Tom Paris/Nick Locarno Question
- Thread starter LutherSloan
- Start date
We won't have your logic and your sense here, Christopher.
Just to make sure, I was of course applauding Lynx for a good joke, nothing more.
Okay, but how do you explain the two Darrins on Bewitched?
Imagine that! The audacity of the suggestion! 
Well, he was married to a witch...
Harking back to the discussion of people who's names are shown at the start of the show, and the difference between "Starring" and "Also Starring", can anybody tell me why it is that, on Stargate SG1, after Michael Shanks played Daniel Jackson for 6 years (or so), when he returned he was, from then on, always credited as "also starring Michael Shanks as Daniel Jackson", at the end of the opening credits? Even in the two following movies?
Was it a legal issue? Creative? Personal?
That always bugged me.
Was it a legal issue? Creative? Personal?
That always bugged me.
A bit of all three. His agent would have fought for that special billing, as part of the producers being so desperate to get back the actor.
That's why Jonathan Harris was a "Special Guest Star" in "Lost in Space", even though he was in every episode of every season. His contract specified his billing. And Diana Muldaur and Whoopi Goldberg's agents locked in their "Special Guest Appearance by..." TNG credits.
George Takei's credits are interesting to watch in each ST movie, and the position of his name reflects how hard the studio had to battle to get him to sign. Sometimes he's before Walter Koenig (ie. cast seniority in TMP), sometimes the credits are alphabetical (useful for Koenig's larger part in ST II), and once he especially negotiated an "And George Takei", deliberately choosing to be last in the list.
Spare a thought for Judson Scott (ST II). An avid science fiction fan, he was disappointed he wasn't going to be in the opening credits of ST II, because he and his agent believed he was about to become a huge star with "The Phoenix" pilot (already filmed) and TV series. They tried to negotiate a prominent credit and failed. Then Scott thought he was getting "And featuring Judson Scott as Joachim" right at the end of the cast list that scrolls in the end credits - but to his surprise, on opening night, "waived billing" turned out to mean no billing at all, which is something a high calibre Oscar-winning star (eg. Whoopi Goldberg in "Generations") will do if they don't want to oust the main star in the opening credits.
But why? What benefit is it to the actor in question?
As a fan, I felt that he was being done a disservice. And someone who is 'in the business' surely wouldn't care where an actors name appears on a show, because they already know who the guy is.
As a fan, I felt that he was being done a disservice. And someone who is 'in the business' surely wouldn't care where an actors name appears on a show, because they already know who the guy is.
Position in credits is extremely important. To the actors and their agents. Like in any advertising, the aim is to make your "brand" more prominent than others'. There's no right or wrong way.
The credits aren't made for the fans; they reflect the importance of the cast members to the production, and that importance can be recognised in many ways.
Keep in mind that when Michael Shanks left his TV show, he relinquished his oiginal position in the credits. His return could not be seen to demote the replacement actor, who now held the top position contractually, so an alternative credit had to be negotiated.
The situation was a little more complicated there, since it was actually the first time that special billing was ever used. Harris was added to the cast after the pilot, and therefore after all the other actors' credit placement had already been negotiated. So the only place they could put him was last, but it didn't seem kosher to list him after a bunch of kids who were getting paid less. So they invented the idea of a special notation accompanying his billing to call attention to him. When that succeeded, it was adopted for Kurt Kasznar in Land of the Giants as well, being deliberately done that way instead of as an afterthought. And it evolved into the kind of prestige credits we have today.
Show a typical human being a list of names. Let them look it over briefly. Come back a few minutes later and ask them which names they remember from the list. Most of the time, the names they remember best are going to be the first name and the last name. That's just the way the mind works.
Put someone at the end of the credits with an "And" or "With" or "And Starring" before their name, or with "As [Character]" after their name, and it makes them stand out more than anyone else in the cast list. A credit like that is considered prestige billing, second only to top billing.
When an actor leaves a show and a new actor comes in to replace him, the new actor usually gets added at the end of the list because of their junior position, and the other actors get bumped up. So when Michael Shanks left Stargate, Amanda Tapping and Christopher Judge each got bumped up one space in the credits, to second and third rather than third and fourth, with newcomer Corin Nemec getting slotted in behind them (though I think he was still ahead of Don Davis, who was kind of a second-tier regular). When Shanks came back, they couldn't put him back in second place, since that would constitute a demotion, and probably a salary cut, for Tapping and Judge. (The same reason they couldn't stick Jonathan Harris earlier in the credits when he was added to LiS.) But Shanks still deserved better than unadorned last-place billing, so they gave him a prestige "And Michael Shanks as Daniel Jackson" credit.
I've actually been wondering about this kind of thing for a while too, and what you said is pretty much what I had assumed was going on. It actually seems to be a fairly common thing when someone leaves and comes back, or if someone ends up becoming a big star while they are filming the show. For instance, after a few seasons Buffy changed Alyson Hannigan's credit to "and Alyson Hannigan as Willow", and Prison Break had three in the last season "with Sarah Wayne Callies", "with Jodi Lyn O'Keefe" "and William Fitchner". Hmm, so I wonder what show has had the most special credits in the opening?
Okay, I sort of get it, if it's just a showing of prestige, but I can't imagine it has much to do with anything else. Assuredly I just don't know enough about the tv industry (probably nothing), but I'm sure you wouldn't hire someone based on where their name appeared on a cast list, but on the quality of their performance instead.
