Too many chiefs, not enough braves... Enlisted crew in TOS

[Admiral2]

Actually, he explicitedly used NASA logic, which he's not entirely wrong about -

No, his exact words when interviewed about designing the Enterprise were 'airplane logic." Thats why I put it in quotes. Matt Jefferies was an aviation artist, so he used what he knew about airplanes as he worked out what the ship would look like. NASA had nothing to do with it. In fact, GR's instructions to him were "no fins and no rockets" which would kind of leave NASA (full of fins and rockets) out of the loop.

I can by that some college level credits would be required - I think a whole undergraduate degree is overkill for many positions (logistics, security, entry-level technicians that sort of thing).

On the other hand, his logic mostly works for the crew of a runabout, response vessel or even civilian freighter that spends most of its time docked at a station or at least has most of its maintence and support provided there. However, even there with a crew of five - based on a cargo transport - you're looking at three officers (pilot, co-pilot, weapons) and two NCOs (engineer and loadmaster). Interestly, the attack variant of the C-130 also gives an alternative answer to the OP as it has a total crew of 13 (pilot, copilot, navigator, fire control officer [tactical], electronic warfare officer [ops]) and 8 enlisted (flight engineer, TV operator [science/operations officer], infrared detection set operator [science/operations officer], loadmaster, four aerial gunners [armory/general duties]).

Thoroughly listed, but since the OP is talking about a patrol starship in fiction and not trying to man an AC-130 in real life, he's free to replace as many of those enlisteds with junior officers as he likes.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

No, his exact words when interviewed about designing the Enterprise were 'airplane logic." Thats why I put it in quotes. Matt Jefferies was an aviation artist, so he used what he knew about airplanes as he worked out what the ship would look like. NASA had nothing to do with it. In fact, GR's instructions to him were "no fins and no rockets" which would kind of leave NASA (full of fins and rockets) out of the loop.

Ok... I could be wrong but that seems to be referring to the design of the ship, whereas the "NASA logic" thing comes from a discussion of the crew of the ship:

Gene Roddenberry initially envisioned a Starfleet entirely composed of officers during the creation of The Original Series. "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel," he said, "its organization is only semimilitary. The 'enlisted men' category does not exist. Star Trek goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the USS Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer." (The Making of Star Trek, p. 209) In a six-page memo he sent Gene L. Coon about the first draft script of TOS: "Court Martial" (sent on 15 August 1966, while the episode had the working title "Court Martial on Star Base 811"), Roddenberry pointed out, "There is a feeling of an officer-enlisted man arrangement in this script. Actually, we've avoided terminology or playing of 'enlisted men' aboard our vessel. Every man aboard is a trained astronaut, even the cooks."

The passage above doesn't require all Starfleet personnel to all be commissioned officers, merely that all personnel are placed on a single "career ladder" (analogous to that used in the emergency services) rather than the multiple, at best semi-bridgeable tracks of the traditional military. For instance, if we substitute "crewman" (first used for civilians in The Cage, for Starfleet personnel as a rank in Catspaw) and "yeoman" (used as role from The Cage, specifically used as a rank for the first time in The Galileo Seven) with the term "midshipman" (specifically a junior crew member in training to be an officer*, but not on any particular timeframe) then the intention is preserved while maintaining "ensign" as a mid-tier rank not the bottom.

* in classical usage typically between 14 and 22 years of age and would aim to take the Lieutenant's Exam (graduate) with 2-3 years of sea experience IIRC.

 

[Mysterion]

This is the crew composition I came up with the the Akula class Perimeter Action Ships from the second volume of Ships of the Star Fleet. Comments, questions and complaints welcomed.

This is my proposal for the manning on an Akula sub-class PA as described in “Ships of the Star Fleet Volume Two”. That book describes a crew composition of 7 officers and 68 enlisted personnel. I have further broken down the enlisted crew to consist of 1 SCPO, 3 CPOs, 28 Pos, and 36 junior enlisted personnel. The book also describes the CO of a PA as being a Lieutenant commander (O-4) or a senior Lieutenant (O-3). Enlisted grades are as follows:

SCPO = E-8
CPO = E-7
PO = grades E-4 through E-6
Junior enlisted are grades E-1 through E-3.

