TNG vs DS9 - The Showdown!

[DevilEyes]

Honest to goodness. I've tried to watch DS9. I can't.
Wether it's Kira's "butchiness bitchiness" or Garak's extreme air of superiority (why doesn't someone BEAT THIS GUY TO THE GROUND!!!), there are so many things I hate about this show, that I can sit an watch Enterprise easier than you'll get me to watch a DS9 rerun.

I didn't see anything "butch" about Kira.
As for bitchiness, well, if "bitch" stands for strong, determined, energetic, principled women who are great at their job and don't take crap from anybody then yes, she was a great bitch!

What, in the Pale Moonlight? He gets two punches or so in, and the episode isn't really that much of a milestone.

Yes, it is.

Unless you mean, it wasn't a milestone because DS9 had already in previous episodes shattered the annoying storytelling cliche of black and white ethics, preachiness and Trek captains being constantly morally superior and unblemished and still managing to get things done, complete with delievering the wheel-of morality speech, then, yes, you are right, DS9 managed to deliver intelligent, realistic and challenging storylines much before In the Pale Moonlight - which was just the best example of this.

The only major "flaw" that Niners howl their guts out over for VOY is that the entire crew, with no exceptions, didn't completely fall to pieces over their predicament in the first episode and spend the entire series hating and planning to murder one another.

I realize that you're the boards Number 1 DS9 hater, but that's complete crap. I like the fact that the characters worked together on Voyager. But not the super-happy family who love one another more then life itself by the second episode. I can see the characters working together, sure no problem there. What I can't buy is them acting like they love each other right off the bat. Ok, sure that's an exageration but it's not much of one. By the second season you'd be shocked to learn any of them may have had negative feelings towards one another when their pleasure cruise through the Delta Quadrant started. No conflict means no drama. And lack of drama in a TV show usually leads to boredom. Doesn't mean I want it overdone, like in NuBSG. But a return to TOS-style conflict would have been nice.

As for "going outside the box" for DS9, that's not hard. All they had to do was basically say "The future sucks as much as the present day does, humanity sucks and will never change so you should never bother trying to be anything better than what you are." Like all "dark and edgy" works do these days.

Your're confusing DS9 with NuBSG. The characters in DS9 were no more "dark and edgy" then the characters of TOS were. What DS9 fans want is a return to TOS-style real humans working continuously toward a better future. In TNG humans are idealized versions and near perfection is already there, so there's nothing to work towards. It makes for a dull experience IMO.

I would've signed everything you wrote, if it weren't for the BSG remark. I suspect you've never actually watched BSG or didn't see more than one or two episodes. BSG characters are indeed darker and edgier and more obviously flawed than those on DS9 (or TOS), but none of them, except maybe one or two, were horrible people without any virtues who never tried to make things better or never strived to better themselves, and BSG certainly did not carry a message that the future sucks, that humanity sucks and that one shouldn't bother changing things. (BSG also did not even take place in the future.)Quite the opposite, most of the characters were doing quite fine considering the horrible situation they were in (for which there is nothing comparable in the entire world of Trek), they were fighting and hoping, and since the pilot, the importance hope in all the darkness (Earth, to the Colonial humans, represented hope) was one of the show's most important themes. The question of the bad and the good within humanity was constantly asked throughout the series (Adama's speech about being "worthy of survival"), several characters in the show can be described as idealistic and many as heroic, even though many of them were either deluded, or used questionable means to achieve their ends; and even certain characters who can be described as weak, cowardly and selfish showed a capacity for compassion, love and even heroism.

 

[mattyhugh]

Not to go too off topic here. But the point was made that 'dark and edgy' sells in the current zeitgeist. Most people assume the poster child is The Dark Knight. However TDK had a very Trekean twist on the ferries. So at any rate, I don' t think you should lump Deep Space which was a product of a different time to what you think sells today.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

I like both shows equally. Each gives me something that the other doesn't.

With DS9 we get all kinds of new insights into the Trek universe, an amazing cast of supporting characters and a great ongoing story. DS9 requires you to remember more, and I think you have to put more of yourself into watching the show and appreciating the small touches.

