Too many chiefs, not enough braves... Enlisted crew in TOS

[SITZKRIEG!]

Not sure if this is the best place for this but seeing as how I'll be specifically referencing the TOS Vanguard novels and changing the crew layouts (my own fanfic sort of), I'll start it here. Any one else annoyed a bit about the lack of visibility of enlisted personnel in the various trek series? Other than Chief O'Brien in DS9 (he's a bit player in TNG who rarely has more than a few seconds of screen time barring a few episodes), the enlisted crew of hero starships rarely if ever share the limelight with the senior officers. I feel that this is best exemplified by the crew of 14 on the small Archer class scouts in the Vanguard novels linked below.

https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Sagittarius_(NCC-1894)

A full captain rank skipper on a ship twice the length of a runabout (despite Sisko being a commander and given an entire space station and larger escort ship albeit in a different era)... along with two other senior officers, four junior officers, four noncommissioned officers, and only a single crewman. I just can't see these tiny scouts being such an elite posting to justify such a top heavy crew manifest in terms of leadership. That's basically a Galaxy class' bridge officer complement on something smaller in total than the top two decks of that ship. Even there being a full medical doctor on the ship doesn't make sense to me given how rare they are on larger ships proportionately in trek shows and even worse for real sea navy ships.

Obviously Starfleet was based in part on sea navies and I've been looking casually into contemporary ships of that era and prior and I was pleasantly surprised to find out that lowly Lt's were given command of PT boats with twice the crew complement of these scouts in WW2 and LtCmdrs were skippers of even larger subs. It's more of a mental exercise at the moment but I've been trying to rejig the crew of one of these scouts into something a bit more sustainable for Starfleet. If I ever win the lottery though I'd love to make a fan film set on one though. Regardless, here are some ideas I jotted down and I wanted to see if folks think it's too far in the other direction.

Skipper: Lt Cmdr Command

Tactical/First Officer: Lt Ops
Nurse/Second Officer: Lt Science

Helm: Ensign1 Command
Nav: Ensign2 Command

Science Specialist: NCO1 Science
Chief Eng: NCO2 Ops

Tech: Crewman1 Ops
Red Shirt/Scout: Crewman2 Ops

Lab Assistant: Crewman3 Science
Medic: Crewman4 Science

Tech: Crewman5 Ops
Lab Assistant: Crewman6 Science

Command: 3
Ops: 5
Med: 5

Sorry about the format but I was trying to count up the various departments as well as fit the crew realistically into the space given in Scott Bell-Fleitas' excellent fan deck plans for the vessel.

https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/sdy-archer-class-scout.php

I figure the skipper gets his own quarters, the two division heads share the other larger room (bunk beds), the two ensigns bunk together as do the NCOs, and the remaining 6 enlisted share the other 2 bunk bed rooms hotbunking as needed since at least one will always be on shift. From what I've been reading on modern navy subs, officers (commissioned and NCOs) don't typically hot bunk but the lowest rank enlisted typically do.

Thoughts?

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I love small crews and looked at how I would rework the crew on such a ship as the Archer-Class:

Bridge/Command
Commanding Officer: Lieutenant Commander
First/Chief Science Officer: Lieutenant
Second/Tactical Officer: Lieutenant
Helmsman/Navigator: Petty Officer 2nd Class
Communications Operator: Petty Officer 3rd Class

Medical/Science
Medical Officer: Lieutenant (j.g.)
Science Specialist: Petty Officer 1st Class
Corpsman/Science Specialist: Petty Officer 3rd Class

Engineering
Chief Engineering Officer: Senior Chief Petty Officer
Engineer's Mate: Petty Officer 1st Class
Engineer's Mate: Petty Officer 3rd Class

Operations/Security
Boatswain/Field Scout: Chief Petty Officer
Boatswain's Mate/Field Scout: Petty Officer 2nd Class
Boatswain's Mate/Field Scout: Petty Officer 2nd Class