Commanding Officer (Lcdr. Or Lt.)
Executive/Strategic Officer (Lt.) [see Note 1]
Navigation Officer (Ens. Or Lt(jg).)
Coxswain (SCPO) [Note 2]
Flight Controllers (x5) (all PO) [Note 3]
Yeoman (junior enlisted)

Chief Engineer (Lt(jg). Or Lt.)
Warp Propulsion Specialists (x3) (1 CPO, 2 PO)
Impulse Propulsion Specialist (x3) (1 PO, 2 enl)
Power Distribution Specialists (x3) (1 PO, 2 enl)
Computer/Auxiliary Systems Spec. (x3) (1 PO, 2 enl) [Note 4]
Transporter Specialists (x3) (3 PO)

Tactical/Weapons Officer (Lt.) [Note 5]
Fire Control specialists (x3) (1 PO, 2 enl) [Note 6]
Defense Systems Specialists (x3) (1 PO, 2 enl) [Note 7]
Phaser Systems Technicians (x3) (1 PO, 2 enl)
Torpedo Specialists (x6) (2 PO, 4 enl)
Security Specialists (x6) (1 PO, 5 enl) [Note 8]

Medical Officer (Lt(jg).) [Note 9]
Medical Technicians (x4) (1 CPO, 3 PO)

Operations Officer (Lt(jg).) [Note 10]
Intel/Ops Specialists (x12) (1 CPO, 2 PO, 9 enl) [Note 11]
Communications Tech. (x3) (1 PO, 2 enl)

Sciences/Sensor Tech. (x6) (3 PO, 3 enl) [Note 12]

Note 1 – Quarters shown in deckplans for “Strategic Officer” look to be for a senior officer, so I doubled this position with that of the XO.

Note 2 – The coxswain is the de facto Chief Helmsman. Also serves as the senior enlisted person aboard ship (see “Chief of the Boat” in current USN submarine service).

Note 3 – With the Coxswain, are responsible for maneuvering and navigation of the ship.

Note 4 – Responsible for maintenance of computer systems and general diagnostic engineering of other systems. Damage control when needed.

Note 5 – also indicated as having larger quarters, assumed to be third in command.

Note 6 – these personnel man the Weapon Systems station on the bridge.

Note 7 – These personnel man the Defensive systems station on the bridge.

Note 8 – Internal Security and boarding parties during Border/Customs assignments. Damage control as necessary.

Note 9 – May double as Science officer when necessary.

Note 10 – Oversees the general operations of the vessel, and command of the CIC on Deck 2.

Note 11 – these personnel man the CIC on Deck 2. three per shift in normal conditions, six in alternating shifts during combat.

Note 12 – In addition to manning the Science Station on the bridge, these personnel are responsible for the maintenance, launch, and recovery of the intelligence drones and sensor probes.

REFERENCES
Bluejacket’s Manual – US Naval Institute Press
Encyclopedia of the Modern British Navy – Beaver
Federation Reference Series – Nielsen
Markings & Insignia – Perimeter Action Ships – Guenther
Ships of the Starfleet, Vol. 1 (Rev.) – Guenther/Nielsen
Ships of the Starfleet, Vol. 2 – Guenther/Nielsen
Star Trek Maps – Mandel
Star Trek Star Charts – Mandel
Starship Design – Guenther
Submarine - Clancy

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Would the ship have a actual board certified doctor, or would a well trained corpman/paramedic be more likely?

If the ship was a scout ship, hopping from planet to planet and carrying out preliminary surveys then I think a doctor, who was an expert in life sciences, would be an asset. If it was more geared towards surveillance/reconnaissance then a corpsman would probably be more than sufficient, especially if their mission was short term.

 

[Sgt_G]

This idea was discussed in depth a few years back.
See thread at: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/cre...anifest-for-a-starship-ideas-comments.262687/
It runs 11 pages / 209 posts, so make a cup of tea before you start reading.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

If the ship was a scout ship, hopping from planet to planet and carrying out preliminary surveys then I think a doctor, who was an expert in life sciences, would be an asset. If it was more geared towards surveillance/reconnaissance then a corpsman would probably be more than sufficient, especially if their mission was short term.

