Poll To all forum members : Is Enterprise your favorite Trek show?

[FederationHistorian]

DS9 I see as something of an outlier. It's a great show. It's just a great show that... doesn't quite scratch the itch the way that TNG and VOY do. I jockey DS9 and ENT for the #3 spot... I usually lean towards ENT being #3. Although in reality, I get more nitty gritty and rank by seasons. Seasons REALLY matter in Star Trek. PIC S3 and ENT S4 are #1 and #2 respectively. TNG 3-7 rank #3. VOY and DS9 get a bit in the weeds, with ENT 1 and 2 sprinkled in there somewhere. Dead last is easy, DSC S1 and 2. (the list evolves, sometimes DSC 3-4 get moved up above DS9 S1 and TNG S1, although realistically I would probably watch those over DSC so... idk.)

Both DS9 and ENT took awhile to get going. But whereas DS9 got itself together out of the gate come S3 and remained really good for the rest of its run, ENT still took half of S3 to get really good. A couple of episodes notwithstanding. Even fans of ENT admit that the second episode of the season should have been the season three premiere.

That's putting it lightly. I know you were in the trenches with me back in the day and I don't need to tell you how relentless Archer bashers were to the point some people wanted to kill him off and make Trip the captain.


He's gotten a bit of redemption by much of fandom in the last few years, though.

Archer did not need to be killed off, though that could have made S4 very different and made S3 very consequential. But he could have become lost in time and become Future Guy. Or at least lose the pre-ordained future.

Oh my goodness! That’s awful! What a horrible thing to say! Also, I love, love, love Trip but nah, not at all interested in seeing him be captain.


Like it or not, Archer, T’Pol and Trip were the main characters — the Kirk, Spock and Bones of their show. Who says something like “They should have killed Kirk off”? And then what? Had only two main characters? Suddenly shine the light on someone in the background? At least on TOS, if you brought Uhura into the spotlight, you’d have some idea who you were getting. Hoshi and Travis were sadly and sorely underutilized — I 100% agree with that — but it was so grievously obvious they were practically nonentities and suddenly spotlighting them would make that oversight even more blatant. What did these viewers even have in mind?

Seven came aboard Voyager in S4 and become central to the show for the remained of its run. Hoshi and Travis both being spotlighted

I think choosing either of them to be spotlighted for seasons 5, 6, and 7, or even bringing a new character that’s a hybrid of them (and Reed as well, tbh) could have worked in theory.

But with Shran in the works of being brought aboard for S5, to put the spotlight three of the four founding species of the Federation, Hoshi and Travis would have still been overlooked. Unless the show started to take a TNG/DS9 approach, or there was a spinoff based on Columbia and the characters transferred over to that show.

Which is what I think the issue really was. ENT could have still been like TOS in embracing the TOS lore and the moral ambiguity of TOS, while retaining the habits of TNG and DS9 of spotlighting multiple characters at once.

Trip's attitude toward the Vulcans (and arguably broader xenophobia) would have been enough to keep me from wanting to see him as captain for an extended period of time (for those who watched it, think of Saul Tigh's tenure as commander of Galactica).

Would Trip temporarily being a captain been a bad thing?

Imagine a multi episode arrc where Trip does get promoted, he does learn from his mistakes and preconceptions, and he still gets demoted even when he is clearly in the right for once. It would have worked well in showing that Starfleet or the Vulcans not getting it right all of the time.

...I guess in the end I just really don't quite understand why people particularly liked Trip as a character, which I'll freely grant may be a Me Problem.

His S3 arc changed everything. That was when Trip became a more likeable character, imo. Before then, he was basically a ‘00s version of Stamets from the first couple of seasons of DIS.

 

[DonIago]

Trip temporarily being a captain could have been an interesting thing, but I'm not sure it would have been a good thing. When part of my issue with ENT and VOY is that the captain sometimes seems to be portrayed as being able to do no wrong, it would have been galling to see Trip promoted (even temporarily) and have TPTB make an even more overt attempt to portray his xenophobia as being okay. That said, I grant that his attitudes changed over time (though I would have liked that to be less directly linked with his developing feelings for T'Pol and more with him just developing a more open mind), so it might have depended on when in the series they did this.

I kind of enjoyed Cranky!Stamets earlier in DISCO's run, but Trip, at least earlier on, seemed to be kind of a futuristic southern Good Ol' Boy stereotype, and I'm not really sure whether that was intended to be endearing or kind of...not endearing.

