TNG vs DS9 - The Showdown!

[Anwar]

Did TNG even have a lot of secondary characters to develop in the first place, I mean aside from Barclay? I can understand why TNG didn't try that (they were trying to get the show established in the first 3 seasons and revitalize Trek as a TV franchise and thus would've spent time focusing only on the main cast. By the time it was a hit they'd spent to much time on the main cast they figured there was no point in doing lots of secondary character stuff), whereas DS9 could fallback on TNG's success and thus make more secondary characters for more usage.

VOY and ENT were basically made to make money, much to the staff's annoyance, and thus UPN wouldn't have let them make lots of secondary characters for developmental use (it would cost more).

But I'm afraid I'll never agree with the "DS9 is just inherently better" crowd, mainly because...well DS9 wasn't that much better (hey, if they can say "DS9 is just better" I can say this). It may fit better with the more serial nature of shows and darker nature that exists today, but that still doesn't make it the ultimate.

 

[mattyhugh]

Did TNG even have a lot of secondary characters to develop in the first place, I mean aside from Barclay? I can understand why TNG didn't try that (they were trying to get the show established in the first 3 seasons and revitalize Trek as a TV franchise and thus would've spent time focusing only on the main cast. By the time it was a hit they'd spent to much time on the main cast they figured there was no point in doing lots of secondary character stuff), whereas DS9 could fallback on TNG's success and thus make more secondary characters for more usage.

VOY and ENT were basically made to make money, much to the staff's annoyance, and thus UPN wouldn't have let them make lots of secondary characters for developmental use (it would cost more).

But I'm afraid I'll never agree with the "DS9 is just inherently better" crowd, mainly because...well DS9 wasn't that much better (hey, if they can say "DS9 is just better" I can say this). It may fit better with the more serial nature of shows and darker nature that exists today, but that still doesn't make it the ultimate.

How about this. Deep Space Nine was as out of the Roddenberry box as you could be, and the few weaknesses of TNG are exaggerated by Niners because of some of the flaws of VOY.

 

[Anwar]

The only major "flaw" that Niners howl their guts out over for VOY is that the entire crew, with no exceptions, didn't completely fall to pieces over their predicament in the first episode and spend the entire series hating and planning to murder one another.

As for "going outside the box" for DS9, that's not hard. All they had to do was basically say "The future sucks as much as the present day does, humanity sucks and will never change so you should never bother trying to be anything better than what you are." Like all "dark and edgy" works do these days.

 

[Thrall]

The only major "flaw" that Niners howl their guts out over for VOY is that the entire crew, with no exceptions, didn't completely fall to pieces over their predicament in the first episode and spend the entire series hating and planning to murder one another.

I realize that you're the boards Number 1 DS9 hater, but that's complete crap. I like the fact that the characters worked together on Voyager. But not the super-happy family who love one another more then life itself by the second episode. I can see the characters working together, sure no problem there. What I can't buy is them acting like they love each other right off the bat. Ok, sure that's an exageration but it's not much of one. By the second season you'd be shocked to learn any of them may have had negative feelings towards one another when their pleasure cruise through the Delta Quadrant started. No conflict means no drama. And lack of drama in a TV show usually leads to boredom. Doesn't mean I want it overdone, like in NuBSG. But a return to TOS-style conflict would have been nice.

As for "going outside the box" for DS9, that's not hard. All they had to do was basically say "The future sucks as much as the present day does, humanity sucks and will never change so you should never bother trying to be anything better than what you are." Like all "dark and edgy" works do these days.

Your're confusing DS9 with NuBSG. The characters in DS9 were no more "dark and edgy" then the characters of TOS were. What DS9 fans want is a return to TOS-style real humans working continuously toward a better future. In TNG humans are idealized versions and near perfection is already there, so there's nothing to work towards. It makes for a dull experience IMO.

 

[Destructor]

TNG will always hold a special place in my heart, but DS9 was better, for sure.