I'm not sure I buy the idea of a 14-person ship being able to operate for more than a week or two at a time solo, however if this is essential, having a life scienes officer (who doubles as an advanced medic/doctor) makes sense during the 22-mid c24th Century. After the advent of the EMH, I'd drop it back, though possibly look to have one of the officer or NCOs have attended the Starfleet Medical Course, which - given that it includes child birth - maps with a reasonably comprehensive EMT course (rather than being a "first aider" course).

 

[SITZKRIEG!]

Ok... I could be wrong but that seems to be referring to the design of the ship, whereas the "NASA logic" thing comes from a discussion of the crew of the ship:

Gene Roddenberry initially envisioned a Starfleet entirely composed of officers during the creation of The Original Series. "Although the Enterprise is a military vessel," he said, "its organization is only semimilitary. The 'enlisted men' category does not exist. Star Trek goes on the assumption that every man and woman aboard the USS Enterprise is the equivalent of a qualified astronaut, therefore an officer." (The Making of Star Trek, p. 209) In a six-page memo he sent Gene L. Coon about the first draft script of TOS: "Court Martial" (sent on 15 August 1966, while the episode had the working title "Court Martial on Star Base 811"), Roddenberry pointed out, "There is a feeling of an officer-enlisted man arrangement in this script. Actually, we've avoided terminology or playing of 'enlisted men' aboard our vessel. Every man aboard is a trained astronaut, even the cooks."

The passage above doesn't require all Starfleet personnel to all be commissioned officers, merely that all personnel are placed on a single "career ladder" (analogous to that used in the emergency services) rather than the multiple, at best semi-bridgeable tracks of the traditional military. For instance, if we substitute "crewman" (first used for civilians in The Cage, for Starfleet personnel as a rank in Catspaw) and "yeoman" (used as role from The Cage, specifically used as a rank for the first time in The Galileo Seven) with the term "midshipman" (specifically a junior crew member in training to be an officer*, but not on any particular timeframe) then the intention is preserved while maintaining "ensign" as a mid-tier rank not the bottom.

* in classical usage typically between 14 and 22 years of age and would aim to take the Lieutenant's Exam (graduate) with 2-3 years of sea experience IIRC.

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that and it's an interesting read. While I can't exactly recall if the term "enlisted" was ever officially used in alpha or beta canon, I can't help but feel that the premise wasn't conveyed particularly well in the post-TOS shows that I grew up with. I definitely assumed it was more of the parallel staggered paths that you mentioned with various crossover points.

 

[SITZKRIEG!]

This idea was discussed in depth a few years back.
See thread at: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/cre...anifest-for-a-starship-ideas-comments.262687/
It runs 11 pages / 209 posts, so make a cup of tea before you start reading.

That will be an interesting read tonight at the coffee shop! Just from skimming the first post right now, it does bring up redunancy and shifts, the latter of which I didn't specifically mention. That's part of the reason why I tried having multiple crew for each section like a nurse and a medic in the medbay so that one of them will always be officially on duty (although in the case of a ship this small with a small crew it won't be difficult to just consult the other). Same with the bridge crew as I'd assume that the helmsman and navigator would be cross trained in their duties to some degree (at least to competency) so you wouldn't need both other than in case of emergency.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The term "enlisted" was never explicitedly used in TOS, though 'crewman' and 'yeoman' (implicit evidence of enlisted) were common from the beginning. The TMP unis split non-officers into crewman, petty officer and chief by insignia - no insignia, solid triangle and hollow square, and the Monster Maroons had six different grades - able crewman, petty officer 2nd, petty officer 1st, chief, senior chief and master chief)

There are only a few explicit references to 'enlisted' in dialogue - Family (references to 'enlisted' and 'chief petty officer'); The Drumhead (which referenced 'crewman first class'); and Past Tense Part 1 (references to 'enlisted' being able to avoid formal dinners). However, there are also references to petty officer in Field of Fire; chief petty officer and 'non com' in Hippocratic Oath and Valiant, senior chief specialist in Shadowplay; and at least three different grades of 'crewman' as a rank within Earth Starfleet on Enterprise.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

This is why the Armidale and earlier Freemantle-class boats rated a LT CDR and two LTs rather than the usual one to two LTs (and one of those likely a sublieutenant/ensign or even a Middie anyway).