 

[Lord Hierarch]

Technically we got temp!Trip!Captain in the Kirshara trilogy.

Gunboat diplomacy, ho!!

Disco actually is bringing in new fans and is some people's favorite though. Enterprise actively repelled fans with how low the ratings dropped. Not exactly an equivalent situation.

You're really going to say Enterprise didn't bring in new fans?

With how DISC is disliked, LD, PROD, PIC, and SNW should not exist.

 

[Sumire]

I am absolutely 100% happy with Trip as a temporary captain (alarming events that put him in the position aside) but I still wouldn’t want to see him be the captain permanently in Enterprise.

It surprises me to see Trip described as generally xenophobic. He certainly does jump to erroneous conclusions, such as when he tries to stop the Lorillian mother from weaning her child, but that definitely came out of a desire to protect the Lorillian child which while founded on ignorance of their physiological needs certainly does not stem from a distaste for them as aliens.

I may not agree with his takes on Vulcans (I personally love Vulcans myself and find the more ambiguous start of the Vulcan/Human alliance to be fascinating) or encourage the unexamined and unprocessed trauma behind his emotional reactions to the Xindi but I would hardly call him a blanket xenophobe.

It’s all played for a laugh but look at the actual plot points of Unexpected. 1) Trip goes through some pretty awful physical experiences just to attempt to help aliens humanity has never encountered before. He’s totally on his own, with no ability for backup to arrive without a very significant time lag if at all, merely trusting the Xyrillians to be friendly without anything more than their assurance. 2) He willingly and cheerfully eats food he’s never encountered before, engages in recreation he is likewise unfamiliar with and treats these new technologies and this new alien species with curiosity and acceptance rather than condescension or aggression. 3) He finds out that he has unknowingly been impregnated with a Xyrillian fetus, this was completely without his consent, and all he does is try to protect it and find the ship again so it can be safely returned to its people.

Think about that. Truly think about that. If you found out an alien had placed an offspring inside you, one who was nourished via your body, and able to change your body to better accommodate itself, would you care for it or would you be yelling at your doctor to “get it out of me immediately!!!” Trip is unhappy with people treating it all as a joke (most of us would be, I think), but he doesn’t ever speak of Ah'len with anger or ill will. He takes it all with remarkable good humor and understanding.

 

[tomalak301]

Enterprise is probably my 4th favorite Trek show now, after TNG/DS9 (Tied for first), Lower Decks, and Voyager. I enjoy rewatching it and I enjoyed what it was trying to do at the time, especially Season 3. I do wish it had a longer run (And Manny Coto, RIP, was given a chance to really sell his vision of the series) but it is what it is.

 

[TheAdmiralty]

Technically we got temp!Trip!Captain in the Kirshara trilogy.

Gunboat diplomacy, ho!!

You're really going to say Enterprise didn't bring in new fans?

With how DISC is disliked, LD, PROD, PIC, and SNW should not exist.

Not in any critical mass and the data supports that. I was there at the time, the only people watching it were established Trek fans, a lot of normies didn't even know there was a Star Trek show on anymore because the ratings were so bad (and admittedly UPN did a half assed job promoting it too)

 

[fireproof78]

Think about that. Truly think about that. If you found out an alien had placed an offspring inside you, one who was nourished via your body, and able to change your body to better accommodate itself, would you care for it or would you be yelling at your doctor to “get it out of me immediately!!!” Trip is unhappy with people treating it all as a joke (most of us would be, I think), but he doesn’t ever speak of Ah'len with anger or ill will. He takes it all with remarkable good humor and understanding.

It should not be played for laughs.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

It was played lightly and with nuance. The problem should be if it was prudent played for laughs, which it was not.

 

[fireproof78]

Sorry, I have no humor over rape plot lines.

 

[Anna Yolei]

You're really going to say Enterprise didn't bring in new fans?

I was one of those new fans

I'd say out of the active users who were here in the first run of the series, a good third of them were pretty new to Trek.

There isn't a Trek series in existence that doesn't bring in at least a few new fans, including Picard, which was absolutely not n00b friendly at all.

 

[FederationHistorian]

It should not be played for laughs.

Considering that Archer handled T’Pol’s mind meld rape badly too, - not for laughs, just nor reporting it to the Vulcan High Command or to Starfleet – its clear that he has issues with this subject.

That probably goes double for the writers.

