TNG vs DS9 - The Showdown!

[Praetor]

Man, I may have to vote for TNG on principle, then.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Man, I may have to vote for TNG on principle, then.

I went with DS9 for various reasons. But TNG's first season alone, and most of its second season, was just awful. DS9's first two seasons are a bit slow, I admit, but TNG's first two seasons were like dental work; painful.

And...well...Jadzia/Kira/Ezri/Leeta are so fricking hot looking! Nothing against Troi and Crusher (sorry, never a YAR fan) but, ummm, DS9's babes were hotter. Throw in a few lesbian kisses here and there and its no contest...

Plus..we got the Defiant. ENT-D was a very ugly ship...

Rob

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I know we've started to get back on track, but let's try to not side track this into DS9 vs. Voyager again. Obviously, that's an argument that's taken place before and will take place again, but it deserves its own thread.

 

[GalaxyX]

Tasha Yar?! Seriously? I thought she was just a rather lame and unsuccessful attempt to produce a "strong female character". I can't even think of anything interesting about her.
Man-hating? Which men did Kira hate, apart from Cardassian war criminals?

Maybe Man hating is too strong a word, but man why does every "tough" woman have to show it by having a stick up her ass? Why the bitchiness and general hateful/spiteful attitude against everyone (not just men).
I do admit that she changed for the better as the series progressed.
As for Tasha, well she was tough as nails. She fought hand to hand with a skilled warrior lady, she kicked the guy's ass from that Q created 21st century trial, and she was not afraid to take on the Ferengi (when they were still the TNG bad ass enemies). It was clear also that she had a crappy past based on a few episodes. Yet she didn't have to go around screaming to everyone and basically showing off her "female" machoness (or whatever you might call it)

Don't bother, look at the results, it's already wiping the floor with TNG

The board says one thing. Real life says otherwise

 

[TheGodBen]

The board says one thing. Real life says otherwise

The board is not real life? So I don't have to wear fancy clothes every time I post here?

€3,000 on suits wasted.

 

[DevilEyes]

Don't bother, look at the results, it's already wiping the floor with TNG

The board says one thing. Real life says otherwise

Everyone I know in real life that I've ever discussed Star Trek with thinks that DS9 is the best Trek series. (The only exceptions are two people who have watched TOS decades ago but haven't seen any other Trek show.) True, these are just 5 or 6 people, but they are all very different, some of them are not even they're not my circle of friends, so it's a pretty random sample.

Tasha Yar?! Seriously? I thought she was just a rather lame and unsuccessful attempt to produce a "strong female character". I can't even think of anything interesting about her.
Man-hating? Which men did Kira hate, apart from Cardassian war criminals?

Maybe Man hating is too strong a word, but man why does every "tough" woman have to show it by having a stick up her ass? Why the bitchiness and general hateful/spiteful attitude against everyone (not just men).
I do admit that she changed for the better as the series progressed.
As for Tasha, well she was tough as nails. She fought hand to hand with a skilled warrior lady, she kicked the guy's ass from that Q created 21st century trial, and she was not afraid to take on the Ferengi (when they were still the TNG bad ass enemies). It was clear also that she had a crappy past based on a few episodes. Yet she didn't have to go around screaming to everyone and basically showing off her "female" machoness (or whatever you might call it)

Yes, Tasha was good at fighting and beating people up, and that served her well in her job. And when all you have to do is beat people up, without having to command, or deal with politicians in complicated post-occupation environment, you don't have to be "spiteful". I can't really think of anything you could call 'character development' or a single interesting storyline she'd ever had before "Yesterday's Enterprise", though (unless you count banging Data while under 'influence' as an interesting storyline).

 

[Thrall]

I would've signed everything you wrote, if it weren't for the BSG remark. I suspect you've never actually watched BSG or didn't see more than one or two episodes. BSG characters are indeed darker and edgier and more obviously flawed than those on DS9 (or TOS), but none of them, except maybe one or two, were horrible people without any virtues who never tried to make things better or never strived to better themselves, and BSG certainly did not carry a message that the future sucks, that humanity sucks and that one shouldn't bother changing things. (BSG also did not even take place in the future.)Quite the opposite, most of the characters were doing quite fine considering the horrible situation they were in (for which there is nothing comparable in the entire world of Trek), they were fighting and hoping, and since the pilot, the importance hope in all the darkness (Earth, to the Colonial humans, represented hope) was one of the show's most important themes. The question of the bad and the good within humanity was constantly asked throughout the series (Adama's speech about being "worthy of survival"), several characters in the show can be described as idealistic and many as heroic, even though many of them were either deluded, or used questionable means to achieve their ends; and even certain characters who can be described as weak, cowardly and selfish showed a capacity for compassion, love and even heroism

