TOS Enterprise Shuttle Storage?

[blssdwlf]

@Timo

You can see an idea of lines where the old rail lines were on the flight deck when Kirk looks sorta that way when he boards the Enterprise in TMP.
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tmp2/tmphd0391.jpg

Which we see the lines (which are very thin) in TWOK:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/twokhd/twokhd0447.jpg

And a clearer view of the actual model taken as reference shots:
http://www.galileo2.net/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2&pid=98

You can think of it as ST version of the RAST system. It could be a line of tractor beams designed to grab tight the shuttle to either guide it in or or out of the flight deck.

 

[Timo]

I'm not sure I see anything in the matte painting, but the model lines are clear in the TWoK shot. Thank you!

Then again, the TFF set had various lines on the floor as well, and what looked like dark rails turned out to be "runway lights" for two parallel shuttlebay approach/taxiing paths. Or then fancy glowing antigrav catapults, for all we know... Plenty of possibilities there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[B.J.]

The shuttlecraft also use a tailhook that seems to already come in use during catapult take-off.

Er, WHAT tailhook? You mean the rear landing pad, that isn't a hook at all?

 

[Robert Comsol]

"Safety during launch as the Enterprise can continue to maneuver while the launch rails prevents the shuttle from accidentally floating into a wall on departure.

This does make great sense, considering how wobbly the TOS-R landings and takeoffs tend to be - and how wobbly the one takeoff we witnessed in TOS, that on the planet in "The Galileo Seven", was. So, a RAST system for a space helicopter, then, rather than a catapult for a space aeroplane?"

Good thing we can hopefully all agree on that. Just have one of these typical bumpy situations aboard the TOS Enterprise and imagine a simultaneous shuttle launch in progress...besides, the unobstructed opening to space is the widest at the bottom of the flight deck.

There is one recurring idea I have to disagree - That of both the flight deck and the hangar deck lead to a vast open space like in TMP.

First, there is the official production drawing which indicates a bulkhead where the shuttlebay VFX miniature ends: http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/blueprints/uss-enterprise-space-cruiser-sheet-3.jpg

Second, the Enterprise is supposed to be 40 years old (same for the shuttlecraft design?) by the time of TOS. There are no pressure containment screens like in Star Wars or - obviously - TMP. The entire shuttlebay area needs to be pressurized and depressurized as shown in TOS.

Third, we have seen in TOS a noticable amount of corridors and rooms that are on the same level as and lead to the hangar deck. All those are gone in TMP; whatever decks and corridors used to be there have been torn out and made way - for an empty space whose purpose evades the imagination (well, at least mine).

Recently at an airshow I talked to the pilots of a C-17 Globemaster whether they did use the remaining empty space above the freight pallets. Well, they don't but that's 21st Century technology we were talking about.

It almost seems in TMP a starship of exploration has become a starship of (cargo) transportation. If you were to reassemble the essential elements now remaining in the engineering hull, the Reliant would be a possible design outcome.

Bob

P.S. Just found this original Matt Jefferies design for the "TMP" Enterprise, please note the dimensions of the shuttlebay area: http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STMPEnterprise/Phase_2_Enterprise_Inboard_Profile.jpg

 

[Robert Comsol]

"I was sure I had these signs (WARNING FIRE etc) on my hard drive somewhere, but I've not been able to find them and now I see they've dissapeared from that thread you mentioned as well! Anyone got any copies?"

Anyone, please! It was pretty frustrating () to notice there had been pictures with the signs and now these have gone. Mytran, do you recall if "WARNING FIRE" was the big sign on the port side?

Bob

 

[Mytran]

Yes, I think it was.

I will scour my backup discs tonight to see if I archived the images somewhere - fingers crossed!

 

[Albertese]

...

Second, the Enterprise is supposed to be 40 years old (same for the shuttlecraft design?) by the time of TOS. There are no pressure containment screens like in Star Wars or - obviously - TMP. The entire shuttlebay area needs to be pressurized and depressurized as shown in TOS.