 

[Takeru]

Trip as captain? That would have been the worst decision possible! And I say that despite Trip being one of the better characters the show had but he was completely unqualified for command, had Archer left for one reason or another why would starfleet promote Trip and not give the job to someone else? Real world reasons like not hiring and paying another actor don't count, I'm looking for in universe reasons and I just can't see any. Trip is an engineer, a good one but he has even less diplomatic skill than Archer, he's the shoot first ask questions later guy, he's not politically minded at all, he has almost no filter and blurts out every thought he has immediately. He'd probably piss of every alien race he encountered and his starfleet superiors at the same time while driving the crew insane because instead if being the captain he'd still act like chief engineer half the time micro managing the actual new chief engineer because engineering is what he's actually interested in.

 

[Dukhat]

Trip as captain? That would have been the worst decision possible! And I say that despite Trip being one of the better characters the show had but he was completely unqualified for command, had Archer left for one reason or another why would starfleet promote Trip and not give the job to someone else? Real world reasons like not hiring and paying another actor don't count, I'm looking for in universe reasons and I just can't see any. Trip is an engineer, a good one but he has even less diplomatic skill than Archer, he's the shoot first ask questions later guy, he's not politically minded at all, he has almost no filter and blurts out every thought he has immediately. He'd probably piss of every alien race he encountered and his starfleet superiors at the same time while driving the crew insane because instead if being the captain he'd still act like chief engineer half the time micro managing the actual new chief engineer because engineering is what he's actually interested in.

And that would have been perfect. Show a completely unqualified captain of Earth's primary exploration ship screwing up all the time precisely because he is so unqualified. Have him be responsible for the major fuckup that ended up creating the Prime Directive. Show exactly how bad humans were in outer space, necessitating the need for Vulcan help rather than making the Vulcans out to be assholes. Show that this is why we've never heard of the NX-01 Enterprise before; the Federation wants to forget it ever existed.

That's a show I would happily watch.

 

[Takeru]

And that would have been perfect. Show a completely unqualified captain of Earth's primary exploration ship screwing up all the time precisely because he is so unqualified. Have him be responsible for the major fuckup that ended up creating the Prime Directive. Show exactly how bad humans were in outer space, necessitating the need for Vulcan help rather than making the Vulcans out to be assholes. Show that this is why we've never heard of the NX-01 Enterprise before; the Federation wants to forget it ever existed.

That's a show I would happily watch.

Being unqualified and fucking up is basically Archer's entire character and it already showed why Vulcan's help was a necessity, T'Pol was right pretty much every time she opened her mouth only to be overruled by Archer. No need to screw over Trip by giving him a job he doesn't even want.

 

[Dukhat]

Being unqualified and fucking up is basically Archer's entire character and it already showed why Vulcan's help was a necessity, T'Pol was right pretty much every time she opened her mouth only to be overruled by Archer. No need to screw over Trip by giving him a job he doesn't even want.

But the problem was that Archer was never treated as a screwup, nor was his treatment of T’Pol called out, because the audience was supposed to be sympathetic toward the humans for the Vulcans having held them back. It was never once intimated that holding the humans back was in fact the correct thing to do, and that the Vulcans were actually doing them a favor. Instead the Vulcans were treated as the jerks and the humans were treated as the victims. This is one of the reasons why I ended up disliking the show.

 

[Takeru]

But the problem was that Archer was never treated as a screwup, nor was his treatment of T’Pol called out, because the audience was supposed to be sympathetic toward the humans for the Vulcans having held them back. It was never once intimated that holding the humans back was in fact the correct thing to do, and that the Vulcans were actually doing them a favor. Instead the Vulcans were treated as the jerks and the humans were treated as the victims. This is one of the reasons why I ended up disliking the show.

Agreed, the show never calling out how stupid Archer is was a problem, it was blindingly obvious and I'm not sure why the writers chose to write him like that. If the goal was to show humans as being right, why not make Archer good at his job and the Vulcans overly cautious? They didn't even have two write the Vulcans as slightly antagonistic, they could have been genuinely well meaning but too concerned, there still would have been room for humans to screw up to not make the vulcans concerns look completely unjustified. But somehow they decided that Archer being a doofus and T'Pol good at everything and nice onto of it was the better choice.

 

[PoorSailorsAirline]

I am absolutely 100% happy with Trip as a temporary captain (alarming events that put him in the position aside) but I still wouldn’t want to see him be the captain permanently in Enterprise.