I have a TOS-era (starting in 2266) patrol boat based on a ship of that size (though can accommodate around 33 if necessary):

COMMAND
Commanding Officer: Lieutenant Commander Thelek
First / Boarding Officer: Lieutenant Danika James
Second / Intelligence Officer: Lieutenant Linae

OPERATIONS
Navigation Officer: Ensign Xam Ra-Vharii
Helmsman: Petty Officer 2nd Class Sakara
Communications Operator: Lead Crewman Mateo Rios

ENGINEERING
Chief of Engineering: Senior Chief Petty Officer Wendy Zhao
Engineering Specialist: Petty Officer 1st Class Kristo Costas
Engineering Specialist: Petty Officer 3rd Class Ryl Senad
Engineer: Lead Crewman Warren Holloway
Engineer: Able Crewman Vivaan Chandra
Engineer: Crewman Ciari Rahl

MEDICAL
Corpsman: Petty Officer 1st Class Reyne

SERVICES
Boatswain / Master-at-Arms: Chief Petty Officer Logan Kincaid
Boatswain's Mate: Petty Officer 2nd Class Dragha
Boatswain's Mate: Petty Officer 3rd Class Terri Bennett
Deckhand: Lead Crewman Kelle Ama
Deckhand: Able Crewman Zei Yenob
Deckhand: Able Crewman Janine Powell
Culinary Technician / Medic: Able Crewman Taax
Deckhand: Crewman Apprentice Hunter Munro

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I have a TOS-era (starting in 2266) patrol boat based on a ship of that size (though can accommodate around 33 if necessary):

COMMAND
Commanding Officer: Lieutenant Commander Thelek
First / Boarding Officer: Lieutenant Danika James
Second / Intelligence Officer: Lieutenant Linae

OPERATIONS
Navigation Officer: Ensign Xam Ra-Vharii
Helmsman: Petty Officer 2nd Class Sakara
Communications Operator: Lead Crewman Mateo Rios

ENGINEERING
Chief of Engineering: Senior Chief Petty Officer Wendy Zhao
Engineering Specialist: Petty Officer 1st Class Kristo Costas
Engineering Specialist: Petty Officer 3rd Class Ryl Senad
Engineer: Lead Crewman Warren Holloway
Engineer: Able Crewman Vivaan Chandra
Engineer: Crewman Ciari Rahl

MEDICAL
Corpsman: Petty Officer 1st Class Reyne

SERVICES
Boatswain / Master-at-Arms: Chief Petty Officer Logan Kincaid
Boatswain's Mate: Petty Officer 2nd Class Dragha
Boatswain's Mate: Petty Officer 3rd Class Terri Bennett
Deckhand: Lead Crewman Kelle Ama
Deckhand: Able Crewman Zei Yenob
Deckhand: Able Crewman Janine Powell
Culinary Technician / Medic: Able Crewman Taax
Deckhand: Crewman Apprentice Hunter Munro

Other than your line-up being a little more "Americanized" than I prefered, especially in the number of ranks - three PO ranks, and four Crewman ranks for a total of seven below chief seems excessive - I mostly like it, not sure about Intelligence Officer as a uniformed role in the "chain of command", I would have thought that a separate Intelligence Officer would be more like the NCIS Agent Afloat Program, working directly for either Starfleet Intelligence or Federation Security. But YMMV.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Other than your line-up being a little more "Americanized" than I prefered, especially in the number of ranks - three PO ranks, and four Crewman ranks for a total of seven below chief seems excessive - I mostly like it, not sure about Intelligence Officer as a uniformed role in the "chain of command", I would have thought that a separate Intelligence Officer would be more like the NCIS Agent Afloat Program, working directly for either Starfleet Intelligence or Federation Security. But YMMV.

Typically, I just go with three PO ranks and then just 'crewman', but this time I thought about trying something a little different, blending US and UK grades--still not sure of it though.

As for the role of "Intelligence Officer" it's more of an informal post, probably something more akin to a strategy or tactical officer, someone who keeps apprised of issues or potential threats going on in their patrol area. The First and Second Officers both have shifts to supervise, with additional duties carried out when called to action, so whilst one leads boarding missions the other is manning the sensor station on the bridge or, on rare occasions, the "B Team" on large-scale VBSS operations.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Typically, I just go with three PO ranks and then just 'crewman', but this time I thought about trying something a little different, blending US and UK grades--still not sure of it though.