With TNG we get a great main cast, more iconic characters (I'm not really sure why I feel that way. Maybe because I was a kid when it started? I dunno.. for some reason when I think Star Trek the first things that pop into my mind are Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Picard and Data) and great self contained episodes. I like that you can watch any TNG episode in any order and it still makes sense.

When I've been watching one series for awhile, I find it incredibly refreshing to switch to the other.

Actually if you're a comic book fan you might get this... I see DS9 as Marvel and TNG as DC. Both great, just different.

 

[Cyke101]

Anwar, I honestly think that you're lumping Voyager haters into one singular category (rather unfairly) and then on top of that, bashing DS9 fans for the very same reason you accuse Voyager haters of being jerks (again, rather unfairly).

 

[Too Much Fun]

I find it rather ironic that people are calling the TNG characters 'too perfect' and not conflicted enough compared to the DS9 characters, and then giving Garak as an example of a character who is better than them. I feel the opposite. I like Garak, but something that annoys me about him is I think he is almost too perfect. He's so smart, talented, dangerous, and creative, and he's always talking about how great he is. I find him a hell of a lot more 'perfect' than people like Data, Worf, and even Picard on TNG who have a lot of psychological issues and doubts about themselves in comparison.

 

[Anwar]

I'm sorry, but I would be remiss if I was to not point out how horribly intolerant your attitude is. Honestly, you sicken me with those words.

That's okay, I'm sickened by the depth of hatred that exists in VOY haters (I'm also a defender of Alien 3 and Beast Machines, so I am fully familiar with how bad haters get) and how intolerant they are of the idea that maybe not everyone wanted the show to be an unrelenting mess of darkness and misery with no hope to it.

I am an individual and I will not be dismissed as "just like all the rest" just because you have had bad experiences in the past. Guess what, we all have bad experiences with different sorts of people, I have had some particularly nasty experiences with Christians but I don't lump them all into one group and dismiss them all. Some Christians are good, some Christians are assholes, the important thing to remember is that every single person is different and should not be judged by how they label themselves.

I've had plenty of bad experiences with Christians as well (I'm not Christian) who mock me and my own faith and beliefs, but I have met several who are much more willing to be open-minded and accepting of the different. I've yet to encounter a single VOY hater in 14 years who didn't spout off the same garbage over and over and over, never lessened the hate or the utter loathing they have for the show and every element in it. And don't reply with some "that's because you refuse to see them!" nonsense.

That's what IDIC is all about, by the way.

Tell that to the VOY haters.

How do you think it makes me feel to be judged based on the actions of other people?! I don't dislike you because you like Voyager, I like plenty of people on this board who are fans of the show. I dislike you because your attitude is very obnoxious and you are very closed-minded, and for how you have treated me in this thread. If you want to dislike me for similar reasons then feel free, but don't you dare claim that you can judge me based on the actions of people who are not me!

First, your actions ARE similar enough to theirs that my attitude is fully justified, and secondly you've never done anything to show that your actions AREN'T just like theirs.

You are as bad as the extremist Voyager haters in that regard.

So you admit there ARE extremist VOY haters, just like the ones I described who set out to hate the show before it began? Good.

Which should prove to you right away that the biggest problem most people have with Voyager was its lack of continuity and not the BS you've been talking about. Is the commbadge comment a minor thing? Yes, I agree that it is and that's why I didn't detract any points from the episode for such a flippant line.

All that proves is how VOY haters ignore the problems of TOS and DS9 but are willing to tear into every last detail they don't like about the shows they do hate (TNG/VOY/ENT). It has nothing to do with lack of continuity, if they HAD had the commbadge twitch be someone Janeway always did the complaint would just be "it's a stupid characteristic they invented for her character and I hate everytime it's shown".

 

[TheGodBen]

I don't buy into the idea that TNG's characters were "too perfect" either. In the early seasons they certainly had a sense of smug superiority about them (just think of how they talked about the Ferengi in The Last Outpost) but from season 3 on they're pretty good. Picard's overly stiff, Worf is too aggressive, Geordi has his social issues and Riker supposedly has stinknuts.