Trip as captain? That would have been the worst decision possible! And I say that despite Trip being one of the better characters the show had but he was completely unqualified for command, had Archer left for one reason or another why would starfleet promote Trip and not give the job to someone else? [...] Trip is an engineer, a good one but he has even less diplomatic skill than Archer, he's the shoot first ask questions later guy, he's not politically minded at all, he has almost no filter and blurts out every thought he has immediately.

Oddly, the only one in that command crew who I ever thought would want a run at the centre seat is Reed. He'd light up the sky like New Year's if he had the firepower and command. (Well, and Hays, but that never went well either.)
T'Pol - as the series progressed and she became more Starfleet/less Vulcan High Command, she seemed to take command as a reluctant necessity of being the executive officer instead of resident Vulcan-in-charge. I don't think she was ever angling for a command of her own. At least in Starfleet.
Trip - Again, has to CO sometimes as 3rd ranking officer, but he never seems thrilled about it. Maybe because, after all, he was always in charge when something alarming was happening. But I never got the command vibe from him. Pecan pie, T'Pol and a Warp 7 engine would be his dream, I'd think. Not ordering a ship around on patrol duty.
Phlox - Only ever seems in charge when it's forced on him because the doom cloud of the week means he's the only one conscious, or something. Head of a science ministry somewhere, absolutely, but starship captain? Nah. (Also, not Starfleet or high command so...?)
Hoshi - Didn't even want to be in space; probably crushing it at that mirror empress thing though.
Travis - Isn't he what...24? 25? I know this is the franchise that brought us Wesley Crusher, but still seems like Travis wouldn't be that high up even if the show went seven seasons.

Reed is the only one who comes across to me as actually eager for command.

My two picks for rewritten Enterprise captains are Shran and Porthos.

It’s all played for a laugh but look at the actual plot points of Unexpected. 1) Trip goes through some pretty awful physical experiences just to attempt to help aliens humanity has never encountered before. He’s totally on his own, with no ability for backup to arrive without a very significant time lag if at all, merely trusting the Xyrillians to be friendly without anything more than their assurance. 2) He willingly and cheerfully eats food he’s never encountered before, engages in recreation he is likewise unfamiliar with and treats these new technologies and this new alien species with curiosity and acceptance rather than condescension or aggression. 3) He finds out that he has unknowingly been impregnated with a Xyrillian fetus, this was completely without his consent, and all he does is try to protect it and find the ship again so it can be safely returned to its people.

Think about that. Truly think about that. If you found out an alien had placed an offspring inside you, one who was nourished via your body, and able to change your body to better accommodate itself, would you care for it or would you be yelling at your doctor to “get it out of me immediately!!!” Trip is unhappy with people treating it all as a joke (most of us would be, I think), but he doesn’t ever speak of Ah'len with anger or ill will. He takes it all with remarkable good humor and understanding.

Huh. I always thought this was just a goofy gag episode, but that's a new (and much smarter) way of looking at it. Thanks.

I was one of those new fans

Me too. Well, sort of. Never got into VOY. Was at risk of permanent ejection from any fandom, but ENT got me back in.

Agreed, the show never calling out how stupid Archer is was a problem, it was blindingly obvious and I'm not sure why the writers chose to write him like that.

S3/S4 Archer was problematic and flawed, but he was at least compelling. He desperately needed that bit of an edge to him. S1/S2 Archer is--I've said it before and I'll say in again--the annoying Ned Flanders of the Alpha Quadrant. If the show went on, I think Archer was finally starting to get interesting. 100% agree they should have done a bit more with his naiveté and lack of experience. If your first mission is to take a Klingon gunshot wound victim to Qo'nos with a bunch of creepy space salamanders in pursuit...ya got zero reason to be that clueless from episode #3 onwards. Archer having a bit of self-reflection wouldn't have been a bad subplot.

 

[Moviefan2k4]

My basic stance on this is "far from it". I honestly think its the worst show from the Berman era. Its nothing personal against Scott Bakula, or anyone else involved - the whole thing just felt completely out of place for its setting. None of the characters really felt authentic to me either, and I've read many times that the writers had a ton of problems during the first two seasons, trying to even things out. By the time Season 3 started, it was too late, and quite frankly I'm surprised it was renewed for a fourth at the time.

 

[Jack Wolfe]

The poll is missing a needed fourth option: "Ew, no."

 

[Daedalus]

Joint third with Voyager, after TNG and TOS.

Trouble is, I was far too obsessed with Farscape to really care about it when it aired, and I have a weird feeling that it was shown at an odd time in the UK. So, I was a late convert.