Spoilers TP: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread

[Mage]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

In RBoE, there is no affirmation - or implication - that Sisko knew anything beyond 'You will know only sorrow'. Every time his motivation is brought up, it's always only this prophecy; there's not a trace of anything related to Sisko's stay in the wormhole (or any other source of information - unless you count depression and paranoia as such).

The 'Sisko knew more' is a forum theory, transparently meant to excuse Sisko, unsupported by RBoE.

But if you read Fearfull Symetry and The Soul Key, you would know yourself that it's NOT a forum theory, but from the novels. People seem to completely forget those two novels, where Sisko meets his counterparts from other universes, and things about what is to come are revealed to him.

I have read the books you name, Mage.

In those books it's shown Sisko knows of a prophets' meta-plan for a number of quantum universes, NOT anything relating to his personal life or future misery.

The book that confirms this is RBoE - by certifying that, regarding the 'only misery' prophecy, Sisko knew nothing beyond the prophecy from 'What you leave behind'. All his decisions are based on those words only, with no further knowledge (and we were privy to his thoughts).


The apologist argument - which REMAINS a theory from this forum - goes something like:
~'So what if his thoughts revealed no further knowledge? In his subconscious, he knew more - never mind the fact that this is nowhere established/hinted at in RBoE'.
The very definition of apologist fanwank - convoluted, unsupported arguments, disregarding authorial intent in a game to play 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' because one doesn't like what was established.

Who's talking about being an apologist? What he did was wrong, I'm not apalogizing anything. Most people aren't. We're explaining why we feel Sisko did what he did. But most of those people are also saying his actions are wrong.
Just because you are explaining someone's reasoning, doesn't mean you agree with it.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

But if you read Fearfull Symetry and The Soul Key, you would know yourself that it's NOT a forum theory, but from the novels. People seem to completely forget those two novels, where Sisko meets his counterparts from other universes, and things about what is to come are revealed to him.

I have read the books you name, Mage.

In those books it's shown Sisko knows of a prophets' meta-plan for a number of quantum universes, NOT anything relating to his personal life or future misery.

The book that confirms this is RBoE - by certifying that, regarding the 'only misery' prophecy, Sisko knew nothing beyond the prophecy from 'What you leave behind'. All his decisions are based on those words only, with no further knowledge (and we were privy to his thoughts).


The apologist argument - which REMAINS a theory from this forum - goes something like:
~'So what if his thoughts revealed no further knowledge? In his subconscious, he knew more - never mind the fact that this is nowhere established/hinted at in RBoE'.
The very definition of apologist fanwank - convoluted, unsupported arguments, disregarding authorial intent in a game to play 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' because one doesn't like what was established.

Who's talking about being an apologist? What he did was wrong, I'm not apalogizing anything. Most people aren't. We're explaining why we feel Sisko did what he did. But most of those people are also saying his actions are wrong.
Just because you are explaining someone's reasoning, doesn't mean you agree with it.

If Sisko really did spare his family greater pain (which would come if he stayed with them), a fact objectively certain, he's as immaculate a character as ever.

The forum theory we're discussing emerged - and was repeated - for this one specific purpose (you only need to read the posts that support it - see Christopher's from this thread, for example). Indeed, that is the only purpose of this fanwank; it has no relevance, it changes nothing beyond it.


Too bad the fanwank is not in the least supported.
If RBoE isn't enough for you:
DRG3 discussed RBoE on this forum, bickering about Sisko's development. Feel free to read the thread yourself - and see how he didn't intend for Sisko to have information beyond the prophecy.

Well, you can always hope that Christopher will get to write a Sisko book and make part of trek lit that Sisko actually knew etc - to wash Sisko's trollish character development away.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

SO JD, you seem to be a Spider-man fan. Can I get your opinion on Spider-man and his deal with the devil?

