked interesting, picked it up, and got hooked on it.

 

[Stephen!]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

One thing I wondered: How was Sisko allowed to travel to Achernar Prime to meet with Donatra?

To reach the Imperial Romulan State, wouldn't he have to travel through the part of Romulan space owned by Tal'Aura?

Which should be a no-no, since she cut off relationships with the Federation in "A Singular Destiny" when she joined the pact and no longer required food supplies from the Federation.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

Well, it depends on what region of the old RSE became her domain.

He could have just gone through Klingon space to go around Tal'Aura's empire.

 

[Zorkel567]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

What is the best order to read this series in? Is the chronological order different from the publication order?
Thanks.

 

[Sci]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

What is the best order to read this series in? Is the chronological order different from the publication order?
Thanks.

Order is irrelevant. You can read them in any order. They're thematically linked, but they don't tell a single unified story.

 

[j3067]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

If you are an Elias Vaughn fan then reading Rough Beasts first may be more enjoyable (although I did not enjoy RBoE AT ALL). Vaughn plays a minor roll in RBoE and a more minor roll in ZSG. The events of ZSG occur after RBoE so the minor Vaughn subplot leaves fewer questions if read in that order. Other than that, there is nothing in the Typhon pact books that is dependent on the order in which they are read. The key word here is minor so it really won't make much difference if you stick with publication order.

I do suggest reading at least Vanguard #1 before reading Paths of Disharmony though.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

The events of ZSG occur after RBoE so the minor Vaughn subplot leaves fewer questions if read in that order.

Then again, having fewer questions isn't necessarily more enjoyable. There's a reason most mystery stories don't reveal the killer's identity until the end. I read ZSG first, so I experienced the Vaughn subplot as something that began as a mystery and finally got explained in RBoE. That's just as valid a way to tell a story as the alternative. So no, it really doesn't matter what order you read them in.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

I don't even believe you necessarily have to read all the TP books. If, say, you don't like Titan you can skip book 2 and not miss anything. I think books 3 and 4 will have the most lasting impact in trek literature and would recommend them if you had to choose though I thought 1 was the best read.

We had a nice discussion on Typhon Pact, especially book 3 at the startrek.com forums. DRG III really helped me appreciate the book with his comments in the thread on the subject.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread

The events of ZSG occur after RBoE so the minor Vaughn subplot leaves fewer questions if read in that order.

Then again, having fewer questions isn't necessarily more enjoyable. There's a reason most mystery stories don't reveal the killer's identity until the end. I read ZSG first, so I experienced the Vaughn subplot as something that began as a mystery and finally got explained in RBoE. That's just as valid a way to tell a story as the alternative. So no, it really doesn't matter what order you read them in.

Heck. Quentin Tarantino's Pulp Fiction has its stories arranged out of strict chronological order--but frankly, it's all the better for it. The order is thematic, not chronological.