Spoilers TP: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread

[Travis Chesser]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

David is a HUGE DS9 fan. He's not going to wipe out the cast in one fell swoop.

Yeah, he's not that other David.

Haha, good point. And with that David, if you're speaking of Peter, I wasn't even bothered about the fact that he kills of characters. In fact, with Before Dishonor, I thought it was gutsy that they did what they did. What bothered me about Before Dishonr, was that he clearly had not read or been much informed about the lead up with new characters on the Enterprise and his writing clearly showed that with the security chief (forgot his name) and T'Lana he didn't know their characterization and then by the end of the book the whole plot turned ridiculous. I didn't dislike Before Dishonor because he killed Janeway, but because it wasn't good writing (and I actually like Peter David too) and he didn't have a good grasp of characters. DRG3 on the other hand knows these characters inside and out, and writes them incredibly, yes, even Sisko and his decision. I am a firm believer that if these plotlines had happened on the show no one would be bitching, they're just doing it because its a book and they refuse to wait and see a larger tapestry of events that, with a show, you know is coming in the next episode or next season. But with all the moaning about RBoE, hardly anybody said, "You know what, lets wait and see what he has planned next, this must be going somewhere." They just crucified David for destroying their "property". And as far as people saying DS9 has been shafted and now the ending of PoN shafts it more, clearly hasn't been appreciating Typhon Pact the way I have. DS9 is my first love and joy in Star Trek, and yes I want them to continue the missing storyline set up in the Relaunch, but come on, Typhon Pact has been more DS9 element heavy than any of the other series. Ezri, Julian, and Serena get their own book. The Andorian crisis and Shar are dealt with. Sisko is all over the place, and now PoD putting all the focus back on DS9.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

David is a HUGE DS9 fan. He's not going to wipe out the cast in one fell swoop.

Yeah, he's not that other David.

Haha, good point. And with that David, if you're speaking of Peter, I wasn't even bothered about the fact that he kills of characters.

No, not that David. I meant "Mack".

 

[Travis Chesser]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Whoops! Then ignore my entire post.
I do love David Mack though too.

 

[Frontier]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I don't understand this. Why would you not be able to go on? Even if it IS completely gone, which I'm not sure it is, the cover for the next book shows something there, so even in the worst they'll be rebuilding it. What is the big deal? The Enterprise was destroyed and they got a new one. Did you not go on after that? I just do not comprehend this whole notion of quitting something before you see a final result. I mean, come on, as much as you all hate him here and bashed him to death after RBoE, David is a HUGE DS9 fan. He's not going to wipe out the cast in one fell swoop. This was a shocking moment, yes, but I doubt it means the end of DS9. Stop being so alarmist.

I, personally, did not bash DRG for RBoE. I stated how much I disliked the book and how it seemed to totally shit all over Ben Sisko, but I never bashed him or even the writing of the book, and I only weighed in on the whole thing once myself. So I'm not part of the "gang-up" or whatever some want to call it that drove him from the board, if such happened. I don't visit around here too often, only poke my head in now and then.

As for my not wanting to go on reading Trek lit if they destroyed DS9?

(Which I'm hoping to high hell they haven't! Not the least of which is because Kira, Bashir, Quark, Ro and Kassidy all might be dead if so)

It's honestly just the straw that breaks the camels back, IMO.

I have not been happy with the treatment DS9 and VGR have both received in the past half-dozen years. I strongly disliked the killing of Janeway. I was upset with Sisko's departure from character in RBoE but I do feel this novel does much to mend that and really drive home how torturous it is to Sisko to do such acts.

But destroying DS9? It's like killing another favorite character. And - pending finding out for sure how it all turns out - I don't know that I'd enjoy reading the books much beyond that point because so much has been taken away.

It's a tapestry, and this feels like one thread too many pulled.

We'll see how it turns out. I'm hopeful it's being done for shock value and it'll turn out as a faux moment like Sisko seeing Kassidy's ship explode.

If they really destroyed DS9 though?

It's just the latest in a line of decisions I disagree with strongly. And so why would I want to keep reading books that keep making choices that aren't appealing to me as a fan at all? You know?

We'll see how it all ends up.

