Spoilers TP: Rough Beasts of Empire by DRGIII Review Thread
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
Fair enough, and your statements in that thread seem reasonable to me.
But I definitely think that there was a lot of disproportionate hostility over DRGIII's and the editor's creative decisions, and I don't blame him for not wanting to put up with it.
Fair enough, and your statements in that thread seem reasonable to me.
But I definitely think that there was a lot of disproportionate hostility over DRGIII's and the editor's creative decisions, and I don't blame him for not wanting to put up with it.
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
With all of the recent opportunities for Picard to accept an promotion, is this delibrate foreshadowing of him becoming an Ambassador in the STXI timeframe(or STO)?
With all of the recent opportunities for Picard to accept an promotion, is this delibrate foreshadowing of him becoming an Ambassador in the STXI timeframe(or STO)?
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
Thank you, Sci. My Neutral Zone comment above was meant more along the lines of, "If DRG thinks Trek Lit folks are harsh, it could be infinitely worse..." They eat their young over there.
Haven't checked that NZ thread lately. They could be consuming me over there as well, now...
Thank you, Sci. My Neutral Zone comment above was meant more along the lines of, "If DRG thinks Trek Lit folks are harsh, it could be infinitely worse..." They eat their young over there.
Haven't checked that NZ thread lately. They could be consuming me over there as well, now...
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
The novel certainly deserves to be scrutinized from that point of view. I don't know what was being said in TNZ, but I've read the thread here, and no one's remarks were out of line.
I gather it was unintentional, but Sisko is portrayed as a neglectful parent in RBoE. While one can certainly debate the merits of Sisko's reasons for divorcing Kasidy, there doesn't appear to be any serious justification at all for Sisko's abandonment of Rebecca. If a divorce or separation is necessary, the father is not absolved of his responsibility toward his children.
So, it may hurt the author's feelings, but it is a legitimate topic for discussion.
The interpretation of the prophecy that fuels the narrative of RBoE is hardly above criticism. On the contrary, it is something of a stretch to deduce from the Prophet's original words that Sisko would be able to nullify the consequences of his choice to marry Kasidy four years after the fact. Debating this point does not constitute an "attack" in any way, shape or form.
That certainly may be so, I have no idea. Since nothing that has been said here about RBoE strikes me as objectionable in the slightest, you are probably right that it is more a case of cumulative frustration.
The novel certainly deserves to be scrutinized from that point of view. I don't know what was being said in TNZ, but I've read the thread here, and no one's remarks were out of line.
I gather it was unintentional, but Sisko is portrayed as a neglectful parent in RBoE. While one can certainly debate the merits of Sisko's reasons for divorcing Kasidy, there doesn't appear to be any serious justification at all for Sisko's abandonment of Rebecca. If a divorce or separation is necessary, the father is not absolved of his responsibility toward his children.
So, it may hurt the author's feelings, but it is a legitimate topic for discussion.
The interpretation of the prophecy that fuels the narrative of RBoE is hardly above criticism. On the contrary, it is something of a stretch to deduce from the Prophet's original words that Sisko would be able to nullify the consequences of his choice to marry Kasidy four years after the fact. Debating this point does not constitute an "attack" in any way, shape or form.
That certainly may be so, I have no idea. Since nothing that has been said here about RBoE strikes me as objectionable in the slightest, you are probably right that it is more a case of cumulative frustration.
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
It's not just this thread, but others where authors are being accused purposely churning out crap just to annoy narcissists with ridiculously high standards or just being in it for the money. If that's not making it personal, I don't know what is.
It's not just this thread, but others where authors are being accused purposely churning out crap just to annoy narcissists with ridiculously high standards or just being in it for the money. If that's not making it personal, I don't know what is.
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
^Oh, believe me, I know what it's like to suffer personal attacks. Believe me...I don't blame DRGIII.
^Oh, believe me, I know what it's like to suffer personal attacks. Believe me...I don't blame DRGIII.
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
Can you be more specific? I ask partly because, while I don't sympathize with anyone accusing authors of purposely churning out crap, the "narcissists with ridiculously high standards" portion of your post sounds like an ad hominem attack of your own. It reminds me a bit of DRGIII taking umbrage at anyone qualifying his work as "absurd" or "ridiculous," while noting in the same post his growing fatigue in dealing with readers possessing "poor reading comprehension."