I prefer DS9's characters because I think they had a more interesting dynamic, no friendship on TNG can match the Bashir/O'Brien friendship in my mind, and I liked how Sisko had to earn the respect of Kira, Odo and Quark rather than the unconditional admiration everyone seemed to have for Picard at the beginning of TNG just because he was the captain. But I still love TNG and the characters on that show and I must agree that Picard and Data are more iconic than anyone on DS9.

 

[TheGodBen]

Round 4.

That's okay, I'm sickened by the depth of hatred that exists in VOY haters (I'm also a defender of Alien 3 and Beast Machines, so I am fully familiar with how bad haters get) and how intolerant they are of the idea that maybe not everyone wanted the show to be an unrelenting mess of darkness and misery with no hope to it.

If you had actually bothered to read my "hater" thread then you would see that I have said a half-dozen times that I never wanted Voyager to be anywhere near as dark a show as nuBSG (which I love) because Star Trek should never go that far. I wanted Voyager to have better continuity, more consequences, story-arcs and more recurring characters and maybe a little heavier in tone. I didn't want the ship to have a limitless supply of torpedoes and shuttles or holodecks running 24/7. That's all.

I've had plenty of bad experiences with Christians as well (I'm not Christian) who mock me and my own faith and beliefs, but I have met several who are much more willing to be open-minded and accepting of the different. I've yet to encounter a single VOY hater in 14 years who didn't spout off the same garbage over and over and over, never lessened the hate or the utter loathing they have for the show and every element in it. And don't reply with some "that's because you refuse to see them!" nonsense.

I honestly have no other explanation for how you don't see the moderate Voyager "haters" other than that you refuse to see them because I see them all the time. And I've only been here for 6 months, so either I'm really lucky or you're wilfully ignorant.

Here's my position on Voyager: In general I don't like it because I feel the show failed to live up to its premise, but my rewatch has improved my impression of the show slightly. So far (I'm in late season 5) the show has slightly better continuity and a better ensemble feel than I remembered from previously watching the show. It is still far from being my favourite and I still think it was a below average show but depending upon my rewatch of Enterprise (which I will begin after finishing Voyager) it may no longer be my least favourite of the Trek series.

I'm raving mad, I know.

First, your actions ARE similar enough to theirs that my attitude is fully justified, and secondly you've never done anything to show that your actions AREN'T just like theirs.

By realising that I may be wrong and deciding to give the show a fair chance I have proven that I'm the same as the people who "spout off the same garbage over and over and over, never lessened the hate or the utter loathing they have for the show and every element in it"? Yeah, I'm a complete dick, I don't know how people can stand me.

So you admit there ARE extremist VOY haters, just like the ones I described who set out to hate the show before it began? Good.

Of course there are, I never denied that there are extremists I just said that not all people who dislike Voyager are raving loonies. Are you willing to admit that?

All that proves is how VOY haters ignore the problems of TOS and DS9 but are willing to tear into every last detail they don't like about the shows they do hate (TNG/VOY/ENT). It has nothing to do with lack of continuity, if they HAD had the commbadge twitch be someone Janeway always did the complaint would just be "it's a stupid characteristic they invented for her character and I hate everytime it's shown".

I don't ignore the problems of DS9 or TOS and I intend to prove that when I do a similar rewatch thread about DS9 in the future. For the most part I am a fair and reasonable person, but you wouldn't know that because you jumped to a conclusion about me because I labelled myself as a "hater".

 

[Anwar]

If you had actually bothered to read my "hater" thread then you would see that I have said a half-dozen times that I never wanted Voyager to be anywhere near as dark a show as nuBSG (which I love) because Star Trek should never go that far. I wanted Voyager to have better continuity, more consequences, story-arcs and more recurring characters and maybe a little heavier in tone. I didn't want the ship to have a limitless supply of torpedoes and shuttles or holodecks running 24/7. That's all.