A decent idea, certainly. A US-UK/US Commonwealth approach has always been my preference. However, I would suggest a slightly different approach based on comparative training and authority:

Recruit = Undertaking Basic Training, equivalent to Seaman Recruit (E1). Non-deployable.
(Ordinary) Crewman or Crewman Trainee = Undertaking "C School", equivalent of Seaman Apprentice (E-2). deployable, must be supervised.
(Able) Crewman = Qualified as a Rating, equivalent of a designated Seaman Apprentice (for example Taax would be Culinary Specialist Seaman Recruit) typically non-leadership but does 'out-rank' recruits and trainees, may be assigned as Independent Duty.
Leading Crewman or Crewman First Class = Experienced Rating, corresponds more to ground/air forces E4 (Specialist/Senior Airman) as they are typically billeted as an Independent Duty or trainer, but does have NCO status. NB: I prefer the latter as it's been used canonically, but YMMV.
Petty Officer = First primarily leadership role, corresponds to E4-E5.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy_ratings_rank_insignia#Current_(since_1975)

As for the role of "Intelligence Officer" it's more of an informal post, probably something more akin to a strategy or tactical officer, someone who keeps apprised of issues or potential threats going on in their patrol area. The First and Second Officers both have shifts to supervise, with additional duties carried out when called to action, so whilst one leads boarding missions the other is manning the sensor station on the bridge or, on rare occasions, the "B Team" on large-scale VBSS operations.

That makes sense to a degree. And not a bad idea by any means, I'd probably flip the Navigator and Intel positions though, the "Operations Officer" probably covers things like supplies and morale activities, so would have more avenues to acquire contacts, especially of the covert kind. Just a thought, again YMMV.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

That makes sense to a degree. And not a bad idea by any means, I'd probably flip the Navigator and Intel positions though, the "Operations Officer" probably covers things like supplies and morale activities, so would have more avenues to acquire contacts, especially of the covert kind. Just a thought, again YMMV.

On the Sentry, Lieutenant Linae, as my resident Deltan, is very much in charge of morale as she is typically the life and soul of the party (don't worry, her Oath of Celibacy is on file).

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Fair enough, I guess if Intel isn't a primary billet, then it might get passed around different officers on different ships. Similarly, while I sometimes wonder if there would be a collateral or primary "PT officer" onboard - probably either the medic or the Bosun on most ships but someone else might take it if they are a Vulcan suus mahna master or an Anbo-jitsu expert or something?

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

On misreading this thread title, it's occurred to me that a great Trek fic title would be "Too Many Chiefs, Not Enough Engines". Practically writes itself.

Mark

 

[oberth]

I was actually debating between that and a Lt. Cmdr. As I mentioned, Lt's commanded PT boats in WW2 so it wouldn't be out of the ordinary. I'd imagine if there was a mass mobilization like during a TOS era war (for example if the Organians hadn't prevented it with the Klingons) then lieutenantswould indeed be the standard skipper of these vessels. In the end I went with the Lt Cmdr instead as it's one rank below anything we've seen so far (Sisko as a full commander with the Defiant that has a crew of triple that of this ship). That said, it's not written but the second officer (the medical/science division head nurse) is a Lt (jg) to put him/her one rank below that of the first officer (the tactical full Lt). I was going back and forth between who I should make the first officer. I went with the tactical lt because his or her place would be on the bridge on alternating shifts with the skipper whereas the science/medical head would obviously by default be either in the medbay or lab. Obviously outside of emergencies, there would be additional crew on the bridge at the side wall consoles as well. I tried to make the bridge crew (the skipper and two ensigns) gold shirts hence their rank of ensign for the helmsman and navigator.

our u-boote typicly had an kapitänleutnant or an oberleutnant zur see as co (there are way too may kaleus in hollywood) an oberleutnant zur see is a measly ltjg in us navy terms. korvettenkapitän (ltcom) was a rank most german bubbleheads got posthumuosly or in staff positions.

i do accept, though that an archer is a bit more expensive than even a class XXIII u-boot but then a class VII had a crew compliment about 56.

any military that doesn't use proper auftragstaktik is topheavy in my book as it doesn' trust the lower ranks any further than they can throw them.

