TOS Still The Best

[BillJ]

I haven't felt that in NuTrek at all. The series always gave hope NuTrek has given us a genocidal maniac that wasnt stopped and destroyed Vulcan...

Can't win them all.

...a insane Starfleet captain that wasn't stopped before he killed scores of people...

Admiral Marcus? The commander of Starfleet. Yeah, I think he may be a bit tougher to stop than a garden variety officer. Having more means at your disposal will do that.

...a woefully immature Kirk and a Spock that doesn't seem to be the strong first officer that Prime Spock was.

Since the film takes place seven years prior to TOS, I would imagine the characters would be different to an extent. I'm not the same person I was seven years ago.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Why compare? Really. Where is the basis for a fair comparison? Best in what way? Look, I get it that some believe Abrams didn't capture the essence and being of Roddenberry's "vision thing," whatever that really was (and I think we all -- myself included -- tend to define that to fit our own purposes). Let's move on.

Why must we constantly have to denigrate one form of Trek in order to support another? It's getting tiring. Why do they always have to be ranked? That's getting tiring, too. They all had strengths, they all had warts, they all entertained.

To be blunt, in the broadest sense, they all have one thing that ties them together, from TOS to Abrams and every spin off in between -- the belief that we really are OK people. Foibles and all, we will be fine. We are progressing towards something better even if we sometimes take three steps back and only one step forward. Just by being there, if not in theme or said explicitly in episodes, that "good future" we would all want to live in was on TV every week across several series. It's the one thing I've always thought all versions of Trek has had that had made it different than most of its competition. The feeling that in the end, everything will be OK. Our better angels will rule.

I thought that feeling was conveyed in both Abrams movies. And all Trek has conveyed it, they just entertained differently as they did.

I haven't felt that in NuTrek at all. The series always gave hope NuTrek has given us a genocidal maniac that wasnt stopped and destroyed Vulcan, a insane Starfleet captain that wasn't stopped before he killed scores of people, a woefully immature Kirk and a Spock that doesn't seem to be the strong first officer that Prime Spock was.

It's not like genocidal manics and insane Starfleet Captains who kill scores are unknown in TOS. They even committed these crimes before they were stopped. Made for some good drama.

The characters are growing. Why should they be were they where in TOS? Let them grow into those characters.

 

[Warped9]

A HUGE thing I object to in JJtrek (along with the immaturity of the characters) is this stupid notion of everyone being together and knowing each other from the very beginning. It's so stupidly cute-and-tidy it makes me want to puke. It's basically Harve Bennett's Academy story idea shoehorned into the reboot plan.

Of course you can just pile that onto a CADET (practically) being given command of the fleet's prize ship after getting lucky in one incident.

There's zero attempt at any sort of credibility or measure of sense in these films. it's one ridiculous thing after another.

 

[BillJ]

A HUGE thing I object to in JJtrek (along with the immaturity of the characters) is this stupid notion of everyone being together and knowing each other from the very beginning. It's so stupidly cute-and-tidy it makes me want to puke. It's basically Harve Bennett's Academy story idea shoehorned into the reboot plan.

Of course you can just pile that onto a CADET (practically) being given command of the fleet's prize ship after getting lucky in one incident.

There's zero attempt at any sort of credibility or measure of sense in these films. it's one ridiculous thing after another.

And no one's forcing you to watch. Would them being all together have been my first choice? Probably not. If it had been me, I would have focused on Kirk and Spock with Pike and Number One as supporting characters. But no one asked me and I don't have $150 million to spend on a movie.

However, just because I would've went down a different road doesn't mean I can't enjoy what Abrams and Company did. They've made a pair of movies that are a Hell of a lot of fun to watch.

YMMV.

 

[Nerys Myk]

A HUGE thing I object to in JJtrek (along with the immaturity of the characters) is this stupid notion of everyone being together and knowing each other from the very beginning. It's so stupidly cute-and-tidy it makes me want to puke. It's basically Harve Bennett's Academy story idea shoehorned into the reboot plan.

Of course you can just pile that onto a CADET (practically) being given command of the fleet's prize ship after getting lucky in one incident.

There's zero attempt at any sort of credibility or measure of sense in these films. it's one ridiculous thing after another.