Please, the only reason VOY haters (and TNG-haters, and ENT haters) aren't jumping up and down over how NuBSG is everything those shows should've been is because of how terribly it ended and how it turned out Moore was hardly the Godsend they thought he was. It's all about the prestige and now that theirs isn't quite as good they're getting off the high horse. They're just backtracking now from their prior positions of looking down on TNG/VOY/ENT fans. Even if VOY had been serialized, had recurring characters and the like you'd have still hated it.

I honestly have no other explanation for how you don't see the moderate Voyager "haters" other than that you refuse to see them because I see them all the time. And I've only been here for 6 months, so either I'm really lucky or you're wilfully ignorant.

Or you don't understand what a "moderate" VOY hater really is, because those ones you see can't be them.

Here's my position on Voyager: In general I don't like it because I feel the show failed to live up to its premise, but my rewatch has improved my impression of the show slightly. So far (I'm in late season 5) the show has slightly better continuity and a better ensemble feel than I remembered from previously watching the show. It is still far from being my favourite and I still think it was a below average show but depending upon my rewatch of Enterprise (which I will begin after finishing Voyager) it may no longer be my least favourite of the Trek series.

Great, so you'll just go on to become a ENT hater (even moreso) in a little while.

By realising that I may be wrong and deciding to give the show a fair chance I have proven that I'm the same as the people who "spout off the same garbage over and over and over, never lessened the hate or the utter loathing they have for the show and every element in it"? Yeah, I'm a complete dick, I don't know how people can stand me.

All you did was say that you hadn't watched the show in 10 years and decided to give it another go to see if it really was what you remembered. In other words, you're just going to speak out as and adult over how much you hated it now. Just like I said.

Of course there are, I never denied that there are extremists I just said that not all people who dislike Voyager are raving loonies. Are you willing to admit that?

When I meet one that isn't a "NuBSG OWENNZZZZ YURRR SOULZZZZ" type, which may be next to never.

I don't ignore the problems of DS9 or TOS and I intend to prove that when I do a similar rewatch thread about DS9 in the future. For the most part I am a fair and reasonable person, but you wouldn't know that because you jumped to a conclusion about me because I labelled myself as a "hater".

Right, I'll start the betting pot for how every single episode of DS9 you review will end up with a score of 7/10 or higher. Of course, this will be after you end up labeling VOY and ENT less than 4/10 as a whole.

 

[Too Much Fun]

With TNG we get a great main cast, more iconic characters (I'm not really sure why I feel that way. Maybe because I was a kid when it started? I dunno.. for some reason when I think Star Trek the first things that pop into my mind are Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Picard and Data) and great self contained episodes. I like that you can watch any TNG episode in any order and it still makes sense.

My sentiments exactly. This is one reason I'm not a completist with collecting Star Trek figures - I'm happy to have Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Picard, and Data, but not their whole crews, as I think they best represent Star Trek as a whole (but I also have episode-specific Khan and Jadzia Dax figures, because of how much I love those characters and "Trials and Tribble-Ations" and "Space Seed").

One unfortunate disadvantage of DS9's serialization is that if there's an ongoing story arc that you don't like, you're stuck with it until it's resolved (which is why for me the greatness in the final chapter is being dragged down by the Dukat and Winn stuff) and although I started getting into DS9 and "Star Trek" at the same time, I think of the TNG and "Star Trek" characters as equally iconic, while I think of my favourite DS9 characters as cool, but not quite icons.

 

[TheGodBen]

blah blah blah

We've derailed this thread enough, I'm taking this to PM.

 

[Stardate]

No question TNG. It felt more Star Trek than DS9 in my opinion. TNG was closer too Gene Roddenberry vision than DS9.

 

[RobertScorpio]

No question TNG. It felt more Star Trek than DS9 in my opinion. TNG was closer too Gene Roddenberry vision than DS9.

..and thats the problem I have with TNG-VOY-ENTERPRISE. You could interchange those stories/crews and it wouldn't have made much of a difference. All they did was mimic TOS, perhaps better at times, but still..it wasnt that original.

DS9 was the most original TREK since TOS. And that is why, to me, it wins this hands down.

Rob

 

[GalaxyX]

Sisko does in the greatest episode of Star Trek ever.