No, I've seen every episode of BSG. It's an vain exercise in nihilism. RDM basically took the Joss Whedon angst-just-for-the-sake-of-angst method, turned it up to 11, and put a bunch of Enya music in there. Minus Whedon's wit and humor of course. How anyone could find any character on that show redeemable after 4 years shows a huge cognitive dissonance on their part. Adama's a brutal dictator. So's Roslin. Apollo's a degenerate tool. And Starbuck's just a strait up degenerate. RDM and BSG fans really don't know the difference between flawed and morally bankrupt. The characters on the show are all villains. They just happen to be very well written villains. People like Adama and Roslin are the very types of people real life heroes struggle against. All the real heroes died in the Cylon attack. Only the scumbags lived.

 

[mattyhugh]

I would've signed everything you wrote, if it weren't for the BSG remark. I suspect you've never actually watched BSG or didn't see more than one or two episodes. BSG characters are indeed darker and edgier and more obviously flawed than those on DS9 (or TOS), but none of them, except maybe one or two, were horrible people without any virtues who never tried to make things better or never strived to better themselves, and BSG certainly did not carry a message that the future sucks, that humanity sucks and that one shouldn't bother changing things. (BSG also did not even take place in the future.)Quite the opposite, most of the characters were doing quite fine considering the horrible situation they were in (for which there is nothing comparable in the entire world of Trek), they were fighting and hoping, and since the pilot, the importance hope in all the darkness (Earth, to the Colonial humans, represented hope) was one of the show's most important themes. The question of the bad and the good within humanity was constantly asked throughout the series (Adama's speech about being "worthy of survival"), several characters in the show can be described as idealistic and many as heroic, even though many of them were either deluded, or used questionable means to achieve their ends; and even certain characters who can be described as weak, cowardly and selfish showed a capacity for compassion, love and even heroism

No, I've seen every episode of BSG. It's an vain exercise in nihilism. RDM basically took the Joss Whedon angst-just-for-the-sake-of-angst method, turned it up to 11, and put a bunch of Enya music in there. Minus Whedon's wit and humor of course. How anyone could find any character on that show redeemable after 4 years shows a huge cognitive dissonance on their part. Adama's a brutal dictator. So's Roslin. Apollo's a degenerate tool. And Starbuck's just a strait up degenerate. RDM and BSG fans really don't know the difference between flawed and morally bankrupt. The characters on the show are all villains. They just happen to be very well written villains. People like Adama and Roslin are the very types of people real life heroes struggle against. All the real heroes died in the Cylon attack. Only the scumbags lived.

No silly she's an agent of a higher power.

 

[Anwar]

Ah yes, Moore's usage of Deus ex Machina when all else fails. Was he also the one who thought up the Deus Ex Machina ending for "Sacrifice of Angels"?

 

[Thrall]

Ah yes, Moore's usage of Deus ex Machina when all else fails. Was he also the one who thought up the Deus Ex Machina ending for "Sacrifice of Angels"?

For a guy who despises DS9 as much as you do, it's funny to see you reference it so much.

 

[Anwar]

I don't despise it, I just don't think it's the ultimate. And the attitude DS9 fans give towards all other Trek series gets on my nerves as well.

 

[VDCNI]

With Kira surely she's angry at the beginning of the series because she's just spent most of her life fighting the Cardassians and now her government have just invited the Federation to come in and take control. So it's not hate and bitchiness just for the sake of it but because she has a serious disagreement with Starfleet being there. So the character doesn't really soften overall (though clearly she relaxes now that she's not fighting a civil war anymore!) but her attitude to Sisko & the rest changes as she sees that they are there to do good and that they aren't interested in taking control of Bajor.

As for the main point of the thread - I voted for DS9. TNG will always have a place in my heart as the show that got me into Star Trek but as much as I loved it, DS9 for me is the stronger show.

 

[TheGodBen]

I don't despise it, I just don't think it's the ultimate. And the attitude DS9 fans give towards all other Trek series gets on my nerves as well.

Yeah, Niners are the worst. Not a single one of them will admit to loving TNG and TOS and liking Enterprise, and if they do admit to it then they're just lying as part of their sinister plot to viciously attack those shows. Niners are horrible, horrible people.

 

[Anwar]

No, they like TOS. They'll just have this snobbery about how only TOS and DS9 are "real Trek" and how horrible TNG/VOY/ENT are and how people who enjoy those shows don't know real TV or somesuch .