However, billing order does help to suggest the percentage of importance of each character that you will generally find throughout the show. So if you love Michael Shanks, but hate Ben Browder, you can look at the credits and use them as a basis for assuming how much you will enjoy the following program. (Wow, that even sounds convoluted to me!)
However, billing order does help to suggest the percentage of importance of each character that you will generally find throughout the show. So if you love Michael Shanks, but hate Ben Browder, you can look at the credits and use them as a basis for assuming how much you will enjoy the following program. (Wow, that even sounds convoluted to me!)
^Credits are about who gets paid how much. That's it. It's not about importance to the story, it's not about screen time, it's not about performance quality, it's just about money. A prestige credit isn't about prestige, it's just a symbol of a high salary. Shanks couldn't get put back into second billing because that would've meant a pay cut for Tapping and Judge, but he couldn't just get a bare-bones final credit because that would mean getting paid less than the others. But getting "And" and "as Daniel Jackson" appended to his name meant getting paid more. Or rather, it represents the fact that he's getting paid more.
Money. That makes total sense. Thank you!
Hope I didn't come off as too stupid
Hope I didn't come off as too stupid
Why would Amanda Tapping and Chris Judge have to take a pay cut if the billing was switched up? Shanks was probably making more as it is. Maybe if he was getting paid proportionately less for seasons 7-10 than he was for seasons 1-5 that would make sense, but if he was still making more than Tapping and Judge for 7-10, then shouldn't the billing have reverted to the way it was?
A former star returning to his old show doesn't nullify the specifications of the other actors' existing contracts.
(Responding to Paris) But it's not relative. Tapping was making what a second-billed regular makes. Therefore, she had to stay second-billed. If Shanks was making more than that amount, then he'd have to be either first-billed or last-billed with a prestige credit. And of course RDA was first-billed.
There's a clearly defined formula for the relationship between credit and payment, worked out over decades. It's got complexities that most of us never contemplate. I'm probably not even getting all the details right, but what I do know is that credit position isn't arbitrary and can't be rearranged capriciously. It's all the result of very specific contractual clauses.
There's a clearly defined formula for the relationship between credit and payment, worked out over decades. It's got complexities that most of us never contemplate. I'm probably not even getting all the details right, but what I do know is that credit position isn't arbitrary and can't be rearranged capriciously. It's all the result of very specific contractual clauses.
So why did Ben Browder jump straight up to top billing? Was he automatically being paid more than Tapping and Judge? That seems a little unfair, doesn't it?
Why, when RDA left, didn't Tapping and Judge move up the list, just like they did when Shanks left? Why wasn't Browder third, with Shanks following under a special billing?
Why, when RDA left, didn't Tapping and Judge move up the list, just like they did when Shanks left? Why wasn't Browder third, with Shanks following under a special billing?
^Because Ben Browder was hired on as the new lead of of not only the SG-1 team, but also the show. Amanda Tapping missed the first 6 episodes (a small cameo in ep.1), and Chris Judge was still the "side-kick". I surmise that Michael Shanks kept his new billing because, as Christopher said, it's about prestige.
Of course there are exceptions to the rule, because there are other rules that come into play. If someone is hired specifically as the star rather than a member of an ensemble, naturally they get the top billing. As I said, Corin Nemec got slotted in above Don Davis because, even though he was a newer cast member, he was on a higher tier in the cast.
So there are a lot of factors that go into it. The point is that there is a specific, contractually determined reason for the position and style of every screen credit, and that they can't be rearranged arbitrarily.
Personally I think Tapping should've gotten top billing and Carter should've led the team. But as Paris said, Tapping's maternity leave required her to miss the first 30% of the 9th season, so it wasn't practical for her to be the series lead.
Anyway, given that "Browder" comes alphabetically before "Tapping," it's possible that the two of them technically had equal billing, since alphabetical order is one way of doing that. I don't know if that's the case, but it's possible. (This is why new Trek cast members like Nicole de Boer and Jeri Ryan didn't get last place in the credits -- because aside from the lead actor, or the two lead actors in the case of TNG, all the cast was billed alphabetically.)
And no, I didn't say it was about prestige. I said it was about what's negotiated in the contract and how much you get paid. Shanks kept his billing because his contract said that was his billing. Changing the billing would mean renegotiating the contract.
So there are a lot of factors that go into it. The point is that there is a specific, contractually determined reason for the position and style of every screen credit, and that they can't be rearranged arbitrarily.
Personally I think Tapping should've gotten top billing and Carter should've led the team. But as Paris said, Tapping's maternity leave required her to miss the first 30% of the 9th season, so it wasn't practical for her to be the series lead.
Anyway, given that "Browder" comes alphabetically before "Tapping," it's possible that the two of them technically had equal billing, since alphabetical order is one way of doing that. I don't know if that's the case, but it's possible. (This is why new Trek cast members like Nicole de Boer and Jeri Ryan didn't get last place in the credits -- because aside from the lead actor, or the two lead actors in the case of TNG, all the cast was billed alphabetically.)
And no, I didn't say it was about prestige. I said it was about what's negotiated in the contract and how much you get paid. Shanks kept his billing because his contract said that was his billing. Changing the billing would mean renegotiating the contract.