"Where no one has gone before?" lol
but seriously, which one? In the pale moonlight? I saw the episode. I liked it. I don't remember Garak getting the beats in that one. I admit I only saw it once, and the only thing I liked is how the Romulans got suckered into the war.

Please, VOY haters wanted the entire cast replaced, for them to all be strung out or drug addicts of some sort, abandon their morals and ideals entirely by the 3rd episode in and go around stealing and ravaging from every inhabited world they encountered because it's "better drama".

I Agree.

Anyway, that air of superiority Garak has is entirely justified, being a member of the greatest species in the Galaxy.

Why? for being the most arrogant assholes of the galaxy?

I was there when VOY first aired 14 years ago, and I can safely say that most if not all hateful opinions of the show haven't lessened since then. Heck, I even remember how the show was getting bashed 1/3 through the first season and how the fandom wasn't happy that the older races from prior shows weren't going to be in it

I remember DS9 and Voyager used to air at the exact same time on different channels back then. Guess which one I would sit and watch? It wasn't DS9.

Grossly over-generalizing? Why, because I'm one of the only ones not totally addicted to "dark and edgy" works like everyone else is? That I can enjoy characters and setting that aren't totally bleak and hopeless? If that's "Grossly overgeneralizing" than I gladly admit to it.

You're not the only one.

GalaxyX wanted to see Garak beaten to the ground, if I'm not mistaken Sisko does exactly that.

Hmm, may be worth rewatching the episode for that.

Everything you love is wrong and stupid!
And you're adopted!

LMAO!!!

I didn't see anything "butch" about Kira.
As for bitchiness, well, if "bitch" stands for strong, determined, energetic, principled women who are great at their job and don't take crap from anybody then yes, she was a great bitch!

Tasha Yar was better at being the "strong female with past" without resorting to man hating.

then, yes, you are right, DS9 managed to deliver intelligent, realistic and challenging storylines much before In the Pale Moonlight - which was just the best example of this.

All DS9 did is stoop down to the level that every show is at now.

I find it rather ironic that people are calling the TNG characters 'too perfect' and not conflicted enough compared to the DS9 characters, and then giving Garak as an example of a character who is better than them. I feel the opposite. I like Garak, but something that annoys me about him is I think he is almost too perfect. He's so smart, talented, dangerous, and creative, and he's always talking about how great he is. I find him a hell of a lot more 'perfect' than people like Data, Worf, and even Picard on TNG who have a lot of psychological issues and doubts about themselves in comparison.

Never thought about it that way. I just thought Garak was a smug asshole that desperately needed some beatings.

 

[DevilEyes]

I find it rather ironic that people are calling the TNG characters 'too perfect' and not conflicted enough compared to the DS9 characters, and then giving Garak as an example of a character who is better than them. I feel the opposite. I like Garak, but something that annoys me about him is I think he is almost too perfect. He's so smart, talented, dangerous, and creative, and he's always talking about how great he is. I find him a hell of a lot more 'perfect' than people like Data, Worf, and even Picard on TNG who have a lot of psychological issues and doubts about themselves in comparison.

'Perfect' is the wrong word. They were not 'perfect'; they were too nice, too wholesome, too politically correct, they weren't morally ambiguous, got along too well, there was hardly ever any serious conflict between them. Imagine McCoy on Picard's Enterprise (for longer than a guest stint of couple of minutes, that is). He's either have to have lots of discrimination suits filed against him, or more likely, he'd have to spend all his time in therapy with Troi. Spock is another one that would need lots of therapy (a half-human constnatly saying disparaging remarks about humans? Talk about delusions and self-loathing!), but I'm not sure how much he'd appreciate Troi talking to him about sensing his feelings.

BTW Garak had claustrophobia, daddy issues, home country issues, allegiance issues, do-I-want-to-get-back-to-Obsidian-order? issues and what not.
Plus, a guy who replies "I never understood why" when being told that a girl was in love with him, doesn't exactly seem to be someone who thinks he's perfect and great in every way.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Sisko does in the greatest episode of Star Trek ever.