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I think the crewing for a Australian Armidale-class patrol boat might be reasonably close with only a couple of tweaks. Using the template above:

Bridge/Command
Commanding Officer: Lieutenant Commander
First Officer/Tactical Officer: Lieutenant
Second/Navigator: Lieutenant
Watch Officer/Helmsman: Cadet or Ensign
Communications Officer: Crewman First Class*

Medical/Science
Medical Officer: Petty Officer
Corpsman/Chef: Able Crewman**

Engineering
Chief Engineering Officer: Chief Petty Officer
Engineer's Mate: Crewman First Class**
Engineer's Mate: Crewman First Class**

Operations/Security
Boatswain/Field Scout: Petty Officer
Boatswain's Mate/Field Scout: Crewman First Class**
Boatswain's Mate/Field Scout: Crewman First Class**
Boatswain's Mate/Field Scout: Crewman First Class**

* Roughly equivalent to a rated E3 (information systems technician fireman in this case).
** Roughly equivalent to a rated E2 (culinary specialist apprentice (medic)/medical technical apprentice depending on era)

 

[Tenacity]

Command: 3
Ops: 5
Med: 5

With a crew of just 13, maybe the commanding officer would be a senior lieutenant, the exec a ensign or a lieutenant (jg)?

Then a single low to mid level petty officer, and the rest junior enlisted.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I think that depends on the ship's role to a degree.

A response vessel, like it's ground forces counterpart, that basically goes out, does its job, comes back, and therefore the CO is more of a "command pilot" or "officer in command" rather than a semi-autonomous "commanding officer", I agree woulD probably be a lieutenant, with a most one commissioned officer under them. WWII torpedo boat destroyers and most USCG tugs and tenders IFAIK follow this model.

However, a patrol or recon vessel, which might be out for weeks to months, requires a slightly more experienced team, as they may need to exercise a degree of autonomy. This is why the Armidale and earlier Freemantle-class boats rated a LT CDR and two LTs rather than the usual one to two LTs (and one of those likely a sublieutenant/ensign or even a Middie anyway). This was also IIRC, the traditional reason why SSBN COs were O6 rather than O5 or even experienced O4s as with SSNs.

 

[SITZKRIEG!]

I love small crews and looked at how I would rework the crew on such a ship as the Archer-Class:

Spoiler

Bridge/Command
Commanding Officer: Lieutenant Commander
First/Chief Science Officer: Lieutenant
Second/Tactical Officer: Lieutenant
Helmsman/Navigator: Petty Officer 2nd Class
Communications Operator: Petty Officer 3rd Class

Medical/Science
Medical Officer: Lieutenant (j.g.)
Science Specialist: Petty Officer 1st Class
Corpsman/Science Specialist: Petty Officer 3rd Class

Engineering
Chief Engineering Officer: Senior Chief Petty Officer
Engineer's Mate: Petty Officer 1st Class
Engineer's Mate: Petty Officer 3rd Class

Operations/Security
Boatswain/Field Scout: Chief Petty Officer
Boatswain's Mate/Field Scout: Petty Officer 2nd Class
Boatswain's Mate/Field Scout: Petty Officer 2nd Class

I appreciate the response but I can't help but notice that the entire crew is effectively all officers (commisioned and NCOs). There isn't a single brave in the entire tribe; it's more like a council of chiefs.

 

[SITZKRIEG!]

I think the crewing for a Australian Armidale-class patrol boat might be reasonably close with only a couple of tweaks. Using the template above:

Spoiler

Bridge/Command
Commanding Officer: Lieutenant Commander
First Officer/Tactical Officer: Lieutenant
Second/Navigator: Lieutenant
Watch Officer/Helmsman: Cadet or Ensign
Communications Officer: Crewman First Class*

Medical/Science
Medical Officer: Petty Officer
Corpsman/Chef: Able Crewman**

Engineering
Chief Engineering Officer: Chief Petty Officer
Engineer's Mate: Crewman First Class**
Engineer's Mate: Crewman First Class**