 

[GalaxyX]

I side with TNG, I watched all of DS9 from the time it began so I'm well-versed enough in it. I know we can all go on about how "dark" it was and how because it had a continuing story it was "deeper" and all that but frankly it wasn't that dark nor did the continuing nature make it that much more sophisticated. TNG was just as sophisticated but fanboys have chosen to Flanderize it's more Utopian elements and spout out nonsense about how TNG was a sterile place with no real character interaction or how the characters were bad for not deeply hating one another. It almost gets to the level of nonsense you get from Warsies when it comes to the Federation.
That said, DS9 is still a fave for me but TNG will still rank higher.

Honest to goodness. I've tried to watch DS9. I can't.
Wether it's Kira's "butchiness bitchiness" or Garak's extreme air of superiority (why doesn't someone BEAT THIS GUY TO THE GROUND!!!), there are so many things I hate about this show, that I can sit an watch Enterprise easier than you'll get me to watch a DS9 rerun.
So I agree with you 110%

The only major "flaw" that Niners howl their guts out over for VOY is that the entire crew, with no exceptions, didn't completely fall to pieces over their predicament in the first episode and spend the entire series hating and planning to murder one another.
As for "going outside the box" for DS9, that's not hard. All they had to do was basically say "The future sucks as much as the present day does, humanity sucks and will never change so you should never bother trying to be anything better than what you are." Like all "dark and edgy" works do these days.

LOL!! All true!!

I realize that you're the boards 1# DS9 hater, but that's complete crap. I like the fact that the characters worked together on Voyager. But not the super-happy family who love one another more then life itself by the second episode. I can see the characters working together, sure no problem there. What I can't buy is them acting like they love each other right off the bat. Ok, sure that's an exageration but it's not much of one. By the second season you'd be shocked to learn any of them may have had negative feelings towards one another when their pleasure cruise through the Delta Quadrant started. No conflict means no drama. And lack of drama in a TV usually leads to bordem. Doesn't mean I want it overdone, like in NuBSG. But a return to TOS-style conflict would have been nice.

I don't think it was necessary for the main characters to be at each other's throats all the time. Just look at the episode "Year of Hell". If they had done the entire series like that it would have been quite fun to watch, without need for main characters to tear their throats out.

 

[Too Much Fun]

Some weird things being said here about Voyager. For the record, I am a DS9 fan who doesn't like that show not for any reasons stated here. My main beef with it is simply that I find all the characters and episodes boring (except the Q episodes). "Year of Hell" was especially painful for me. Couldn't understand what the hell was going on and cared even less.

 

[TheGodBen]

The only major "flaw" that Niners howl their guts out over for VOY is that the entire crew, with no exceptions, didn't completely fall to pieces over their predicament in the first episode and spend the entire series hating and planning to murder one another.

No, just no.

You seem to spend a lot of time on the Voyager forum so I'm sure you've seen my "hater revisits" thread but I'm not sure if you bothered to read any of it. If you did you'd see that there's a good bunch of people, many of whom are Niners, who are critiquing the show on an episode by episode basis and pointing out what we see as Voyager's biggest flaws. Even many Voyager fans join in and agree with some of the things I criticise the show for. What is the biggest complaint most of us have about Voyager?

Lack of continuity.

Most people like the characters, the only ones I think should have been darker are Neelix, who should have been more of a mercenary rather than a clown, and Chakotay, who was more of a gentle Indian than a guerilla leader. But from season 3 on there was little inter-episode continuity and there was very few consequences for what was happening on screen, which is why after Dark Frontier they had lost 13 shuttles and used 48 of 38 torpedoes.

Would I have liked a bit more internal conflict rather than forced external conflicts? Sure, but that's not my biggest complaint and it is not the biggest complaint of most of the "haters". Don't believe me? Then read all 99 pages of the thread, the evidence is right there if you're willing to look for it and if you're not willing then stop throwing up strawmen.

...or Garak's extreme air of superiority (why doesn't someone BEAT THIS GUY TO THE GROUND!!!)

Sisko does in the greatest episode of Star Trek ever.

 

[Anwar]

No, just no.

Yes, actually, yes.

You seem to spend a lot of time on the Voyager forum so I'm sure you've seen my "hater revisits" thread but I'm not sure if you bothered to read any of it. If you did you'd see that there's a good bunch of people, many of whom are Niners, who are critiquing the show on an episode by episode basis and pointing out what we see as Voyager's biggest flaws. Even many Voyager fans join in and agree with some of the things I criticise the show for. What is the biggest complaint most of us have about Voyager?