The Enterprise is closer to 20 years old in TOS. According to the Okudachron, She was launched in 2245 and season one of the show is pegged at 2266. When Admiral Morrow says the ship is 20 years old in ST3, it's really closer to 40 years old then. One wonders what 20 years he's referring to...

Third, we have seen in TOS a noticable amount of corridors and rooms that are on the same level as and lead to the hangar deck. All those are gone in TMP; whatever decks and corridors used to be there have been torn out and made way - for an empty space whose purpose evades the imagination (well, at least mine).

Recently at an airshow I talked to the pilots of a C-17 Globemaster whether they did use the remaining empty space above the freight pallets. Well, they don't but that's 21st Century technology we were talking about.

It almost seems in TMP a starship of exploration has become a starship of (cargo) transportation. If you were to reassemble the essential elements now remaining in the engineering hull, the Reliant would be a possible design outcome.

Bob

I am of the opinion that the TOS ship had most of it's power generation business in the midst of the engineering hull and through the nacelles. When the ship is refit for TMP, the reactor equipment is much different and more compact and the entire drive system is revolutionarily different. So, a great deal of the ship which had been devoted to engineering spaces, now has no specific use so it's utilized to expand greatly the cargo capacity. Normally, this area is a large cavity accessible to the shuttlebay, but if the need for more cargo floor-space comes up, then "roll-out" floors can be deployed. These floors were (IIRC) suggested by Probert when he designed this area during the TMP pre-production.

YMMV.

--Alex

 

[Mytran]

Found it!

Not sure what the other missing picture was, probably just a long shot of the shuttlebay.

 

[blssdwlf]

When Admiral Morrow says the ship is 20 years old in ST3, it's really closer to 40 years old then. One wonders what 20 years he's referring to...

My guess is that Morrow is referring to "20 years old" from when she was rebuilt in TMP. He might be justified since most of the ship was replaced or upgraded...

 

[Mytran]

Unfortunately, it was only the previous film where Kahn declared it was "15 years" since he was marooned.

"20 years" might refer to another significant rebuild, (turning Pike's Ent into Kirk's) but despite the changes they would pale compared the TMP refit!

Perhaps Kirk's trip to the galaxy edge went down really well with Earth media and Starfleet began using the Enterprise as her "named" ship for PR purposes. 20 years later, they're ready to move onto the Excelsior.

So, what the Admiral really meant to say was "The Enterprise as a publicity device is 20 years old - we feel her day is over"

Or something else - anyone?

 

[Timo]

One wonders what 20 years he's referring to...

If the movie takes place in 2285 (several years after the 2283 date on the ale bottle, to make sense of Kirk's concern regarding the date), then a refit starting in 2270 would indeed make the "almost completely new" ship two decades old, with just a smidgen of understandable exaggeration. Not a big problem there, considering Morrow has every reason to make things sound more extreme than they really are. It's a reverse sales pitch: "You are flying a piece of junk, Jim, and the facts on this are clear! Sort of. Kinda. Anyway. She's old!"

Khan in turn was clearly not marooned in 2270, but a 2268 marooning (during the third year of the five-year mission judging by stardates) would make the deed seventeen years old. "Fifteen years ago" is a valid expression for that.

When the ship is refit for TMP, the reactor equipment is much different and more compact and the entire drive system is revolutionarily different.

Perhaps, perhaps not. The same facilities could easily have been present in the TOS ship already (but they would be "protective suits must be worn at all times" type areas, only accessed for major repairs or shakedowns, whilst Scotty normally worked in the shirtsleeves control rooms).

But there's plenty of precedent for a propulsive refit creating extra room that is thereafter dedicated to completely different purposes, in the form of WWI battleships converted from coal to oil for WWII.

Regarding the TOS bay signage, we now have proof positive that there indeed are multiple shuttlecraft elevators at the forward end! I mean, the sign clearly refers to something else than the small door that no doubt eventually leads to turbolifts, because elevators =/= turbolifts.

