TNG Relaunch: What happened to Madden?
- Thread starter Captain Dago
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Thanks to those who provided the evidence I asked for regarding Worf being the Defiant's XO.
If you take a look at the structure of DS9, I would argue that if he were just the Defiant's XO, and had no other duties, I don't think that alone would be justification for having him be the Enterprise's new XO. However, as KRAD points out, his overall duties on DS9 were pretty significant and pretty involved.
I think where this has been bobbled a bit was on the show itself. You have Sisko dressing Worf down, telling him he'll never make Captain, but then things remain pretty status quo for him. During the War, Worf continues down the command track, serving both Starfleet and the Empire in command capacities. I don't think it out of line to argue that after the War, Worf could have been given his own command. It's never explicitly said that Starfleet forgave him his indiscretions regarding Jadzia, but I don't think it an unreasonable supposition.
That brings us to the question of desire. Going off of on-screen canon, I think we can draw a lot of conclusions regarding the direction Worf wanted to go. However, as we're discussing this matter within the context of the novel canon, we have to work within that canon. I haven't read the A Time to Fill in the Blanks books, which is where Worf's career aspirations and desires are discussed.
I, personally, don't think going further down the command track would have mattered to the Worf I know (w/o reading A Time to ...). I think he would have been content to be 2nd officer and security chief or ops on the Enterprise E.
However, that's not the direction the novel writers have gone with the character. And that's one of the reasons why Commander Madden is nowhere to be seen in Resistance.
If you take a look at the structure of DS9, I would argue that if he were just the Defiant's XO, and had no other duties, I don't think that alone would be justification for having him be the Enterprise's new XO. However, as KRAD points out, his overall duties on DS9 were pretty significant and pretty involved.
I think where this has been bobbled a bit was on the show itself. You have Sisko dressing Worf down, telling him he'll never make Captain, but then things remain pretty status quo for him. During the War, Worf continues down the command track, serving both Starfleet and the Empire in command capacities. I don't think it out of line to argue that after the War, Worf could have been given his own command. It's never explicitly said that Starfleet forgave him his indiscretions regarding Jadzia, but I don't think it an unreasonable supposition.
That brings us to the question of desire. Going off of on-screen canon, I think we can draw a lot of conclusions regarding the direction Worf wanted to go. However, as we're discussing this matter within the context of the novel canon, we have to work within that canon. I haven't read the A Time to Fill in the Blanks books, which is where Worf's career aspirations and desires are discussed.
I, personally, don't think going further down the command track would have mattered to the Worf I know (w/o reading A Time to ...). I think he would have been content to be 2nd officer and security chief or ops on the Enterprise E.
However, that's not the direction the novel writers have gone with the character. And that's one of the reasons why Commander Madden is nowhere to be seen in Resistance.
Besides, that wouldn't solve anything because people who haven't read said book would still ask about him. 
Okay, you say you're going just on the on-screen evidence, but you don't actually cite any evidence to support this notion, beyond the fact that he was at tactical in Nemesis (and still in command red, a logic flaw that I addressed in A Time to Tolstoy, but which is never explained onscreen). Personally, I don't see it at all, as Worf accepted every promotion he was offered on the show, even if it turned out to be temporary -- to security chief in "Skin of Evil," to full lieutenant between the second and third seasons, to ops officer (and possibly second officer?) in "The Most Toys" (that was the temporary one), to lieutenant commander in Generations, to SOO on DS9 in "The Way of the Warrior" (where he specifically said to O'Brien that wearing command red felt good), to his added duties during the war, to Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire in "What You Leave Behind." He wasn't actively ambitious the way, say, Shelby was in "The Best of Both Worlds," but he also showed a healthy interest in advancing his career.
So why would he then accept a demotion upon returning to Starfleet?
I'm not saying your interpretation is illegitimate, mind, I'm just curious what episodes point you in the direction of thinking Worf would go back to a position he had already been promoted out of seven years earlier.
To me, the question is simple:
Worf at tactical/security: Been there, done that.
Worf as first officer: Ooh, new story possibilities!
QED.
Worf at tactical/security: Been there, done that.
Worf as first officer: Ooh, new story possibilities!
QED.
The on-screen evidence is this: At the end of DS9, he's on his way to Kronos to be Ambassador to the Klingon Empire, which is a significant promotion over his post/rank on DS9. Then, in Nemesis, we see him back at Tactical on the Enterprise, granted in Command Red, but at Tactical nonetheless. There is no on-screen explanation for why he is serving as the Tactical Officer in Nemesis.
No matter what position he accpets on the Enterprise, it would, in fact, be a demotion from his position as Ambassador to the Empire.
I don't find it implausible for him to return to the Enterprise in a capacity other than XO or in a "demoted" role. Anything could have happened off-screen in-between the end of DS9 and Nemesis that could have led to a demotion.
You and your colleagues have come up with a storyline that explains everything. I haven't read it, mind you, but I acknowledge it and respect it. All I'm pointing out is that one of many different things could have occurred, based on the on-screen canon.
No matter what position he accpets on the Enterprise, it would, in fact, be a demotion from his position as Ambassador to the Empire.
I don't find it implausible for him to return to the Enterprise in a capacity other than XO or in a "demoted" role. Anything could have happened off-screen in-between the end of DS9 and Nemesis that could have led to a demotion.