 

[Travis Chesser]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

That's good that you didn't bash him, but he definitely was. Not liking a book is one thing, no problem, but calling an author racist, stupid, etc. is quite another, which is what was starting to happen. I just feel like we need to wait for next month's sequel before we condemn the ending to PoN. As far as VGR and Janeway go, I agree that Voyager definitely had its not-so-good moments for a while in Trek lit, but I base most of that on the quality of Golden's first four relaunch novels. Not a fan. Janeway's death didn't bother me because, frankly, I was surprised she survived the tv finale. I always saw her as a "Get my crew home" woman who dies in self-sacrifice saving her crew. I don't think her death was really a slight against Voyager. Now, I didn't like Before Dishonor for other reasons mentioned in a previous post, so I'm with you there. However, I think Beyer's Voyager relaunch is phenomenal!

 

[Thestral]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I disagree with that, the book could have been a third to a half shorter if it credited people with remembering what had happened in past storylines. It's true that people don't read all the books (I certainly don't) but there is far, far too much harking back to the past when it doesn't add much to the story in trek books. (Not a criticism limited to this book/author). I haven't read the other DS9 books but I know the major threads discussed in this book because they are repeated so often.

Personally I really liked the way Plagues ties all those together and sets them in narrative context.

So Star Trek often involves bringing nations to the brink of war, but only rarely does full-fledged war actually break out.

To be fair though, unlike Balance of Terror and Errands of Mercy, this is much more on-the-brink than any of those examples. After a coordinated attack on a Federation starbase involving warships from multiple nations in the Pact after violating the agreements re:the Gamma Quadrant it'll take a Herculean effort to dial things down. It'll be fun.

Really liking the novel so far. Gotta say, in terms of narrative complexity, this is probably the most ambitious Star Trek novel since the Destiny trilogy. By my count so far, it advances at least 12 major factions' plot arcs from all across the books:

Agreed. I was somewhat disappointed by the lack of Dax and Aventine but the book's so full already I guess I shouldn't complain.

In fact, DRGIII and I talked about this and decided it makes sense to have La Forge as the ship's 2nd officer (i.e., third-in-command) from main engineering; if the ship suffers a hit that takes out the CO and XO on the bridge, and command transfers to engineering, it makes perfect sense to have the chief engineer as part of the chain of command to keep things running without interruption.

I've got a question/something I don't really like though. I comprehend the reason given about it "making the chain of command look odd" to have it go Captain -> Commander -> Captain, but I don't understand why it's needed. I mean, La Forge is a Captain of Engineering (as well as now the second officer) and Starfleet officers aren't stupid.

I actually like that Geordi seems to be moving away from a command track. Not everyone who enters Starfleet needs to (or even wants to) captain a starship. Geordi certainly never struck me as the type in TNG or the movies. Granted, I haven't read much of him in the novels yet...

Spoiler: Plagues spoiler

I read it as Geordi moving closer to a command track actually, since he's now the second officer and third-in-command as well as being the Chief Engineer.

You are severely understating the amount of attention Geordi received in the A Time to... novels, in Greater than the Sum, in Destiny, and in Paths of Disharmony. And an entire book dedicated to him in the form of Indistinguishable From Magic is more than any character save Picard, Beverly, and T'Rhyss have received.

Err, his stuff in Destiny was great but it was pretty small nonetheless. Flirt with Leishman, tech the tech, and that great scene where he stands up to Picard about the thalaron emitter.

I really believe that like the line earlier about Sisko seeing Kasity's ship blowing up and we find out later that she is not on it, the same thing is going to happen to DS9 itself. Sisko might think that the explosion destroys DS9, but that really, it is just the lower core. Plus from other blurbs for future books we know Ro is alive, so I am hoping the station is as well.

I like this explanation, that what he's seeing is just the reactor/core and and the hint about Sisko seeing Kasidy's ship blow up.

 

[Truth]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

David is a HUGE DS9 fan. He's not going to wipe out the cast in one fell swoop.

Yeah, he's not that other David.