Depends on where you think the "beginning" is. Kirk meets Uhura and McCoy prior to attending the academy. He meets Spock in his third year. He meets Chekov and Sulu on the Enterprise. He meets Scotty on Delta Vega. So the meetings are spread out. It's not like they all lived together in dorm from the films start and then wound up serving together on the Enterprise

It's also not a surprise that the characters get together in this film. We weren't going to see a film with Kirk and a bunch of characters no one ever heard of. People want/expect so see the crew they are somewhat familiar with. To the average audience that's credible.

 

[TRON JA307020]

A HUGE thing I object to in JJtrek (along with the immaturity of the characters) is this stupid notion of everyone being together and knowing each other from the very beginning. It's so stupidly cute-and-tidy it makes me want to puke. It's basically Harve Bennett's Academy story idea shoehorned into the reboot plan.

Of course you can just pile that onto a CADET (practically) being given command of the fleet's prize ship after getting lucky in one incident.

There's zero attempt at any sort of credibility or measure of sense in these films. it's one ridiculous thing after another.

Yeah I agree. They all have their first space adventure together. Kirk never even serves on the Farragut to make that tirp to becoming captain. NuKirk does one good thing and hes automatically promoted form Cadet to First Officer to Captain in the space of a day or two. Totally friggin stupid. LOL!

 

[fireproof78]

A HUGE thing I object to in JJtrek (along with the immaturity of the characters) is this stupid notion of everyone being together and knowing each other from the very beginning. It's so stupidly cute-and-tidy it makes me want to puke. It's basically Harve Bennett's Academy story idea shoehorned into the reboot plan.

Of course you can just pile that onto a CADET (practically) being given command of the fleet's prize ship after getting lucky in one incident.

There's zero attempt at any sort of credibility or measure of sense in these films. it's one ridiculous thing after another.

Yeah I agree. They all have their first space adventure together. Kirk never even serves on the Farragut to make that tirp to becoming captain. NuKirk does one good thing and hes automatically promoted form Cadet to First Officer to Captain in the space of a day or two. Totally friggin stupid. LOL!

Depends on your perspective, I suppose. Or, as the parlance goes, YMMV.

Of all the stuff that happens in 09, Kirk's rapid promotion to Captain is the only part that bugs me. I can rationalize it away, but it still sticks out, and if I had the option I would do it differently. SF Debris idea of creating a montage of award after award being pushed upon Kirk in similar ceremony at the end works well for me.

However, it isn't a deal breaker for me, anymore than the variations that we see in Kirk and Spock from WNMHGB to Amok Time.

I love TOS and it will probably remain my favorite Star Trek series, but I don't take Abrams Trek and stack it up against TOS and measure them and weigh them and get made when they are not the same.

Ten years ago, I was running around trying to make a Star Wars fan film, hoping to find a girlfriend, and working through school. Now, I'm married, have kids and work full time. I don't do the same things I even a year ago. If Pine's Kirk acted like Shatner's Kirk from the beginning, I don't know if I would take it as seriously.

 

[Franklin]

Why compare? Really. Where is the basis for a fair comparison? Best in what way? Look, I get it that some believe Abrams didn't capture the essence and being of Roddenberry's "vision thing," whatever that really was (and I think we all -- myself included -- tend to define that to fit our own purposes). Let's move on.

Why must we constantly have to denigrate one form of Trek in order to support another? It's getting tiring. Why do they always have to be ranked? That's getting tiring, too. They all had strengths, they all had warts, they all entertained.

To be blunt, in the broadest sense, they all have one thing that ties them together, from TOS to Abrams and every spin off in between -- the belief that we really are OK people. Foibles and all, we will be fine. We are progressing towards something better even if we sometimes take three steps back and only one step forward. Just by being there, if not in theme or said explicitly in episodes, that "good future" we would all want to live in was on TV every week across several series. It's the one thing I've always thought all versions of Trek has had that had made it different than most of its competition. The feeling that in the end, everything will be OK. Our better angels will rule.

I thought that feeling was conveyed in both Abrams movies. And all Trek has conveyed it, they just entertained differently as they did.