"Where no one has gone before?" lol
but seriously, which one? In the pale moonlight? I saw the episode. I liked it. I don't remember Garak getting the beats in that one. I admit I only saw it once, and the only thing I liked is how the Romulans got suckered into the war.

Please, VOY haters wanted the entire cast replaced, for them to all be strung out or drug addicts of some sort, abandon their morals and ideals entirely by the 3rd episode in and go around stealing and ravaging from every inhabited world they encountered because it's "better drama".

I Agree.

Why? for being the most arrogant assholes of the galaxy?

I remember DS9 and Voyager used to air at the exact same time on different channels back then. Guess which one I would sit and watch? It wasn't DS9.

You're not the only one.

Hmm, may be worth rewatching the episode for that.

LMAO!!!

Tasha Yar was better at being the "strong female with past" without resorting to man hating.

then, yes, you are right, DS9 managed to deliver intelligent, realistic and challenging storylines much before In the Pale Moonlight - which was just the best example of this.

All DS9 did is stoop down to the level that every show is at now.

I find it rather ironic that people are calling the TNG characters 'too perfect' and not conflicted enough compared to the DS9 characters, and then giving Garak as an example of a character who is better than them. I feel the opposite. I like Garak, but something that annoys me about him is I think he is almost too perfect. He's so smart, talented, dangerous, and creative, and he's always talking about how great he is. I find him a hell of a lot more 'perfect' than people like Data, Worf, and even Picard on TNG who have a lot of psychological issues and doubts about themselves in comparison.

Never thought about it that way. I just thought Garak was a smug asshole that desperately needed some beatings.

This is a very interesting read. But whom ever it is defending VOYAGER? I too was around when that show started. And I was there when it became TNG-lite with cheaper actors. DS9 is the better show. Where as VOYAGER followed in the LONG shadow of TOS/TNG, DS9 strived to be something different.

And....what it all comes down to? The DEFIANT would utterly crush that spoon-shaped legos inspired Intrep-class ship..

Rob

 

[DevilEyes]

I remember DS9 and Voyager used to air at the exact same time on different channels back then. Guess which one I would sit and watch? It wasn't DS9.

And you're bragging about it?

Tasha Yar was better at being the "strong female with past" without resorting to man hating.

Tasha Yar?! Seriously? I thought she was just a rather lame and unsuccessful attempt to produce a "strong female character". I can't even think of anything interesting about her.

Man-hating? Which men did Kira hate, apart from Cardassian war criminals?

then, yes, you are right, DS9 managed to deliver intelligent, realistic and challenging storylines much before In the Pale Moonlight - which was just the best example of this.

All DS9 did is stoop down to the level that every show is at now.

Stoop down? From what/where?

 

[Praetor]

Man, I'm not sure. If the question was "which is better?" I'd vote DS9, easily. But since the question is "which do you prefer?" I'm not sure. I like TNG for more sentimental reasons, and tend to enjoy rewatching it more, flaws and all. But I think DS9 had better arcs and better characters and was just generally of higher quality. Or, shall I say, more fully-realized potential.

I may have to give this some thought before casting my vote.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Man, I'm not sure. If the question was "which is better?" I'd vote DS9, easily. But since the question is "which do you prefer?" I'm not sure. I like TNG for more sentimental reasons, and tend to enjoy rewatching it more, flaws and all. But I think DS9 had better arcs and better characters and was just generally of higher quality. Or, shall I say, more fully-realized potential.

I may have to give this some thought before casting my vote.

I'll give you fifty bucks if you vote for DS9!

Rob

 

[DevilEyes]

Man, I'm not sure. If the question was "which is better?" I'd vote DS9, easily. But since the question is "which do you prefer?" I'm not sure. I like TNG for more sentimental reasons, and tend to enjoy rewatching it more, flaws and all. But I think DS9 had better arcs and better characters and was just generally of higher quality. Or, shall I say, more fully-realized potential.

I may have to give this some thought before casting my vote.

I'll give you fifty bucks if you vote for DS9!

Rob

Don't bother, look at the results, it's already wiping the floor with TNG.