as starfleet is the american military in outer space (it's an american show after all) a ltcom as co sounds about right. pt-boats like our s-boote normally operated in some sort od a rudel, didn't they? i can't see a bunch of archers operating like that. with a 5 lightyear field of view (or somesuch) starfleet simply would sent a bigger ship.

caveat: i read none of the books in question

 

[SITZKRIEG!]

our u-boote typicly had an kapitänleutnant or an oberleutnant zur see as co (there are way too may kaleus in hollywood) an oberleutnant zur see is a measly ltjg in us navy terms. korvettenkapitän (ltcom) was a rank most german bubbleheads got posthumuosly or in staff positions.

i do accept, though that an archer is a bit more expensive than even a class XXIII u-boot but then a class VII had a crew compliment about 56.

any military that doesn't use proper auftragstaktik is topheavy in my book as it doesn' trust the lower ranks any further they can throw them.

as starfleet is the american military in outer space (it's an american show after all) a ltcom as co sounds about right. pt-boats like our s-boote normally operated in some sort od a rudel, didn't they? i can't see a bunch of archers operating like that. with a 5 lightyear field of view (or somesuch) starfleet simply would sent a bigger ship.

caveat: i read none of the books in question

That's a good point. I had been using PT boats as the basis for the roster which as you point out might not be the best choice. They did to my knowledge operate in squadrons whereas the Archer class likely would be independent more like a Pacific US submarine. My previous research showed that the PT boats typically had a LT commander for the squadron with other boats commanded by Lt (jg) and even some ensigns. US submarines on the other hand were about one full grade up on average with their skippers and are (despite their larger size and crew complements) probably a better fit for my comparison as they had (assuming this link is correct) LtCmdr to Lt as their commanding officers.

http://www.fleetorganization.com/subcommanders.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Torpedo_Boat_Squadron_Three

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Current SSNs rate a Commander as CO, and a CDR or LTCDR as XO, and have a crew of 100-150 depending on type. SSBNs used to rate a Captain as CO, but in recent years have been downgraded to a Commander-Commander billet. It's difficult to tell where diesel-electrics would fit, as modern d-e subs are a good deal larger than the old WWI and WWII designs and so have a higher ranked CO, the RAN Collins-class is one of the smaller d-e subs used by an Anglophone navy, and they're still around the 3,000 ton range with a crew of 50-60 (closer to the Defiant, CO = CMDR), rather than the est 1,000 tons and a crew of <50 of the early 20th C S-class subs. Lieutenant Commanders send to get support vessels as CO, not warships, for instance the USS Dextrous, a 1,300t minesweeper with a crew of 84 is the one of the smallest crewed ships that the Navy Cruise Books site has details on and is one of the few that only rates a LCDR.

NB: IMO PT boats are more akin to runabouts than any kind of starship, even a baby one.

 

[oberth]

Current SSNs rate a Commander as CO, and a CDR or LTCDR as XO, and have a crew of 100-150 depending on type. SSBNs used to rate a Captain as CO, but in recent years have been downgraded to a Commander-Commander billet. It's difficult to tell where diesel-electrics would fit, as modern d-e subs are a good deal larger than the old WWI and WWII designs and so have a higher ranked CO, the RAN Collins-class is one of the smaller d-e subs used by an Anglophone navy, and they're still around the 3,000 ton range with a crew of 50-60 (closer to the Defiant, CO = CMDR), rather than the est 1,000 tons and a crew of <50 of the early 20th C S-class subs. Lieutenant Commanders send to get support vessels as CO, not warships, for instance the USS Dextrous, a 1,300t minesweeper with a crew of 84 is the one of the smallest crewed ships that the Navy Cruise Books site has details on and is one of the few that only rates a LCDR.

NB: IMO PT boats are more akin to runabouts than any kind of starship, even a baby one.

in 2009 one of ours (U-24) had a 27 yo obeleutnant zur see as co. crew compliment was 22

whose 'modern' d-e subs would that be? the us navy has none, neither has the royal navy. with 56 metres over all they are shorter (about 2 metres) than a WW II class IX uboot

link (german, but babblefish's your friend)

eta: i'd take a runabout any time. comparing them to pt-boats is a bad joke. how far does a pt-boat get without a tender? if you want to compair them use archers pods as a yardstick.