Operations/Security
Boatswain/Field Scout: Petty Officer
Boatswain's Mate/Field Scout: Crewman First Class**
Boatswain's Mate/Field Scout: Crewman First Class**
Boatswain's Mate/Field Scout: Crewman First Class**

* Roughly equivalent to a rated E3 (information systems technician fireman in this case).
** Roughly equivalent to a rated E2 (culinary specialist apprentice (medic)/medical technical apprentice depending on era)

Thanks. I'll have to take a look at the ship type as I'm not immediately familiar with it. Are any of those science division btw? Are the scouts blue shirts? It's ostensibly a scout ship that should be competent on science as well (at least observation and short term experiments/exploration).

 

[SITZKRIEG!]

With a crew of just 13, maybe the commanding officer would be a senior lieutenant, the exec a ensign or a lieutenant (jg)?

Then a single low to mid level petty officer, and the rest junior enlisted.

I was actually debating between that and a Lt. Cmdr. As I mentioned, Lt's commanded PT boats in WW2 so it wouldn't be out of the ordinary. I'd imagine if there was a mass mobilization like during a TOS era war (for example if the Organians hadn't prevented it with the Klingons) then lieutenantswould indeed be the standard skipper of these vessels. In the end I went with the Lt Cmdr instead as it's one rank below anything we've seen so far (Sisko as a full commander with the Defiant that has a crew of triple that of this ship). That said, it's not written but the second officer (the medical/science division head nurse) is a Lt (jg) to put him/her one rank below that of the first officer (the tactical full Lt). I was going back and forth between who I should make the first officer. I went with the tactical lt because his or her place would be on the bridge on alternating shifts with the skipper whereas the science/medical head would obviously by default be either in the medbay or lab. Obviously outside of emergencies, there would be additional crew on the bridge at the side wall consoles as well. I tried to make the bridge crew (the skipper and two ensigns) gold shirts hence their rank of ensign for the helmsman and navigator.

 

[SITZKRIEG!]

I think that depends on the ship's role to a degree.

A response vessel, like it's ground forces counterpart, that basically goes out, does its job, comes back, and therefore the CO is more of a "command pilot" or "officer in command" rather than a semi-autonomous "commanding officer", I agree woulD probably be a lieutenant, with a most one commissioned officer under them. WWII torpedo boat destroyers and most USCG tugs and tenders IFAIK follow this model.

However, a patrol or recon vessel, which might be out for weeks to months, requires a slightly more experienced team, as they may need to exercise a degree of autonomy. This is why the Armidale and earlier Freemantle-class boats rated a LT CDR and two LTs rather than the usual one to two LTs (and one of those likely a sublieutenant/ensign or even a Middie anyway). This was also IIRC, the traditional reason why SSBN COs were O6 rather than O5 or even experienced O4s as with SSNs.

I'd agree that would be a reasonable alternate loadout for a ship this size especially during wartime. I'm surprised that there isn't any real pushback on the relative decrease of commisioned officers in my original post compared with the very top heavy official beta canon crew manifest. You do bring up another good point in that Navy ranks are not in common English parlance equivalent to other branches just in case anyone reading this isn't aware of that. A navy captain is the equivalent of an army/air force/marine Colonel. A captain in the other branches is the equivalent of a Navy Lt. Seeing as how a captain might be in command of upwards of 100+ others, it's reasonable that a navy one be in charge of 14 (or 13 in my case due to bed assignments) on a small ship.

I do imagine this as a ship that does maybe 3 month missions on average before a typical resupply at a starbase or federation planetary dock (maybe 6 months at max). Unlike with modern wet navy subs, the crew wouldn't be stuck inside the small vessel the entire time as I'd imagine that the exploratory nature of the scout vessel would give them plenty of planetside shore leave as the ship is fully capable of reentry and take off (and that IMO would be a standard part of the mission profile).

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Thanks. I'll have to take a look at the ship type as I'm not immediately familiar with it.