I'm not going to waste my time reading a post whose heading is as blatantly biased as "A hater revisits Voyager", once a hater always a hater.

Most people like the characters, the only ones I think should have been darker are Neelix, who should have been more of a mercenary rather than a clown, and Chakotay, who was more of a gentle Indian than a guerilla leader.

Please, VOY haters wanted the entire cast replaced, for them to all be strung out or drug addicts of some sort, abandon their morals and ideals entirely by the 3rd episode in and go around stealing and ravaging from every inhabited world they encountered because it's "better drama".

Would I have liked a bit more internal conflict rather than forced external conflicts? Sure, but that's not my biggest complaint and it is not the biggest complaint of most of the "haters". Don't believe me? Then read all 99 pages of the thread, the evidence is right there if you're willing to look for it and if you're not willing then stop throwing up strawmen.

Like I said, once a hater always a hater. If I did read the thread it'd just be the same anti-VOY strawmen in return over how the show could've easily "so much better" by basically saying FU to all of Trek.

Sisko does in the greatest episode of Star Trek ever.

What, in the Pale Moonlight? He gets two punches or so in, and the episode isn't really that much of a milestone.

 

[apenpaap]

Yes, actually, yes. I'm not going to waste my time reading a post whose heading is as blatantly biased as "A hater revisits Voyager", once a hater always a hater.

Why couldn't someone change his opinion? Read GodBen's thread, and you'll notice that he has admitted on multiple occasions that the show isn't nearly as bad as het thought. GodBen is willing to give VOY another chance, can't you give him another chance?

Please, VOY haters wanted the entire cast replaced, for them to all be strung out or drug addicts of some sort, abandon their morals and ideals entirely by the 3rd episode in and go around stealing and ravaging from every inhabited world they encountered because it's "better drama".

I've never heard any hater who wanted that. Actually, most of them I hear say they like the characters, but not the stories. Anyway, you are grossly overgeneralizing.

]Like I said, once a hater always a hater. If I did read the thread it'd just be the same anti-VOY strawmen in return over how the show could've easily "so much better" by basically saying FU to all of Trek.

How do you know? You haven't read it. And I can tell you (having read it), that you are largely wrong.

What, in the Pale Moonlight? He gets two punches or so in, and the episode isn't really that much of a milestone.

A bunch of Klingons also beat him up in "The Way of the Warrior".
<>Anyway, that air of superiority Garak has is entirely justified, being a member of the greatest species in the Galaxy.</>

 

[Anwar]

I was there when VOY first aired 14 years ago, and I can safely say that most if not all hateful opinions of the show haven't lessened since then. Heck, I even remember how the show was getting bashed 1/3 through the first season and how the fandom wasn't happy that the older races from prior shows weren't going to be in it (and this was before they even got around to really introducing most of the other races exclusive to VOY) thus refusing to give any of VOY's races a chance. This still happens today, the haters NEVER change, not ever.

Grossly over-generalizing? Why, because I'm one of the only ones not totally addicted to "dark and edgy" works like everyone else is? That I can enjoy characters and setting that aren't totally bleak and hopeless? If that's "Grossly overgeneralizing" than I gladly admit to it.

I have 14 years of haters backing me up, I started glancing through the thread and I can say it isn't any different. Silly nonsense like "They said that Janeway twitches her commbagge when she's thinking of something when that never happened before! THIS IS THE WORST EVAAARRRR!" is still around as much as it used to be.

 

[TheGodBen]

No, just no.

Yes, actually, yes.

No, actually, no. See, I can do that too.

I'm not going to waste my time reading a post whose heading is as blatantly biased as "A hater revisits Voyager", once a hater always a hater.

This is your problem, you judge a book by its cover rather than the actual contents. If you actually bothered to read the second paragraph of the freakin' thread:

But it has been a long time since I've seen Voyager, in fact it has been over a decade since I saw most of the episodes and when I saw them I would have been in my teens. I realise that my criticisms of Voyager may be unfairly filtered through the eyes of an adolescent, so I have decided to go back and watch Voyager through from beginning to end.