It is easy to see one's own snarky/negative comments as entirely justified while simultaneously getting offended by remarks made by others that are no more or less insulting.
Can you be more specific? I ask partly because, while I don't sympathize with anyone accusing authors of purposely churning out crap, the "narcissists with ridiculously high standards" portion of your post sounds like an ad hominem attack of your own. It reminds me a bit of DRGIII taking umbrage at anyone qualifying his work as "absurd" or "ridiculous," while noting in the same post his growing fatigue in dealing with readers possessing "poor reading comprehension."
It is easy to see one's own snarky/negative comments as entirely justified while simultaneously getting offended by remarks made by others that are no more or less insulting.
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
I can completely understand why DRGIII left the forums. In fact that thought has crossed my mind in the recent past. It's seems like as time has gone on people have just been getting meaner and meaner here. It seems like half of the threads that are popping up lately end up turning into uglier and uglier arguments that aren't even related to the book. And then we've got people ripping on the books, and then getting pissy when the authors try to defend there work. The positive has still been beating out the negatives for me for quite a while, but I can definitely see why someone would get tired of it. Especially when they are the author of some of the stuff being insulted.
I can completely understand why DRGIII left the forums. In fact that thought has crossed my mind in the recent past. It's seems like as time has gone on people have just been getting meaner and meaner here. It seems like half of the threads that are popping up lately end up turning into uglier and uglier arguments that aren't even related to the book. And then we've got people ripping on the books, and then getting pissy when the authors try to defend there work. The positive has still been beating out the negatives for me for quite a while, but I can definitely see why someone would get tired of it. Especially when they are the author of some of the stuff being insulted.
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
I've not read the novel yet and intend to once I'm finished reading Seize the Fire but wouldn't a decision like Sisko "abandoning his family" be made by editorial while it is the author's job to incorporate that concept into the framework of his story or do we know if that was DRGIII's decision? Seems like it would be a controversial plot point in either case considering the build up of Sisko and Kassidy having Rebecca at the start of the relaunch.
I've not read the novel yet and intend to once I'm finished reading Seize the Fire but wouldn't a decision like Sisko "abandoning his family" be made by editorial while it is the author's job to incorporate that concept into the framework of his story or do we know if that was DRGIII's decision? Seems like it would be a controversial plot point in either case considering the build up of Sisko and Kassidy having Rebecca at the start of the relaunch.
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
This is exactly one of the reasons why I don't post much here. Whilst I appreciate the authors taking the time out of their schedules with fans, it has come to the point - for me (and judging by a similar comment I've seen recently on the board, for others too) - where it feels like you aren't allowed to criticise the books or the editorial decisions that are being made for fear of being set-upon by the authors or die-hard fans for whom the authors can do no wrong.
As other posters have tried to state - if there is a negative majority opinion towards the books, then there are probably reasons for that. And it is the fans right to voice their displeasure - and not be attacked for it and made to feel that they're the unreasonable ones for voicing their opinions.
I understand why the authors might not enjoy their work getting slammed or misinterpreted - but this is a fan forum and that sort of thing should be expected. If the authors can't stand that, then perhaps it is a good idea that they avoid the threads pertaining to their books.
I am perfectly aware that I will likely get slammed for my views expressed in this post.
This is exactly one of the reasons why I don't post much here. Whilst I appreciate the authors taking the time out of their schedules with fans, it has come to the point - for me (and judging by a similar comment I've seen recently on the board, for others too) - where it feels like you aren't allowed to criticise the books or the editorial decisions that are being made for fear of being set-upon by the authors or die-hard fans for whom the authors can do no wrong.
As other posters have tried to state - if there is a negative majority opinion towards the books, then there are probably reasons for that. And it is the fans right to voice their displeasure - and not be attacked for it and made to feel that they're the unreasonable ones for voicing their opinions.
I understand why the authors might not enjoy their work getting slammed or misinterpreted - but this is a fan forum and that sort of thing should be expected. If the authors can't stand that, then perhaps it is a good idea that they avoid the threads pertaining to their books.
I am perfectly aware that I will likely get slammed for my views expressed in this post.
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
^
I'm not going to slam you Tenmei. I agree with you. I like having the writers interact with the fans on the level that they do, but I can see how sometimes that might create an environment that discourages people from expressing honest criticism or an honest critique out of fear that it might displease or anger the writer or set off fans who rush to the defense of the work in question.