I haven't read the story arc in question myself, but I do think it was a bad choice on the creator's part, much like I do with the current Sisko arc. In story though, and given both the situation and the previous behavior and characterization of Peter Parker/Spider-Man I think it makes sense that the character did what he did, much like with Sisko.

Well, there I disagree altogether. I don't think it makes any sense in-story that Peter Parker would make the choice he did, or that he'd be left with no other options in the first place (given how many ways there are in the Marvel universe for superscience or sorcery to reverse death). Sisko's actions and their context make far more sense.

 

[Sci]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Bicker, bicker, bicker. Equivocate, condemn, call the author arrogant, call people who don't condemn the author's choices "apologists," blah blah blah.

Look at how tense and hostile this thread has become, just among us fans. Can you really blame DRGIII for deciding that this sort of nonsense isn't worth putting up with?

 

[Sho]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^ Blame, no, but part of me wishes he'd engage the debate just because I'd be interested in his thoughts on the matter. Though I realize most authors are content letting the work speak for themselves, or don't want to bereave the readers of their freedom to interpret it as they choose. As such I'd respect silence even if this thread were a friendlier read, though my curiosity remains.

 

[Mage]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Yay, just saw that this one's available through bol.com. Ordering it now.

 

[Christopher]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^ Blame, no, but part of me wishes he'd engage the debate just because I'd be interested in his thoughts on the matter. Though I realize most authors are content letting the work speak for themselves, or don't want to bereave the readers of their freedom to interpret it as they choose. As such I'd respect silence even if this thread were a friendlier read, though my curiosity remains.

David did offer his thoughts on the debate back in the RBoE review thread, which was linked above. He made 34 posts in that thread over the course of more than a month, the first on December 22, 2010, and the last on January 25, 2011. That's an average of nearly one post per day, up until the point that he walked away. Here's a list of them (in reverse order):

http://www.trekbbs.com/search.php?searchid=5915368

As far as I've heard, nothing that's been said about RBoE in this thread is new. It was all covered in the original thread, and David offered plenty of thoughts on the subject. And when he did leave the thread, he invited people to continue contacting him on Facebook or by e-mail. So he certainly wasn't committed to silence.

 

[Sho]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

So I went digging, and these seem to be DRGIII's definitive post on this topic:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4632440&postcount=106
http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4649599&postcount=151

To sum it up, the author's take on it is that Sisko strongly believes the Prophet's prophecy, and that events following the enunciation of the prophecy have lead him to believe that things are on a trajectory towards serious harm coming to his family. DRGIII also explicitly leaves open the door to Sisko's assessment being wrong, and recalls his battered emotional state at the time he reaches his decision.

Thus on the point of whether Sisko knew "something more" than the prophecy, Sisko apparently takes events following its enunciation as this "something more". DRGIII explicitly says that Sisko is not acting on a vague notion of future "sorrow", but is acting on the realization that something harmful is going to happen.

Critics may well argue that the work doesn't substantiate this sufficiently, and chosing to make up one's own mind based solely on the work is certainly fair game in my book. However, in the context of a forum debate it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to ignore a reliable source of further information - the author. And it especially doesn't make much sense to accuse an author of intentions he denies having.

As for the whole apologetist thing, I think there seems to be a consensus that Sisko may well have made a bad call here - but he may also turn out to have made the right one.

Finally, this is the first time I've read posts by DRGIII, and I'm sad he's no longer active here. His posts seem to be a consistently nice read and he was very forthcoming with information.

 

[JD]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

But if you read Fearfull Symetry and The Soul Key, you would know yourself that it's NOT a forum theory, but from the novels. People seem to completely forget those two novels, where Sisko meets his counterparts from other universes, and things about what is to come are revealed to him.

I have read the books you name, Mage.

In those books it's shown Sisko knows of a prophets' meta-plan for a number of quantum universes, NOT anything relating to his personal life or future misery.