As for my ratings of each episode, most of them have been fair and so far Voyager has only a very slightly below average score: 4.914/10. If I just wanted to insult Voyager then it's score would be in the 2-3 region but that's not what I'm trying to do.

I can't stop you from judging me without knowing anything about me, but I will ask you to stop because it's not fair on me and it doesn't show you in a positive light.

Please, VOY haters wanted the entire cast replaced, for them to all be strung out or drug addicts of some sort, abandon their morals and ideals entirely by the 3rd episode in and go around stealing and ravaging from every inhabited world they encountered because it's "better drama".

All DS9 haters are paedophiles and the reason why they don't like the show is because Ben Sisko didn't molest Jake at any point during seven seasons.

I can also make up shit that has no grounding in reality, but I generally don't because I don't need to lie to back up my biased opinion.

Like I said, once a hater always a hater. If I did read the thread it'd just be the same anti-VOY strawmen in return over how the show could've easily "so much better" by basically saying FU to all of Trek.

Why don't you read the thread to find out? I just posted a review of The Disease and gave it a fairer review than most I've seen for that episode so I honestly don't think I'm biased against the show. And as I've said, most of the people posting in the thread are not Voyager haters but are fans themselves. You don't agree with my opinion of an episode? There will be five more posted after mine that you might agree with.

What, in the Pale Moonlight? He gets two punches or so in, and the episode isn't really that much of a milestone.

GalaxyX wanted to see Garak beaten to the ground, if I'm not mistaken Sisko does exactly that.

 

[Anwar]

This is your problem, you judge a book by its cover rather than the actual contents. If you actually bothered to read the second paragraph of the freakin' thread:

But it has been a long time since I've seen Voyager, in fact it has been over a decade since I saw most of the episodes and when I saw them I would have been in my teens. I realise that my criticisms of Voyager may be unfairly filtered through the eyes of an adolescent, so I have decided to go back and watch Voyager through from beginning to end.

All that means is that since you realized you "may have been unfair" you're just going to go through the series and point out how much you hated it all over again. I've been putting up with this for 14 years and nothing has changed from any of the haters. I've been reading the same book for all that time so I know very well the contents.

As for my ratings of each episode, most of them have been fair and so far Voyager has only a very slightly below average score: 4.914/10. If I just wanted to insult Voyager then it's score would be in the 2-3 region but that's not what I'm trying to do.

I can't stop you from judging me without knowing anything about me, but I will ask you to stop because it's not fair on me and it doesn't show you in a positive light.

You think I care what VOY haters think of me? They hold anyone who likes VOY and ENT (and TNG too) in utter contempt anyways.

All DS9 haters are paedophiles and the reason why they don't like the show is because Ben Sisko didn't molest Jake at any point during seven seasons.

I can also make up shit that has no grounding in reality, but I generally don't because I don't need to lie to back up my biased opinion.

I'm not making up anything, go around and ask and you'll see that VOY haters will agree that "The series should have been exactly like Equinox", in other words there should've been no likable characters, they should have been doing totally unethical and morally reprehensible stuff 100% of the time (not even having them slowly abandont heir ideals, because Trek ideals are so worthless they don't even deserve to be slowly discarded, just discarded on the spot) and at the end of the series they should have gotten away with everything and not suffer any bad consequences for their actions because it's good to be immoral manipulative barbarians.

Why don't you read the thread to find out? I just posted a review of The Disease and gave it a fairer review than most I've seen for that episode so I honestly don't think I'm biased against the show. And as I've said, most of the people posting in the thread are not Voyager haters but are fans themselves. You don't agree with my opinion of an episode? There will be five more posted after mine that you might agree with.

I was reading the tail end of the thread and stopped when I saw how some folks were getting into a tizzy over something as dumb as "Janeway is supposed to twitch he commbadge when she thinks of something devious but it's never happened before!". Haters are still haters.

GalaxyX wanted to see Garak beaten to the ground, if I'm not mistaken Sisko does exactly that.

No, he just slugs him twice.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Like them both, but DS9's characters are better. Pretty much all of TNG's recurring characters weren't half as good as Garak.

Totally agree with this...TNG, for me, just doesn't age well. Where as because DS9 had so many layers, and better recurring characters, it just seems to age like fine wine...