My knowledge of the class comes from the Australian tv series Sea Patrol, which was sponsered by the RAN and actually filmed in part aboard actual RAN patrol boats (Freemantles HMAS Wollongog and Ipswitch stood in for HMAS Hammersley and her cameo sister ship HMAS Kingston is s1, Armidale-class patrol boat HMAS Broome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Broome_(ACPB_90) was used for most of the filming of the Hammersley II from s2 onwards, but some pick-up filming was done on the HMAS Launceston.

Are any of those science division btw? Are the scouts blue shirts? It's ostensibly a scout ship that should be competent on science as well (at least observation and short term experiments/exploration).

Technically no in the RW, the "medic" is formally the "Navy Police Coxswain" which as it suggests are mostly concerned with ship's discipline (in conjunction with the Boatswain or "Buffer" (Boarding Team 2-i-C)) and helm duties so would probably wear either operations or command colors (personally I'd prefer the latter as IMO "command" should be restricted to senior officers and the 'chief of the boat'. The chef is considered part of logistics, so would wear operations by default (unless you're grouping the "staff roles" together under blue.

It might be worth trying to get some info on the berthings for the RAN survey motor launches which are the smallest RAN vessels to billet Hydrographic Systems Operators (the closest to a 'science officer' that I can find), trouble is, they are 'green water' vessels, not 'blue water' like the Armidales. The smallest 'science ships' in the RAN are the 71m long, 46 crew Hydrographic Survey Ships which are nearly the size of a frigate (and like the FFHs) rate a commander.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I appreciate the response but I can't help but notice that the entire crew is effectively all officers (commisioned and NCOs). There isn't a single brave in the entire tribe; it's more like a council of chiefs.

Well with such a small crew that would need to be cross trained in multiple disciplines, I opted for non-coms given their level of knowledge and experience over that of younger enlisted crew.

 

[SITZKRIEG!]

Well with such a small crew that would need to be cross trained in multiple disciplines, I opted for non-coms given their level of knowledge and experience over that of younger enlisted crew.

Fair enough. You do bring up a good point in that a ship this small would have a fair amount of cross training although I'd offer than enlisted crew are capable of that as well. Plus.. there are also the unlisted and unofficial roles like a traditional ship chef. The protein resequencer would be the baseline but I'd assume that someone would likely naturally graduate towards becoming the defacto chef on occasion depending on what fresh items are foraged for on various planets. Similarly there would likely be an unofficial morale/entertainment person. Now that I'm writing it out, I'm guessing the 14th crewmember would have to be Nelix's ancestor, lol.

 

[SITZKRIEG!]

My knowledge of the class comes from the Australian tv series Sea Patrol, which was sponsered by the RAN and actually filmed in part aboard actual RAN patrol boats (Freemantles HMAS Wollongog and Ipswitch stood in for HMAS Hammersley and her cameo sister ship HMAS Kingston is s1, Armidale-class patrol boat HMAS Broome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Broome_(ACPB_90) was used for most of the filming of the Hammersley II from s2 onwards, but some pick-up filming was done on the HMAS Launceston.



Technically no in the RW, the "medic" is formally the "Navy Police Coxswain" which as it suggests are mostly concerned with ship's discipline (in conjunction with the Boatswain or "Buffer" (Boarding Team 2-i-C)) and helm duties so would probably wear either operations or command colors (personally I'd prefer the latter as IMO "command" should be restricted to senior officers and the 'chief of the boat'. The chef is considered part of logistics, so would wear operations by default (unless you're grouping the "staff roles" together under blue.

It might be worth trying to get some info on the berthings for the RAN survey motor launches which are the smallest RAN vessels to billet Hydrographic Systems Operators (the closest to a 'science officer' that I can find), trouble is, they are 'green water' vessels, not 'blue water' like the Armidales. The smallest 'science ships' in the RAN are the 71m long, 46 crew Hydrographic Survey Ships which are nearly the size of a frigate (and like the FFHs) rate a commander.