The book that confirms this is RBoE - by certifying that, regarding the 'only misery' prophecy, Sisko knew nothing beyond the prophecy from 'What you leave behind'. All his decisions are based on those words only, with no further knowledge (and we were privy to his thoughts).


The apologist argument - which REMAINS a theory from this forum - goes something like:
~'So what if his thoughts revealed no further knowledge? In his subconscious, he knew more - never mind the fact that this is nowhere established/hinted at in RBoE'.
The very definition of apologist fanwank - convoluted, unsupported arguments, disregarding authorial intent in a game to play 'see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil' because one doesn't like what was established.

Who's talking about being an apologist? What he did was wrong, I'm not apalogizing anything. Most people aren't. We're explaining why we feel Sisko did what he did. But most of those people are also saying his actions are wrong.
Just because you are explaining someone's reasoning, doesn't mean you agree with it.

Exactly. Just because you can defend a character's action, and think they make sense, doesn't neccissarily mean you think they were good. There are plenty of actions taken in real world situations, where even though something is wrong, you can still understand and defend the motivations for doing it.

 

[toughlittleship]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I'm just glad that Pocket Books still care about DS9 to feature novels with DS9 characters, regardless of the storylines. I've heard a lot of people talking about their reasons for walking away from Star Trek literature; without DS9 I would do just that.

 

[Thestral]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I'm confused that this misunderstanding persists. It's not a "vague sense" of anything. Sisko lived with beings who existed in the future. Who didn't just have a sense of what the future might hold, but who directly experienced what actually would happen. While he lived with the Prophets, he saw the future too. And while he doesn't remember specifics, he remembers knowing for a fact that they'd be in danger if he stayed. Why is that so difficult to comprehend? It was spelled out quite clearly in the book, I thought.

I don't remember if it's spelled out clearly in Rough Beast or not, but

Spoiler: Plagues spoiler

it is in Plagues of Night

.

But even if he did, that's all just a bunch of noise because the Prophets, and Sisko when he was with them, experience all possible future realities and can see what decisions will lead to each. The Star Trek future isn't set in stone but is a myriad of possibilities, hence All Good Things. You're telling me that all future timelines where Sisko and Kasidy were together end in her death and his sorrow? Well actually - yes, they do I suppose, because she will eventually die. But even then, not necessarily before him, so no.

Spoiler: Plagues spoiler

I know this is what Plagues of Night says, but that just doesn't make sense.

And for that matter, what led to this realization after a matter of years away from the wormhole when he's been raising Rebecca with Kasidy? He should've had this fresh in mind mind as soon as he popped out of the wormhole in Unity; hence why I think it's a matter of depression-induced wrong choices.

Maybe he didn't, but that's not the issue. The key question isn't whether what Sisko did was right. Well-drawn characters are allowed to make mistakes, and that's part of what makes them interesting. The issue at the core of these persistent and very repetitive BBS debates is whether Sisko's actions were in character for him -- whether it was believable that a Ben Sisko in the circumstances he was placed in, with the knowledge and convictions that he had, would have chosen that course of action, right or wrong. So the key question here is about his motives, because that's what's being attacked and misrepresented in these debates. I'm far from convinced that he did the right thing, but I think that under the circumstances, he acted in character and in what he believed was good faith. He chose to sacrifice himself out of his love for his family. Nobody's saying that what he did was nice and beautiful and satisfying. But he was convinced it was the lesser of two evils, that the alternative was even worse.

Well on the bolded part we can agree, but my objection is to any possibility that he's not wrong. This isn't Terminator (the first one, that is). And my point is that even with his motivations being for the best his actions are a case of abandonment.

The 'Sisko knew more' is a forum theory...

Spoiler: Plagues of Night spoiler

That's no longer true, if it ever was to begin with.

Well, there I disagree altogether. I don't think it makes any sense in-story that Peter Parker would make the choice he did, or that he'd be left with no other options in the first place (given how many ways there are in the Marvel universe for superscience or sorcery to reverse death). Sisko's actions and their context make far more sense.

