TNG changed the Timeline.

[C.E. Evans]

Some would say TNG changed the timeline by moving the entirety of TOS from the early 23rd-Century to the later 23rd-Century. As such, SNW moving the chronological placement of some major events is not anything new.

It happened before, and it will happen again. Oops, is that from some other sci-fi franchise?

 

[Oddish]

It happens all the time. Look at how they arbitrarily decided to make Riker five years younger, round about the 6th or 7th season.

 

[JesterFace]

Sometimes I wonder what is so precious about the timeline it should not be messed with.
If something weird happens.... it just happens, maybe it should have happened anyway?
Who is to say what is the "correct" way for things to unfold.
Obviously there are gazillions of opinions on how things should happen but what exactly is the correct way and who or what makes those decisions? Is it all just down to luck? Happenstance?

 

[Phoenix219]

Okay, but explain First Contact, Enterprise, Discovery, and Strange New Worlds, all following the example put up by TNG?

First Contact changed the timeline, causing the rest of them, which all changed the timeline even more.

 

[BillJ]

Some would say TNG changed the timeline by moving the entirety of TOS from the early 23rd-Century to the later 23rd-Century. As such, SNW moving the chronological placement of some major events is not anything new.

TMP/TWoK did that. Though there was never a real hard date in TOS for the timing of the series.

Decker has a line in TMP about Voyager VI launching "three hundred years ago". If we take it as vaguely rounding, it puts the series somewhere between the 2250's and 2280's. Though one could argue that it might be later considering the launch dates of Voyager I and II.

TWoK starts with a banner, "in the late-23rd century".

 

[Phoenix219]

Think a Starfleet member from the future, like Tasha being captured and interrogated by the Romulans could have changed their actions big way and caused a lot of changes in galactic politics, probably resulting in the things I mentioned.

A TON of future political knowledge from Tasha could absolutely change the way the Romulans are operating in the aftermath. This could be the moment where they get involved in some type of time travel program, ultimately resulting in what we see on SNW.

I completely agree that the timeline has been rewritten so many times that facts from TOS and early TNG are no longer relevent, especially when they are concerning the 21st and 22nd century.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I completely agree that the timeline has been rewritten so many times that facts from TOS and early TNG are no longer relevent, especially when they are concerning the 21st and 22nd century.

Like I said, in a universe where "temporal war" is a thing (as ENT and SNW showed), it can be easily argued that there is no such thing as an 'original timeline'.

For all we know, TOS itself was the result of temporal incursions. There's just no way to know.

That said, I'm still sticking with my view that ST:FC is a predestination paradox. It was always supposed to happen. You can't prove it wasn't, anyway.

 

[BillJ]

You can't prove it wasn't, anyway.

Because it is a movie. But looking at Trek afterwards, it is clear things changed to some degree. They couldn't not have.

 

[C.E. Evans]

TMP/TWoK did that. Though there was never a real hard date in TOS for the timing of the series.

TMP/TWOK established TOS as in the 23rd Century, but there were some offhand remarks in some TOS episodes that implied it's just "a couple of centuries" from now, so the early 23rd-Century was accepted by many fans and even some tie-in works back in the day (pre-TNG).

Decker has a line in TMP about Voyager VI launching "three hundred years ago". If we take it as vaguely rounding, it puts the series somewhere between the 2250's and 2280's. Though one could argue that it might be later considering the launch dates of Voyager I and II.

TWoK starts with a banner, "in the late-23rd century".

Actually, the banner in TWOK only said "In the 23rd-Century..."

IIRC, Decker's line in TMP didn't really move the needle that much. Some took Decker as speaking figuratively and still kept TOS (and TMP) in the early 23rd-Century. Both the FASA games and the often lauded Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise reference book did the same, even placing the launch of the Enterprise-A in TVH in the year 2222.

And then there was Data's infamous line in "Encounter At Farpoint" about graduating from the Starfleet Academy "Class of 78," which many took as "the Class of 2278," which they thought supported the idea of TOS taking place much earlier.

Then Data (again!) informed everyone that the year was 2364 in "The Neutral Zone" and that definitively ended the idea that TOS took place in the early 23rd-Century once and for all.

 

[BillJ]

TMP/TWOK established TOS as in the 23rd Century, but there were some offhand remarks in some TOS episodes that implied it's just "a couple of centuries" from now, so the early 23rd-Century was accepted by many fans and even some tie-in works back in the day (pre-TNG).

Actually, the banner in TWOK only said "In the 23rd-Century..."

IIRC, Decker's line in TMP didn't really move the needle that much. Some took Decker as speaking figuratively and still kept TOS (and TMP) in the early 23rd-Century. Both the FASA games and the often lauded Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise reference book did the same, even placing the launch of the Enterprise-A in TVH in the year 2222.