Haha, good point. And with that David, if you're speaking of Peter, I wasn't even bothered about the fact that he kills of characters. In fact, with Before Dishonor, I thought it was gutsy that they did what they did. What bothered me about Before Dishonr, was that he clearly had not read or been much informed about the lead up with new characters on the Enterprise and his writing clearly showed that with the security chief (forgot his name) and T'Lana he didn't know their characterization and then by the end of the book the whole plot turned ridiculous. I didn't dislike Before Dishonor because he killed Janeway, but because it wasn't good writing (and I actually like Peter David too) and he didn't have a good grasp of characters. DRG3 on the other hand knows these characters inside and out, and writes them incredibly, yes, even Sisko and his decision. I am a firm believer that if these plotlines had happened on the show no one would be bitching, they're just doing it because its a book and they refuse to wait and see a larger tapestry of events that, with a show, you know is coming in the next episode or next season. But with all the moaning about RBoE, hardly anybody said, "You know what, lets wait and see what he has planned next, this must be going somewhere." They just crucified David for destroying their "property". And as far as people saying DS9 has been shafted and now the ending of PoN shafts it more, clearly hasn't been appreciating Typhon Pact the way I have. DS9 is my first love and joy in Star Trek, and yes I want them to continue the missing storyline set up in the Relaunch, but come on, Typhon Pact has been more DS9 element heavy than any of the other series. Ezri, Julian, and Serena get their own book. The Andorian crisis and Shar are dealt with. Sisko is all over the place, and now PoD putting all the focus back on DS9.

Regardless of which david you where reffering you make a vaild point, about how hard it is to connect with new people for the simple reason that the next writer will just kill them off in order to put his own creations in place, Their was also a number of new people introduced during voygers relaunch that I liked only for them to be killed off. That kinda righting makes it hard for fans to acccept new people

 

[rfmcdpei]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

That's good that you didn't bash him, but he definitely was. Not liking a book is one thing, no problem, but calling an author racist, stupid, etc. is quite another, which is what was starting to happen.

Agreed, entirely.

I just feel like we need to wait for next month's sequel before we condemn the ending to PoN.

It's not obvious to me that, even if DS9 is destroyed that ending would need to be condemned. (If it kills the characters we care about, different story, but I don't think so. It doesn't make sense to me that George would have had the Prophets give Kira a vision that would spare her and Kassidy from the Xhosa only to kill them when the station blows up moments later.

As far as VGR and Janeway go, I agree that Voyager definitely had its not-so-good moments for a while in Trek lit, but I base most of that on the quality of Golden's first four relaunch novels. Not a fan. Janeway's death didn't bother me because, frankly, I was surprised she survived the tv finale. I always saw her as a "Get my crew home" woman who dies in self-sacrifice saving her crew. I don't think her death was really a slight against Voyager. Now, I didn't like Before Dishonor for other reasons mentioned in a previous post, so I'm with you there. However, I think Beyer's Voyager relaunch is phenomenal!

Agreed.

 

[Frontier]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Regardless of which david you where reffering you make a vaild point, about how hard it is to connect with new people for the simple reason that the next writer will just kill them off in order to put his own creations in place, Their was also a number of new people introduced during voygers relaunch that I liked only for them to be killed off. That kinda righting makes it hard for fans to acccept new people

This is what TNG has suffered from for a long while. It may be mended a bit now, but it took way too long.

Oh I know the "no crew in the real military would ever stay together that long" argument. But that's a really stupid argument, because this isn't reality. It's fiction.

As for final judgment - I am waiting until the next novel to make mine. You never know... maybe that final line is just to drive sales up. *Shrug* we can hope.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^ That final line was also given from Sisko's perspective. Sisko doesn't completely understand what is going on at that time. He thinks a couple people just got killed who we, the readers, know did not.

I think what happened is a bit more complex than that one line let on. Great cliffhanger, DRG III. Way to leave us thirsting for more.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

If Geordi had not been demoted, could he have been second officer? Or should I say, could Worf be first officer and have a subordinate out-rank him?

As for whether Geordi should be command track or not, we see a future in VGR where he is command track then we see a future in AGT and Countdown where is a civilian. Based on the erased VGR future, we have good reason to believe he would change to command track.

 

[chris_masters5]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

If Geordi had not been demoted, could he have been second officer? Or should I say, could Worf be first officer and have a subordinate out-rank him?

In my opinion rank doesn't always seem to matter for example Troi was promted to Commander in Season 7 while Worf was still a Lieutenant. Even though Worf had a lower rank I didn't see him as subordinate to Troi. Someone else could prove me wrong though.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

But Worf wasn't second officer, Data was. Of course Data was Lt cmdr so Troi out ranked him. Yet Data was still second officer.

However, look at Christine Vale who Riker got promoted because Vale didn't want to be lower in rank than Troi.