I'm one of the people who strongly disliked Rough Beasts, as I expressed in my review. Has nothing against DRG. I loved Serpents in the Ruins and even in Rough Beasts I thought he added to his solid depictions of the Romulans. That being said, I had serious problems with the book and I expressed them. I don't see a problem with that, and it wasn't personal. DRG went in a creative direction I, and several others, didn't agree with.
From my understanding, DRG didn't mind the criticism of the book itself per se.
^
I'm not going to slam you Tenmei. I agree with you. I like having the writers interact with the fans on the level that they do, but I can see how sometimes that might create an environment that discourages people from expressing honest criticism or an honest critique out of fear that it might displease or anger the writer or set off fans who rush to the defense of the work in question.
I'm one of the people who strongly disliked Rough Beasts, as I expressed in my review. Has nothing against DRG. I loved Serpents in the Ruins and even in Rough Beasts I thought he added to his solid depictions of the Romulans. That being said, I had serious problems with the book and I expressed them. I don't see a problem with that, and it wasn't personal. DRG went in a creative direction I, and several others, didn't agree with.
From my understanding, DRG didn't mind the criticism of the book itself per se.
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
The problem is that alot of times people don't offer a civilized critique, they just rip on it and often get downright insulting to the authors. That is what starts to piss alot of us off. I admit I've gotten into it with people trying to defend the books, but as long as what you say makes sense and is stated in a civilized manner, I have no problem with people not liking things that I love.
The problem is that alot of times people don't offer a civilized critique, they just rip on it and often get downright insulting to the authors. That is what starts to piss alot of us off. I admit I've gotten into it with people trying to defend the books, but as long as what you say makes sense and is stated in a civilized manner, I have no problem with people not liking things that I love.
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
^Amen to that, JD--all counts.
^Amen to that, JD--all counts.
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
A lot of times people do offer a civilized critique, including many harsh critiques, which may of course remain civilized and still be harsh. Insensitive and baseless remarks no doubt occur, but they are hardly in the majority (even of negative reactions, let alone of all posts made on the forum).
tenmei is correct that a lack of tolerance on the part of many regular posters for minority or dissenting views is at least as big a problem for the overall quality of discussion on these boards as excessive negativity.
A lot of times people do offer a civilized critique, including many harsh critiques, which may of course remain civilized and still be harsh. Insensitive and baseless remarks no doubt occur, but they are hardly in the majority (even of negative reactions, let alone of all posts made on the forum).
tenmei is correct that a lack of tolerance on the part of many regular posters for minority or dissenting views is at least as big a problem for the overall quality of discussion on these boards as excessive negativity.
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
^Absolutely.
(It's even worse when the less scrupulous mods--the TNZ ones in particular--contribute to the "ganging up". *sigh*)
^Absolutely.
(It's even worse when the less scrupulous mods--the TNZ ones in particular--contribute to the "ganging up". *sigh*)
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
Ok, I won't deny that we can get oversealous in ourr defense of the books, but I've also seen plenty of times where someone has given a series of legitimate reason why they didn't like a book, those have been countered and then we've moved on. The problem is when people make it personal, on both sides.
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
I personally don't think the level of discourse was all that hostile or negative. I'm not sure why DRGIII felt the need to respond to every comment and reiterate the same defense for his updates to the Sisko character. He's a good author who has contributed a lot to Star Trek over the years.
Sisko was always a complicated being. Remember how cold he was at the start of his DS9 tenure? His world since has been consistently manipulated by the strange dieties of the Bajoran people (his very existance included). He gave the prophets and the Bajoran's everything, and finds nothing but pain wherever he goes. Think of how twisted and depressed somebody would be after that. I think he honestly believes he has to leave them alone to protect them, but at the same time, I don't think it appears as overtly selfless as DRGIII seems to have intended. I actually figured it was meant to be a controversial and questionable decision, one that he will ultimately regret and attempt to rectify.
Nobody wants to see Benjamin Sisko turn into a cold, tragic character in a no-win situation-- but I'm not sure writing him as a happy father and husband would have been fair to canon either given the direct warnings he was given from the prophets.
Frankly, I hope he can be written back to his family-- but I'm not optimistic. I'm already seeing paralells of the conflict between Vaugn and Prynn in Ben's future... and that is very sad. At the very least, Sisko knows how to immerse himself in his work and be a strong captain.