I'll take a look at the link. Unfortunately, my knowledge of distinctly Aussie tv shows from my early childhood is limited to Skippy the Kangaroo. I just divided up the crew by division/shirt color just to keep track of who goes where due to the limited space (13 in my fanfic head cannon). With cross training and unofficial roles as mentioned in the previous post, I'd assume that someone would unofficially become the ships chef as needed along with other roles.

 

[Tenacity]

Would the ship have a actual board certified doctor, or would a well trained corpman/paramedic be more likely?

 

[SITZKRIEG!]

Would the ship have a actual board certified doctor, or would a well trained corpman/paramedic be more likely?

With the size of the ship and its crew and a comparison to both real world wet navy ships as well as the scarcity of doctors on much larger ships, I'd say it wouldn't be likely to have one. I can't recall more than two or three docs mentioned who served on each of the the various Enterprises (NX, 1701, 1701D) and there was only a single doctor and nurse on Voyager who died before the EMH needed to be activated for example. It's the primary reason I made a nurse the medical officer (Lt jg) with an enlisted medic assistant. It seemed like a reasonable middle ground to me.

 

[Admiral2]

Not sure if this is the best place for this but seeing as how I'll be specifically referencing the TOS Vanguard novels and changing the crew layouts (my own fanfic sort of), I'll start it here. Any one else annoyed a bit about the lack of visibility of enlisted personnel in the various trek series? Other than Chief O'Brien in DS9 (he's a bit player in TNG who rarely has more than a few seconds of screen time barring a few episodes), the enlisted crew of hero starships rarely if ever share the limelight with the senior officers. I feel that this is best exemplified by the crew of 14 on the small Archer class scouts in the Vanguard novels linked below.

https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/USS_Sagittarius_(NCC-1894)

A full captain rank skipper on a ship twice the length of a runabout (despite Sisko being a commander and given an entire space station and larger escort ship albeit in a different era)... along with two other senior officers, four junior officers, four noncommissioned officers, and only a single crewman. I just can't see these tiny scouts being such an elite posting to justify such a top heavy crew manifest in terms of leadership. That's basically a Galaxy class' bridge officer complement on something smaller in total than the top two decks of that ship. Even there being a full medical doctor on the ship doesn't make sense to me given how rare they are on larger ships proportionately in trek shows and even worse for real sea navy ships.

Obviously Starfleet was based in part on sea navies and I've been looking casually into contemporary ships of that era and prior and I was pleasantly surprised to find out that lowly Lt's were given command of PT boats with twice the crew complement of these scouts in WW2 and LtCmdrs were skippers of even larger subs. It's more of a mental exercise at the moment but I've been trying to rejig the crew of one of these scouts into something a bit more sustainable for Starfleet. If I ever win the lottery though I'd love to make a fan film set on one though. Regardless, here are some ideas I jotted down and I wanted to see if folks think it's too far in the other direction.

Skipper: Lt Cmdr Command

Tactical/First Officer: Lt Ops
Nurse/Second Officer: Lt Science

Helm: Ensign1 Command
Nav: Ensign2 Command

Science Specialist: NCO1 Science
Chief Eng: NCO2 Ops

Tech: Crewman1 Ops
Red Shirt/Scout: Crewman2 Ops

Lab Assistant: Crewman3 Science
Medic: Crewman4 Science

Tech: Crewman5 Ops
Lab Assistant: Crewman6 Science

Command: 3
Ops: 5
Med: 5

Sorry about the format but I was trying to count up the various departments as well as fit the crew realistically into the space given in Scott Bell-Fleitas' excellent fan deck plans for the vessel.

https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/sdy-archer-class-scout.php

I figure the skipper gets his own quarters, the two division heads share the other larger room (bunk beds), the two ensigns bunk together as do the NCOs, and the remaining 6 enlisted share the other 2 bunk bed rooms hotbunking as needed since at least one will always be on shift. From what I've been reading on modern navy subs, officers (commissioned and NCOs) don't typically hot bunk but the lowest rank enlisted typically do.