(These elevators just happen to be hidden behind airtight rolling doors, just as in ST5, because otherwise you wouldn't need the special signage. No pressurization problems there. And elevators with doors are much better for pressurization than turntables without.)

As for seeing "WARNING FIRE" written on a wall, I'd definitely turn my shuttle around, turntable or not, and fly out ASAP! Regardless of whether the sign was referring to a spare warp coil pile fire that has been out of control since stardate 0231.1 and still proudly going, or whether this is the location where warning fire will be fired from when you least expect it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

Is that "Elevators" sign pointing to that hatch instead? That was my first thought looking at the sign.

As to the age... Morrow could've rounded up and Khan kept it real

 

[Robert Comsol]

@ Albertese

I apologize, I was referring to the age figure provided by the Making of Star Trek. Anyway, it doesn't have to do that much with this thread so feel free to ignore it.

@ Mytran

Fascinating close-up shot, thanks for going through the hazzle of relocating it. But hold on, something is odd. I just wanted to figure out whether it's port or starboard side and looked again at the genuine b&w shuttlebay model shots from that other BBS thread - it appears that close-up shot is not from the original model but a (shorter) recreation of it.

And according to Richard Datin's website http://www.startrekman.us/pages/4/index.htm neither "Warning Fire" nor "Elevators" seem to be among those labels he suggests to belong to the flight deck:
"Equipment Hatch" - "Explosive Bolt Access" - "Tail Light & Electrical Equipment Access" (definitely flight deck) et cetera. Is that the "tail light" or do you prefer "ion pod"? http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/STEnterprise/ent60.jpg (if Enterprise had an ion pod on the port and starboard side, one should wonder how Kirk knew prior to "Court-Martial" which of the two he'd be jettisoning: http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x20hd/courtmartialhd341.jpg).

(But the one that really caught my attention is "Inspection Door Vent Systems Connections" - that's the labeling on the underside of the saucer (compare Mytran's picture post early on in this thread) and the only one Doug Drexler was able to (still?) find on the Enterprise model when he was doing his Smithsonian Report for the Star Trek posterbook back in the 70's. Could it be that "Explosive Bolt Access" had been a label on the surface of the original model?)

@ Timo

I don't think your equation (elevator = turbolift) is correct. What Admiral Kirk is using in the first two films in the engineering section (and Picard in the TNG pilot) also is an elevator but definitely not a turbolift.

Bob

 

[TIN_MAN]

I think "Explosive Bolt Access" would refer to where the saucer seperates from the dorsal? so any such sign should be in that area, most likely.

 

[Timo]

I don't think your equation (elevator = turbolift) is correct.

Umm, that's what I tried to convey. The inequation elevator =/= turbolift is true, the equation elevator = turbolift is untrue. It's just that the inequality sign isn't easily typed in, but =/= was an attempt at that.

Or at least the turbolifts are their own thing in basically all episodes, even if one or at most two might let slip the expression "turboelevator" or somesuch. We could disregard that much like we disregard that "sickbay" gets called "dispensary" in one episode.

In any case, sorry about the confusion. And interesting that the signage isn't original.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Robert Comsol]

"And interesting that the signage isn't original."

I'm not saying it is not, it's merely not on Mr. Datin's "label list" (which is not complete anyway).

Looking for older photos where you could see more than what had been on TV I came across Allen Asherman's Star Trek Compendium which had a VFX shot of the flight deck which revealed more on the starboard side but wouldn't show where the indentation ended. That might have been the inspiration for the "Warning Fire" model recreation.

And can somebody please explain this http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x16hd/thegalileosevenhd022.jpg compared to this http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x10hd/journeytobabelhd0046.jpg ?

There...are...two...lights! (and not three or four observation deck windows as in TOS-R).

Bob

 

[Albertese]

Yeah, they took a lot of liberties with the shuttlebay. In fact TOS-R took a lot of liberties throughout that I think didn't really need to be taken. But that's a-whole-nother can a worms!

--Alex