Yup.

Look at how tense and hostile this thread has become, just among us fans. Can you really blame DRGIII for deciding that this sort of nonsense isn't worth putting up with?

You know what I'd like to see? More discussion of Plagues, has anybody else read it?

Spoiler: Plagues comments

Ro: awesome, got some real nice character moments. Kamemor: awesome. T'Jul: great new character, especially the way she outmaneuvers Laas. Speaking of Laas, wow... pretty brutal scene of him with the Breen engineer. I wonder what the state of the Dominion in general is? His talk of needing to "protect" (through gritted teeth) monoforms makes me think Odo's still around keeping him in line. Vedek Kira works really well actually. Ben and Rebecca was adorable. And the end... did DRG really blow up the station and most of the cast? Daaamn....

 

[Christopher]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

The Star Trek future isn't set in stone but is a myriad of possibilities, hence All Good Things. You're telling me that all future timelines where Sisko and Kasidy were together end in her death and his sorrow?

Of course not. I've already said -- what's at issue here was not whether Sisko's actions were objectively right (because it's ridiculous to insist that fictional characters should never be allowed to make mistakes), but whether his motives were in character and understandable. The point is that he was absolutely convinced that he had to leave his family in order to protect them, therefore it's a damn lie to call him a deadbeat who abandoned them for selfish reasons. Even if what he did was wrong, he did it for what he believed were the right reasons. How many times does that have to be repeated?

And for that matter, what led to this realization after a matter of years away from the wormhole when he's been raising Rebecca with Kasidy? He should've had this fresh in mind mind as soon as he popped out of the wormhole in Unity; hence why I think it's a matter of depression-induced wrong choices.

Maybe you should try re-reading RBoE with that question in mind. From what David said in his responses I linked to earlier, it was the sequence of events that had unfolded in the years between Unity and RBoE that convinced him that future he'd been warned about was coming to pass. David conceded that not getting to see that whole set of events may have made that less clear to the audience, but that the seeds for it had been laid in earlier DS9 novels and in the series itself. At least you should read those posts of David's that I linked to, let him answer the questions for you.

Well on the bolded part we can agree, but my objection is to any possibility that he's not wrong.

Again, nobody is claiming his choices were completely right, just that he sincerely believed they were necessary. We're objecting to the accusations that his motives were somehow selfish or callous toward his family, because that is a profound misreading of the text. It is possible to disagree with someone's choices but still believe in his good intentions.

 

[Sho]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

(FWIW, Christopher's link won't actually work for anyone (you can't link to search result pages that way for implementation reasons I'll spare you my usual big technobabble monologue on now), but the individual posts I linked to are exactly those that go into these matters.)

 

[Christopher]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Oh, sorry. I wasn't sure whether the search link would work, but it seemed to. Maybe that was just for me, or just temporarily. Anyway, just go to the RBoE review thread, click on "Search This Thread" in the upper right corner, click on "Advanced Search" in the popup menu, and then enter "David R. George III" into the User Name field.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

i have to ask, is it really necessary to post stuff about Plagues of Night in spoiler code when the thread has spoilers in the tittle?

 

[DimesDan]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

i have to ask, is it really necessary to post stuff about Plagues of Night in spoiler code when the thread has spoilers in the tittle?

Apparently yes.

 

[Thestral]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Of course not. I've already said -- what's at issue here was not whether Sisko's actions were objectively right (because it's ridiculous to insist that fictional characters should never be allowed to make mistakes), but whether his motives were in character and understandable. The point is that he was absolutely convinced that he had to leave his family in order to protect them, therefore it's a damn lie to call him a deadbeat who abandoned them for selfish reasons. Even if what he did was wrong, he did it for what he believed were the right reasons. How many times does that have to be repeated?