Well, not all Niners. The more vocal (and annoying) ones though.

 

[TheGodBen]

All is well then.

 

[Thor Damar]

I don't despise it, I just don't think it's the ultimate. And the attitude DS9 fans give towards all other Trek series gets on my nerves as well.

Yeah, Niners are the worst. Not a single one of them will admit to loving TNG and TOS and liking Enterprise, and if they do admit to it then they're just lying as part of their sinister plot to viciously attack those shows. Niners are horrible, horrible people.

Hell yeah we are!

But I do like TNG (when there are Cardassians, Romulans and the early Borg on-screen, also the Q to a lesser extent. And season 3-4 of ENT)

 

[DevilEyes]

I don't despise it, I just don't think it's the ultimate. And the attitude DS9 fans give towards all other Trek series gets on my nerves as well.

Yeah, Niners are the worst. Not a single one of them will admit to loving TNG and TOS and liking Enterprise, and if they do admit to it then they're just lying as part of their sinister plot to viciously attack those shows. Niners are horrible, horrible people.

Hell yeah we are!

But I do like TNG (when there are Cardassians, Romulans and the early Borg on-screen, also the Q to a lesser extent. And season 3-4 of ENT)

I like TNG, and I even love some episodes, but there are, on the other hand, many others I consider just moderately good, and some that more or less annoy me. All in all, I like it, but I cannot say that I love it. But if I didn't like it, I wouldn't have watched it.

It certainly got better since season 3... most of the early episodes, particularly in season 1, are almost unbearable (at least since I grew up.. I did enjoy them when I was 13 and watched them for the first time, since they were entertaining and the actors were pretty ). I enjoy the later seasons for the most part, although holodeck episodes usually annoyed me to no end.

To be fair, I didn't really care for DS9 Mirror episodes and most of the Ferengi ones.

 

[RandyS]

I would've signed everything you wrote, if it weren't for the BSG remark. I suspect you've never actually watched BSG or didn't see more than one or two episodes. BSG characters are indeed darker and edgier and more obviously flawed than those on DS9 (or TOS), but none of them, except maybe one or two, were horrible people without any virtues who never tried to make things better or never strived to better themselves, and BSG certainly did not carry a message that the future sucks, that humanity sucks and that one shouldn't bother changing things. (BSG also did not even take place in the future.)Quite the opposite, most of the characters were doing quite fine considering the horrible situation they were in (for which there is nothing comparable in the entire world of Trek), they were fighting and hoping, and since the pilot, the importance hope in all the darkness (Earth, to the Colonial humans, represented hope) was one of the show's most important themes. The question of the bad and the good within humanity was constantly asked throughout the series (Adama's speech about being "worthy of survival"), several characters in the show can be described as idealistic and many as heroic, even though many of them were either deluded, or used questionable means to achieve their ends; and even certain characters who can be described as weak, cowardly and selfish showed a capacity for compassion, love and even heroism

No, I've seen every episode of BSG. It's an vain exercise in nihilism. RDM basically took the Joss Whedon angst-just-for-the-sake-of-angst method, turned it up to 11, and put a bunch of Enya music in there. Minus Whedon's wit and humor of course. How anyone could find any character on that show redeemable after 4 years shows a huge cognitive dissonance on their part. Adama's a brutal dictator. So's Roslin. Apollo's a degenerate tool. And Starbuck's just a strait up degenerate. RDM and BSG fans really don't know the difference between flawed and morally bankrupt. The characters on the show are all villains. They just happen to be very well written villains. People like Adama and Roslin are the very types of people real life heroes struggle against. All the real heroes died in the Cylon attack. Only the scumbags lived.

Not to derail thread, but I'd like to offer this guy a standing ovation--and a beer. Your take on New Galactica is completely right. This misguided notion that that show was about hope is complete bullshit with a capital B. Hope was the point of the original but not this one. This one was about a bad situation getting worse and never recovering. As you said, angst for angst's sake.

 

[barnaclelapse]

No, they like TOS. They'll just have this snobbery about how only TOS and DS9 are "real Trek" and how horrible TNG/VOY/ENT are and how people who enjoy those shows don't know real TV or somesuch .

Well, not all Niners. The more vocal (and annoying) ones though.

Yeah...I didn't realize how bad that was until I started staffing Anime conventions a few years ago.

I think it's absurd, personally. Both shows rock the ****ing house.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

"This one was about a bad situation getting worse and never recovering."

You know, that sort of thing does happen...