Was it perfect? No. But it was, IMO, the best of the modern Treks (or what we call BERMAN era)

Rob
Scorpio

 

[Anwar]

Well, at least you were nice enough to use the IMO. Lots don't even do that.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Well, at least you were nice enough to use the IMO. Lots don't even do that.

I have to admit, I used to not do the IMO. But I understand that all treks have fans. We all, admit it, like some aspect of Trek that the bulk of the TREK fans don't.

I, for example, love THE FINAL FRONTIER. I think it is a good movie. But then I can't stand Nemesis. But I appreciate that those fans of Nemesis, like us fans of TFF, are a unique brand of fan.

Rob
Scorpio

 

[DevilEyes]

Definitely DS9, my favourite Trek. TNG was the first Trek I saw, but DS9 was the one that got me into Trek. I could name the reasons why, but I'd just be reiterating what others have already said.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

One point about the recurring characters: The recurring characters on TNG were actually great. I'm thinking especially of the Starfleet ones - there was a reason that O'Brien got to be a regular on DS9, that they kept trying to insert Ro into every new show they made and that Barclay kept appearing in Voyager. Those characters were more interesting than some of the regulars.

 

[barnaclelapse]

Everything you love is wrong and stupid!

And you're adopted!

 

[TheGodBen]

All that means is that since you realized you "may have been unfair" you're just going to go through the series and point out how much you hated it all over again. I've been putting up with this for 14 years and nothing has changed from any of the haters. I've been reading the same book for all that time so I know very well the contents.

I'm sorry, but I would be remiss if I was to not point out how horribly intolerant your attitude is. Honestly, you sicken me with those words.

I am an individual and I will not be dismissed as "just like all the rest" just because you have had bad experiences in the past. Guess what, we all have bad experiences with different sorts of people, I have had some particularly nasty experiences with Christians but I don't lump them all into one group and dismiss them all. Some Christians are good, some Christians are assholes, the important thing to remember is that every single person is different and should not be judged by how they label themselves.

That's what IDIC is all about, by the way.

You think I care what VOY haters think of me? They hold anyone who likes VOY and ENT (and TNG too) in utter contempt anyways.

How do you think it makes me feel to be judged based on the actions of other people?! I don't dislike you because you like Voyager, I like plenty of people on this board who are fans of the show. I dislike you because your attitude is very obnoxious and you are very closed-minded, and for how you have treated me in this thread. If you want to dislike me for similar reasons then feel free, but don't you dare claim that you can judge me based on the actions of people who are not me!

I'm not making up anything, go around and ask and you'll see that VOY haters will agree that "The series should have been exactly like Equinox", in other words there should've been no likable characters, they should have been doing totally unethical and morally reprehensible stuff 100% of the time (not even having them slowly abandont heir ideals, because Trek ideals are so worthless they don't even deserve to be slowly discarded, just discarded on the spot) and at the end of the series they should have gotten away with everything and not suffer any bad consequences for their actions because it's good to be immoral manipulative barbarians.

Excuse me but I think I know my opinion far better than you ever will, and since I have bothered to read every last one of the 1,975 posts in the "hater" thread I have a very good idea of what people perceive as the problems with Voyager. I can tell you right now that you are misrepresenting a large group of people and I have almost 2,000 posts worth of evidence to back me up. It's not my fault if you have your eyes closed to the evidence right before your eyes, but I constantly see you spouting the same bullshit over and over again on this board and I am sick of it. You are as bad as the extremist Voyager haters in that regard.

I was reading the tail end of the thread and stopped when I saw how some folks were getting into a tizzy over something as dumb as "Janeway is supposed to twitch he commbadge when she thinks of something devious but it's never happened before!". Haters are still haters.

Which should prove to you right away that the biggest problem most people have with Voyager was its lack of continuity and not the BS you've been talking about. Is the commbadge comment a minor thing? Yes, I agree that it is and that's why I didn't detract any points from the episode for such a flippant line.

But that goes against your view of people like me doesn't it, that we could be fair? Guess it can't be true in that case.

No, he just slugs him twice.

Sisko slugs Garak, Garak falls back onto his table and then falls to the ground. I have video evidence right here. Are you going to dispute video evidence now?