We're objecting to the accusations that his motives were somehow selfish or callous toward his family, because that is a profound misreading of the text. It is possible to disagree with someone's choices but still believe in his good intentions.

I think what it comes down to as the source of our disagreement at least is what you see as mutually incompatible - his motives being right and his actions being abandonment - I see as not incompatible. Intentions matter, they matter vitally, but so do the results that actions have on other people.

Maybe analogizing to take it out of this particular context? Let's suppose I say something which you find very insulting or hurtful, but which I didn't intend as such and my motives for saying it weren't negative. I can't just say "Well, my motives weren't to hurt you, therefore you weren't hurt" - hurt is a personal thing and my motives aren't what determine that. Now, I can say "I'm sorry, it wasn't my intent to hurt you, here's what I actually meant and I hope you can see that," but the action I took affected you in a way independent of my intent. Pretending you weren't insulted or that you don't have the right to be insulted is missing the point. Intent hopefully correlates with reception, but not always. That's why I say that, while Sisko's motive wasn't to abandon Kas, his actions were that in fact, in the same way that while my intent wasn't to insult you my action was in fact insulting. Does that make sense?

Thanks for linking back Dave's posts, btw... well, and Sho.

i have to ask, is it really necessary to post stuff about Plagues of Night in spoiler code when the thread has spoilers in the tittle?

Apparently yes.

I'd rather be safe and not get yelled at than sorry, but I'd be happy to talk openly about Plagues.

I gave it "Outstanding" because while I still have my quibbles overall I thought it was excellent and the storylines involving all the other characters were great - and I mostly enjoyed the Sisko one too and can't deny it was really well-written.

 

[RTOlson]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

So, getting back to discussing the current book…

Regarding spoilers, the last chapter of this book is pretty stunning and climatic so I think spoiler code is appropriate. It's not so much a cliffhanger as an utter game changer.

Spoiler: General observation on the end of the book

While the tension is dramatically ramped up as the book builds to its conclusion, the reader is given just a little glimmer of hope that the event isn't going to pass … and then it does.

My first thought when I read the last line was "WTF."

I read the book cover to cover in one sitting. It was pretty exciting overall, although it had to recap a lot of previous activity. Considering that people don't buy all the books (especially the eBook that I didn't know existed), I thought the exposition was OK and it better helped shape the timeline of the previous Typhon Pact books. It also did a good job of presenting events detailed in the previous books from the perspective of other participants (such as the raid on Utopia Planitia).

The story incorporated many of the elements of previous DS9 stories that I liked, even touching on the previous exploration of the Gamma Quadrant and the fallout from the "Worlds of Deep Space Nine" series. I thought it involved nearly all contemporary Trek crews pretty well, although neither Voyager nor the Aventine crews make appearances.

Oh, and since it seems to be a huge topic of discussion, I think the novel handled the repercussions from Sisko's decision to leave his family reasonably well (which contributes to the ending). It's not perfect, but the whole arc of the Prophets not talking to Sisko still seems a little odd to me.

The book provides some tantalizing glimmers of what happened on Deep Space Nine before the Borg invasion, but no conclusive answers. Taran'atar, the Even Odds, Iliana Ghemor and the Ascendants get passing mentions, as well as an additional reference to the disaster befalling one of Bajor's moons. I'd like future stories to address these elements and I hope writers will get to tackle them someday.

Overall, I think this book incorporated much of the intrigue of the previous Typhon Pact novels, but doesn't get bogged down in it. Instead, it adds an epic scope of developments covering three quarters of the galaxy. I definitely would like to read more.

 

[Mage]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

It's post like the one above that make it really hard for me to not click the spoiler tags... 5-7 days before this book arrives.

 

[Sci]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

All I know is, I'm kind of glad everyone's kept things behind the spoiler codes in spite of the warning in the title, because I'm ordering Plagues of Night for my brand-new Nook instead of trying to snag a physical copy... and my eBook won't arrive until tomorrow!