Thoughts?

In your examination of contemporary navies you shouldn't overlook the parts that are officer-heavy by design: the air wings. Remember that the guy who created Star Trek was a pilot, not a sailor, so the bulk of his experience with command/crew structures involves a glut of officers and a handful of enlisteds, which is probably the reason why trek crews tend to shake out this way. When working out the hero crew for Star Trek, MY Way, I knew I was going to stick with an officer-heavy structure, so I reconciled it in my head that MyWay Starfleet is a space Navy Air Wing. I still wouldn't give a full captain a small patrol craft to command, but I would have no problem overstocking the crew with commissioned officers.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

In your examination of contemporary navies you shouldn't overlook the parts that are officer-heavy by design: the air wings. Remember that the guy who created Star Trek was a pilot, not a sailor, so the bulk of his experience with command/crew structures involves a glut of officers and a handful of enlisteds, which is probably the reason why trek crews tend to shake out this way. When working out the hero crew for Star Trek, MY Way, I knew I was going to stick with an officer-heavy structure, so I reconciled it in my head that MyWay Starfleet is a space Navy Air Wing. I still wouldn't give a full captain a small patrol craft to command, but I would have no problem overstocking the crew with commissioned officers.

One of the biggest differences between even the largest planes and (star)ships is that the later bring their entire crew (esp maintence people) with them, whereas the former leave the most of their crew behind.

For instance a flight of planes - four to six aircraft - could have anything from four to a dozen flying personnel (mostly officers), but could have a total complement of as many as a hundred.

At the other end, the Carrier Air Wing (under a Captain) of a Ford-class numbers 1,500 in order keep a maximum of only 45-90 people flying at any time (I'm not sure if the CAW includes 'spare' pilots and flight crew, does anyone know?).

 

[Admiral2]

One of the biggest differences between even the largest planes and (star)ships is that the later bring their entire crew (esp maintence people) with them, whereas the former leave the most of their crew behind.

For instance a flight of planes - four to six aircraft - could have anything from four to a dozen flying personnel (mostly officers), but could have a total complement of as many as a hundred.

At the other end, the Carrier Air Wing (under a Captain) of a Ford-class numbers 1,500 in order keep a maximum of only 45-90 people flying at any time (I'm not sure if the CAW includes 'spare' pilots and flight crew, does anyone know?).

All true, and none of it invalidates what I said.

A starship with its entire crew-including maintenance personnel-could still be top-heavy with officers. There's no law that says all the maintainers have to be enlisteds and no law that says you need more maintainers aboard than operators. The overall crew structure will be determined by the needs of the spacecraft and the mission.

And keep in mind as you shout out irrelevant differences that the guy who created the original Trek starship used what he called "airplane logic" as part of his design philosophy, so treating a starship like one of "the largest airplanes" does not fall far outside the canon creator's thinking.

 

[admiralelm11]

Interesting...

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

And keep in mind as you shout out irrelevant differences that the guy who created the original Trek starship used what he called "airplane logic" as part of his design philosophy, so treating a starship like one of "the largest airplanes" does not fall far outside the canon creator's thinking.

Actually, he explicitedly used NASA logic, which he's not entirely wrong about - I can by that some college level credits would be required - I think a whole undergraduate degree is overkill for many positions (logistics, security, entry-level technicians that sort of thing).

On the other hand, his logic mostly works for the crew of a runabout, response vessel or even civilian freighter that spends most of its time docked at a station or at least has most of its maintence and support provided there. However, even there with a crew of five - based on a cargo transport - you're looking at three officers (pilot, co-pilot, weapons) and two NCOs (engineer and loadmaster). Interestly, the attack variant of the C-130 also gives an alternative answer to the OP as it has a total crew of 13 (pilot, copilot, navigator, fire control officer [tactical], electronic warfare officer [ops]) and 8 enlisted (flight engineer, TV operator [science/operations officer], infrared detection set operator [science/operations officer], loadmaster, four aerial gunners [armory/general duties]).