I haven't felt that in NuTrek at all. The series always gave hope NuTrek has given us a genocidal maniac that wasnt stopped and destroyed Vulcan, a insane Starfleet captain that wasn't stopped before he killed scores of people, a woefully immature Kirk and a Spock that doesn't seem to be the strong first officer that Prime Spock was.

It's never been about utopia. Disasters happen. The Dominion Wars in DS9 led to countless planets being destroyed. Civilizations wiped out.

Kirk and Spock were immature because, well, they were immature. That was kind of the point. Spock just lost six billion of his people. Let's see even extraordinary persons be strong after that. Even Spock Prime said he was "emotionally compromised" by it.

The message Kirk delivers at the end of STID is a message many good TOS episodes delivered: we're flawed, but we must resist regressing and progress. We can be a better species.

A HUGE thing I object to in JJtrek (along with the immaturity of the characters) is this stupid notion of everyone being together and knowing each other from the very beginning. It's so stupidly cute-and-tidy it makes me want to puke. It's basically Harve Bennett's Academy story idea shoehorned into the reboot plan.

Of course you can just pile that onto a CADET (practically) being given command of the fleet's prize ship after getting lucky in one incident.

There's zero attempt at any sort of credibility or measure of sense in these films. it's one ridiculous thing after another.

Yeah I agree. They all have their first space adventure together. Kirk never even serves on the Farragut to make that tirp to becoming captain. NuKirk does one good thing and hes automatically promoted form Cadet to First Officer to Captain in the space of a day or two. Totally friggin stupid. LOL!

It was a very dumb thing to give Kirk command of the Enterprise. Stupid as it gets. Poor judgment by Pike. Kirk was not at all ready for command at the end of ST09. Too young. Too unpolished. Too careless. Too ego-involved. I mean, just look at what happened in STID because of all that!

 

[Nerys Myk]

The message Kirk delivers at the end of STID is a message many good TOS episodes delivered: we're flawed, but we must resist regressing and progress. We can be a better species.

Needs a gazelle.

 

[fireproof78]

It was a very dumb thing to give Kirk command of the Enterprise. Stupid as it gets. Poor judgment by Pike. Kirk was not at all ready for command at the end of ST09. Too young. Too unpolished. Too careless. Too ego-involved. I mean, just look at what happened in STID because of all that!

At least they acknowledged the consequences rather than ignoring it in the next episode

 

[Franklin]

The message Kirk delivers at the end of STID is a message many good TOS episodes delivered: we're flawed, but we must resist regressing and progress. We can be a better species.

Needs a gazelle.

I had to think a minute, though.

It was a very dumb thing to give Kirk command of the Enterprise. Stupid as it gets. Poor judgment by Pike. Kirk was not at all ready for command at the end of ST09. Too young. Too unpolished. Too careless. Too ego-involved. I mean, just look at what happened in STID because of all that!

At least they acknowledged the consequences rather than ignoring it in the next episode

I'd like to think it wasn't a coincidence. These guys were better storytellers than some give them credit for.

 

[fireproof78]

The message Kirk delivers at the end of STID is a message many good TOS episodes delivered: we're flawed, but we must resist regressing and progress. We can be a better species.

Needs a gazelle.

I had to think a minute, though.

It was a very dumb thing to give Kirk command of the Enterprise. Stupid as it gets. Poor judgment by Pike. Kirk was not at all ready for command at the end of ST09. Too young. Too unpolished. Too careless. Too ego-involved. I mean, just look at what happened in STID because of all that!

At least they acknowledged the consequences rather than ignoring it in the next episode

I'd like to think it wasn't a coincidence. These guys were better storytellers than some give them credit for.

I agree

 

[Poltargyst]

Why compare? Really. Where is the basis for a fair comparison? Best in what way? Look, I get it that some believe Abrams didn't capture the essence and being of Roddenberry's "vision thing," whatever that really was (and I think we all -- myself included -- tend to define that to fit our own purposes). Let's move on.

Why must we constantly have to denigrate one form of Trek in order to support another? It's getting tiring. Why do they always have to be ranked? That's getting tiring, too. They all had strengths, they all had warts, they all entertained.