Some people can argue it was "out of character," but people I know in real life do things that aren't necessarily predictable all the time. What I would really like is for DRG11 to be given the opportunity to write the next peice in this chapter of Ben's life, so we can see the response and thoughts of other characters and the fallout at home.
As for DRG11 (whether you read this or not) remember that people disagree with the direction of how characters are written all the time. I still find Picard's cold, calculated and rigid interpretation of the Prime Directive in "Homeward" to be grossly out of character for him-- and many people disagree with me.
I personally don't think the level of discourse was all that hostile or negative. I'm not sure why DRGIII felt the need to respond to every comment and reiterate the same defense for his updates to the Sisko character. He's a good author who has contributed a lot to Star Trek over the years.
Sisko was always a complicated being. Remember how cold he was at the start of his DS9 tenure? His world since has been consistently manipulated by the strange dieties of the Bajoran people (his very existance included). He gave the prophets and the Bajoran's everything, and finds nothing but pain wherever he goes. Think of how twisted and depressed somebody would be after that. I think he honestly believes he has to leave them alone to protect them, but at the same time, I don't think it appears as overtly selfless as DRGIII seems to have intended. I actually figured it was meant to be a controversial and questionable decision, one that he will ultimately regret and attempt to rectify.
Nobody wants to see Benjamin Sisko turn into a cold, tragic character in a no-win situation-- but I'm not sure writing him as a happy father and husband would have been fair to canon either given the direct warnings he was given from the prophets.
Frankly, I hope he can be written back to his family-- but I'm not optimistic. I'm already seeing paralells of the conflict between Vaugn and Prynn in Ben's future... and that is very sad. At the very least, Sisko knows how to immerse himself in his work and be a strong captain.
Some people can argue it was "out of character," but people I know in real life do things that aren't necessarily predictable all the time. What I would really like is for DRG11 to be given the opportunity to write the next peice in this chapter of Ben's life, so we can see the response and thoughts of other characters and the fallout at home.
As for DRG11 (whether you read this or not) remember that people disagree with the direction of how characters are written all the time. I still find Picard's cold, calculated and rigid interpretation of the Prime Directive in "Homeward" to be grossly out of character for him-- and many people disagree with me.
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Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
Finally got the book and finished it within one day... I had heard and read such controversy about it on this board, it was agony waiting for the book to arrive
(I did manage to get Paths of Disharmony and read it about 2 weeks ago).
As for RBoE, I think the book holds up rather well as part of the Typhon Pact series and about the same quality as ZSG and PoD - I voted above average because I didn't think it was *outstanding* - maybe a "good" option would have been fitting.
I thought Sisko's arc was handled nicely, and (like it or not) fit IMO with his complex character and the circumstances he found himself in. The Romulan arc was okay, but I would have preferred a less-abrupt conclusion to the Romulan Civil War, after it was the focus of several Trek novels way back in 2005, including the "2 part pilot" for Titan.
Finally got the book and finished it within one day... I had heard and read such controversy about it on this board, it was agony waiting for the book to arrive
(I did manage to get Paths of Disharmony and read it about 2 weeks ago).As for RBoE, I think the book holds up rather well as part of the Typhon Pact series and about the same quality as ZSG and PoD - I voted above average because I didn't think it was *outstanding* - maybe a "good" option would have been fitting.
I thought Sisko's arc was handled nicely, and (like it or not) fit IMO with his complex character and the circumstances he found himself in. The Romulan arc was okay, but I would have preferred a less-abrupt conclusion to the Romulan Civil War, after it was the focus of several Trek novels way back in 2005, including the "2 part pilot" for Titan.
Re: Typhon Pact: Rough Beasts Of Empire review thread
Just finished it and thought it was a pretty average outing and a bit tedious in spots. I did like the direction taken with Sisko, thought the Imperial Romulan State subplot was resolved a bit too quickly.
I give the Typhon Pact series a forty percent grade or 2 decent books out of 5, Seize the Fire was so bad I counted it as two poor books.
Thought Spock's thoughts on traditional books funny considering this was the first book bought for my Kindle.
Just finished it and thought it was a pretty average outing and a bit tedious in spots. I did like the direction taken with Sisko, thought the Imperial Romulan State subplot was resolved a bit too quickly.
I give the Typhon Pact series a forty percent grade or 2 decent books out of 5, Seize the Fire was so bad I counted it as two poor books.
Thought Spock's thoughts on traditional books funny considering this was the first book bought for my Kindle.
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