Funny how much discussion rank is generating.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Then there is Spock saying Scotty is dead rather than lost. Lone Magpie made a point of saying that the editors wanted Scotty's fate unclear. Also, RBOE ended with Tomalek stepping down from the proconsul position, now he takes it back only to step in agian.

Why was it necessary to undo or change these points from previous books?

1. Spock said that Scotty is dead. That's a plausible enough conclusion based on the circumstances of Scotty's death, apparently trapped on a starship caught in the middle of a collapsing intergalactic spatial tunnel while already facing imminent death from natural causes. IFM left Scotty's fate unclear, with Spock himself saying only that sometimes Enterprise officers surprised everyone with their survival. Without any evidence to the contrary, he'd be justified in considering Scott dead.

2. Swallow himself said on this forum that he had forgotten about Ventel being proconsul when he wrote about Tomalak filling that position. George's reconciliation of the two, creating two proconsuls each with different responsibilties, is fine by me.

 

[Sjaddix]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Geordi's gotten plenty of attention in the TNG books the last several years. For an exploration of his ambivalence towards command, read A Time for War, A Time for Peace (2004) by Keith R.A. DeCandido.

He got a few pages in the time series , and a bit part where he stood up to picard the borg plot , the only real focus on him was IFM

You are severely understating the amount of attention Geordi received in the A Time to... novels, in Greater than the Sum, in Destiny, and in Paths of Disharmony. And an entire book dedicated to him in the form of Indistinguishable From Magic is more than any character save Picard, Beverly, and T'Rhyss have received.

Lets ask the question has he gotten laid yet?

 

[rfmcdpei]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

He got a few pages in the time series , and a bit part where he stood up to picard the borg plot , the only real focus on him was IFM

You are severely understating the amount of attention Geordi received in the A Time to... novels, in Greater than the Sum, in Destiny, and in Paths of Disharmony. And an entire book dedicated to him in the form of Indistinguishable From Magic is more than any character save Picard, Beverly, and T'Rhyss have received.

Lets ask the question has he gotten laid yet?

In IFM, it's strongly implied that he has developed an intimate relationship with Leah Brahms.

 

[Ronald Held]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I just started and maybe a quarter ways into it. I do not know what to make of the story, maybe it is too early to evaluate it.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

What I love about the story is the fact that no one intended the ending that we saw at the end of the book to come about. Different people acting for different reasons, most concerned with ensuring the survival of their own culture (not the destruction of their enemies), often taking care to try to ensure a minimum of unnecessary complications,ended up interacting at cross-purposes to produce ... well.

Spoiler: About the final sentence.

I do think that Deep Space 9 will survive, if damaged. I don't think that the Prophets would have given Kira a vision that would have spared her and Yates from the Xhosa only to have them be killed in DS9's explosion. I also don't think that George is going to kill off a huge proportion of DS9's characters, both TV and relaunch novel.

My bet is that DS9 will survive, heavily damaged. I can only imagine what will happen in George's second book!

 

[Sjaddix]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

You are severely understating the amount of attention Geordi received in the A Time to... novels, in Greater than the Sum, in Destiny, and in Paths of Disharmony. And an entire book dedicated to him in the form of Indistinguishable From Magic is more than any character save Picard, Beverly, and T'Rhyss have received.

Lets ask the question has he gotten laid yet?

In IFM, it's strongly implied that he has developed an intimate relationship with Leah Brahms.

Yeah and if he was TNG Show Riker that would be good enough but this is LaForge we are talking about

 

[Sjaddix]

Re: Typhon Pact: Plagues of Night by DRGIII Review Thread (Spoilers!)

What I love about the story is the fact that no one intended the ending that we saw at the end of the book to come about. Different people acting for different reasons, most concerned with ensuring the survival of their own culture (not the destruction of their enemies), often taking care to try to ensure a minimum of unnecessary complications,ended up interacting at cross-purposes to produce ... well.

Spoiler: About the final sentence.

I do think that Deep Space 9 will survive, if damaged. I don't think that the Prophets would have given Kira a vision that would have spared her and Yates from the Xhosa only to have them be killed in DS9's explosion. I also don't think that George is going to kill off a huge proportion of DS9's characters, both TV and relaunch novel.

My bet is that DS9 will survive, heavily damaged. I can only imagine what will happen in George's second book!

Prophets cannot predicted. Beyond the fact that they want Sisko alive.

And I can only imagine the fan rage if it did happen.