To be blunt, in the broadest sense, they all have one thing that ties them together, from TOS to Abrams and every spin off in between -- the belief that we really are OK people. Foibles and all, we will be fine. We are progressing towards something better even if we sometimes take three steps back and only one step forward. Just by being there, if not in theme or said explicitly in episodes, that "good future" we would all want to live in was on TV every week across several series. It's the one thing I've always thought all versions of Trek has had that had made it different than most of its competition. The feeling that in the end, everything will be OK. Our better angels will rule.

I thought that feeling was conveyed in both Abrams movies. And all Trek has conveyed it, they just entertained differently as they did.

I haven't felt that in NuTrek at all. The series always gave hope NuTrek has given us a genocidal maniac that wasnt stopped and destroyed Vulcan, a insane Starfleet captain that wasn't stopped before he killed scores of people, a woefully immature Kirk and a Spock that doesn't seem to be the strong first officer that Prime Spock was.

Keep in mind that unlike Prime Kirk, NuKirk had to grow up without a father. His personality is going to be very different and understandably so.

 

[TRON JA307020]

The message Kirk delivers at the end of STID is a message many good TOS episodes delivered: we're flawed, but we must resist regressing and progress. We can be a better species.

Needs a gazelle.

I had to think a minute, though.

It was a very dumb thing to give Kirk command of the Enterprise. Stupid as it gets. Poor judgment by Pike. Kirk was not at all ready for command at the end of ST09. Too young. Too unpolished. Too careless. Too ego-involved. I mean, just look at what happened in STID because of all that!

At least they acknowledged the consequences rather than ignoring it in the next episode

I'd like to think it wasn't a coincidence. These guys were better storytellers than some give them credit for.

Of course Marcus gives him command back pretty much the next day and then slaps Kirk down. A year later Kirk is giving a speech and he is rewarded wit the 5 year mission. We are at that point taking about a time frame of Kirk being out of the academy for only about 2 years. He should have been busted to first officer at least to get some real command experience. He just doesn't belong in that seat yet.

 

[plynch]

Pike made a mistake, someone said upthread. I like that. Everybody's human. Well, not Spock.

Kirk's growth is growing on me. I hope he's an experienced (real) captain by jjTrek III, however. I do miss the Spock I knew. Tis poor guy is way more messed up.

 

[Warped9]

Why compare?

Why not? If two separate creative teams tackle the same subject matter then comparisons are inevitable.

Keep in mind that unlike Prime Kirk, NuKirk had to grow up without a father.

We don't know that. We've never learned anything about TOS Kirk's father. Lots of kids have grown up in single parent families and don't turn out to be assholes.

 

[BillJ]

Lots of kids have grown up in single parent families and don't turn out to be assholes.

Lots of young men from one and two parent families turn out to be assholes until they find their way.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Why compare?

Why not? If two separate creative teams tackle the same subject matter then comparisons are inevitable.

Keep in mind that unlike Prime Kirk, NuKirk had to grow up without a father.

We don't know that. We've never learned anything about TOS Kirk's father. Lots of kids have grown up in single parent families and don't turn out to be assholes.

Kirk's cocky and can be annoying, but he's not an asshole.

Though, Kirk probably did something to gain this reputation

KORAX: No. I just remembered. There is one Earthman who doesn't remind me of a Regulan blood worm. That's Kirk. A Regulan blood worm is soft and shapeless, but Kirk isn't soft. Kirk may be a swaggering, overbearing, tin-plated dictator with delusions of godhood, but he's not soft.

 

[Warped9]

Lots of kids have grown up in single parent families and don't turn out to be assholes.

Lots of young men from one and two parent families turn out to be assholes until they find their way.

But the assumption was made that Prime Kirk grew up with a father. We don't know that.

And, yes, nuKirk is indeed an asshole--a stupid jackass punk. It isn't Pine's fault because that's how he was directed to play him.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Lots of kids have grown up in single parent families and don't turn out to be assholes.

Lots of young men from one and two parent families turn out to be assholes until they find their way.

But the assumption was made that Prime Kirk grew up with a father. We don't know that.

And, yes, nuKirk is indeed an asshole--a stupid jackass punk. It isn't Pine's fault because that's how he was directed to play him.

Not seeing it. And trust me, I know an asshole when I see one.