You and your colleagues have come up with a storyline that explains everything. I haven't read it, mind you, but I acknowledge it and respect it. All I'm pointing out is that one of many different things could have occurred, based on the on-screen canon.
^ Agreed. I was just curious what onscreen evidence you were looking at. Asked and answered.
Christopher's point is also very well taken. We'd already had six years of Worf as the tactical officer/security chief. Putting him back there is moving backward (as is putting Wesley back in a Starfleet uniform, for that matter). More story possibilities when you move forward.
Christopher's point is also very well taken. We'd already had six years of Worf as the tactical officer/security chief. Putting him back there is moving backward (as is putting Wesley back in a Starfleet uniform, for that matter). More story possibilities when you move forward.
Since the TNG relaunch doesn't take up right after Nemesis, or the (deleted) mission to whichever Denab/eb/aab/6 planets with the same name, can't he be spliced in as a temporary temporary first officer? Like just before that mission started, he slipped and fell and had to take medical leave, only to find his position filled? I know it's not canon, but the character was cast and filmed, so people are going to wonder what happened to him until something actually does happen to him.
Jaron said:
You're right. We need a story where someone travels back in time and kills his grandfather instead.
Yeah. Madden's great great grandfather was a MACO in ENT, after all.
Back when Voyager was in development, these were two early character 'versions'. Teff was a female alien engineer from the Delta Quadrant partnered with a male alien called 'Nilik'. Tor-Rof was a Klingon/Human security officer who was part of the Maquis crew under a guy called 'Chokate'...
I'd agree that Amoros was pretty much Bashir by a different name, but I'm not so sure about Hernandez. Granted, she had the same backstory but her character had a distinctly different ethnic background from Tasha, and I guess I've always felt that she would have "played" differently on screen because of that.
It's interesting to speculate... I've always had this idea that Macha Hernandez is out there somewhere in the ST universe, somewhat pissed off that this Yar woman beat her to the plum job of Enterprise security chief...
As for Elizabeth Janeway, if Genevieve Bujold had gone the distance and played the character across the length of the show, I think we'd have had a very different captain than Kate Mulgrew's Kathryn Janeway.
Besides which, "On the Spot" would seem to establish that Worf was the (temporary) XO from the moment the Enterprise-E's new mission started. So there's not even a place to shove in Mister Madden.
Only if they have trouble grasping the concept of a deleted scene. You might as well say people are going to wonder what happened to the coal-powered Enterprise engines from the TOS gag reel, or why the characters don't react to that guy who keeps standing in front of everybody and clapping a clapboard just before they start talking. Just because something is on film doesn't mean it counts.
I've been wondering during this disscussion if something is actually added back into the movie do you guys then have to follow it? Like for instance say they did another Star Trek movie, and it ends with everybody still on the ship, but then a directors cut is realeased on DVD which has Picard retiring from Starfleet. Now if for some unknown reason there were no Trek books between the two that had Picard in them, which version would you guys have to follow? I understand this is very hypothetical situation and if you guys don't have an answer, that's fine I was just tossing it out there.
The reason Michal Dorn was put in the movies I believe is cuz his contract called for that. I always felt it was odd that they had to come up with reasons or excuses to get Worf on the Enterprise when they ran into trouble.
But I agree he deserves to be a first officer.
But I agree he deserves to be a first officer.
Deleted scenes are quite a bit different than gag reel scenes or the production clapboard guy. Deleted scenes are often left on the cutting room floor for time or because changes were made to the story and the scenes became superfulous or irrelevant.
Because the deleted scene was included in the DVD as a deleted scene, everyone has the right, in a TrekLit forum, to ask the question, "What happened to Madden?" What we don't have the right to say is "Because he was in that deleted scene, you writers must use him or explain what happened."
I would have loved to see him included in the relaunch books, but I also respect the need to figure out what to do with Worf. Personally, I think Paramount's need to include Worf in the TNG movies was getting a little silly. When Worf took the job at DS9, he acted like he had moved on from the Enterprise, period. I have a harder time believing that he would go back than I do having him get promoted to XO in light of the whole Jadzia thingie (which has been explained to death).
As I said above, being the Ambassador to the Empire is a significant promotion, as I believe Ambassadors (at least in the US) carry a civillian rank equivelant to that of a Flag Officer. Essentially, by coming back to be the XO on the Enterprise, Worf went from being a Rear Admiral back to Commander.
Now, I'm not saying that Worf should suddenly be the corrupt Admiral of the week ordering Picard around (Janeway appears to be filling that role quite well), but perhaps XO of the Enterprise isn't where he should be either.
I think his presence in FC was entirely plausible since the Defiant was designed to fight the Borg and because Worf is the CO of the Defiant, he commanded the ship when it went up against the Borg.
I don't even remember what the excuse was for him being aboard in Insurrection, wasn't he actually supposed to be Ambassador by that time? I can't remember.
As for Nemesis, he was present for the wedding because he'd been invited. His presence there is one thing, but his usefulness is quite another and he really had no reason to be at tactical in that film. They just had to include him.
That said, the writing on Nemesis was beyond a joke and the storyline itself was worse. The TNG cast could have gone out in a much better way than they did - but that's what the novels are for, to move on from crap and make it better, just like the editors/writers are doing with Enterprise.
Worf being XO on the Big E is a good idea, I can just imagine him hovering at tactical looking over the new guy's shoulders and wondering where the hell they trained him. It makes for good character development and I think that it'll give us some good stories.
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