And then there was Data's infamous line in "Encounter At Farpoint" about graduating from the Starfleet Academy "Class of 78," which many took as "the Class of 2278," which they thought supported the idea of TOS taking place much earlier.

Then Data (again!) informed everyone that the year was 2364 in "The Neutral Zone" and that definitively ended the idea that TOS took place in the early 23rd-Century once and for all.

You'll never get what you actually want, a definitive answer. Because Star Trek was simply not designed that way. It was largely a weekly anthology series that went wherever the writer's wanted to go that episode.

Honestly, I've always preferred it that way.

 

[fireproof78]

TMP/TWOK established TOS as in the 23rd Century, but there were some offhand remarks in some TOS episodes that implied it's just "a couple of centuries" from now, so the early 23rd-Century was accepted by many fans and even some tie-in works back in the day (pre-TNG).

Space Seed actually says "Two Hundred years" which I hadn't caught before.

KHAN: Captain, I wonder if I could have something to read during my convalescence. I was once an engineer of sorts. I would be most interested in studying the technical manuals on your vessel.
KIRK: Yes, I understand. You have two hundred years of catching up to do.

 

[C.E. Evans]

You'll never get what you actually want, a definitive answer. Because Star Trek was simply not designed that way. It was largely a weekly anthology series that went wherever the writer's wanted to go that episode.

Honestly, I've always preferred it that way.

No argument from me. It was just interesting what some people thought at the time.

 

[Tuskin38]

That said, I'm still sticking with my view that ST:FC is a predestination paradox. It was always supposed to happen. You can't prove it wasn't, anyway.

The Voyager writers agree with you.

 

[Phoenix219]

I don't believe in predestination paradoxes. There was always an original version, before outside interference, in one form or another, whether it be time travelers, dimensional travelers, godlike 4-d entities, changed events enough to start and cause a loop, which can usually be solved into a timeline rewrite at some later point.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

Thoughts?

Bill said it very well.

But then, I treat it as a multiverse. They happened in 1992 and 2092, it is all good.

Same.

For me there’s:

1. TOS - TAS
2. TOS Movies-ENT and everything in between
3. Obviously Kelvin

The newer stuff is slightly trickier to pin down. PIC, LDS and PRO obviously go into 2. While DSC and SNW go into a new timeline:

4. Discoverse.

I wouldn’t tell anyone else they should do it like that, but that’s the easiest way for me to reconcile it all. Once that’s out of the way I can just enjoy the stories.

Another advantage of this approach is I can enjoy novels, comics and so on in the same way.

 

[xenotaris]

Hmmm I feel season 1 & 2 to PIC should be in its own timeline. Since the sudden change in the Romulan's stance on A.I. made me go "What dafaq?"

 

[Tosk]

Hmmm I feel season 1 & 2 to PIC should be in its own timeline. Since the sudden change in the Romulan's stance on A.I. made me go "What dafaq?"

Or there was no change, and Jarok simply knew some cyberneticists who would love to meet Data because they aren't otherwise allowed to study A.I.

I think it would be rash to base our understanding of an entire species on the brief statement of a single Romulan.

 

[Phoenix219]

So "its a multiverse" solves the problem for some people, but its..... literally the same thing as a timeline rewrite changing the happenstance of the world. I'm just of the opinion its an everchanging fabric being rewritten constantly instead of multiple separate physical universes that coexist. I don't see why one is such a solution but the other pisses people off so much, when they show has given so many perfectly-timed instances where a timeline rewrite would fit the circumstances and explain the issues lol.

 

[BillJ]

So "its a multiverse" solves the problem for some people, but its..... literally the same thing as a timeline rewrite changing the happenstance of the world. I'm just of the opinion its an everchanging fabric being rewritten constantly instead of multiple separate physical universes that coexist. I don't see why one is such a solution but the other pisses people off so much, when they show has given so many perfectly-timed instances where a timeline rewrite would fit the circumstances and explain the issues lol.

I think it is just one of those things that works based on the person looking at it. To me, a constantly shifting timeline means that things I love, are being "overwritten". A multiverse means everything happened as we saw it, nothing is "overwritten" for the sake of a current plot.

Just one of those, "mileage may vary" type of situations.

 

[Tuskin38]

Hmmm I feel season 1 & 2 to PIC should be in its own timeline. Since the sudden change in the Romulan's stance on A.I. made me go "What dafaq?"

Picard Season 3 directly references several things from the first 2 seasons, one of them being central to the plot, so if you think they're their own timeline, than so should Season 3.

PIC, LDS and PRO obviously go into 2. While DSC and SNW go into a new timeline:

4. Discoverse.

But that doesn't jive with the SNW/LDS crossover episode. None of the LDS characters notice anything 'wrong' about the past. The events in the past line up with what Tendi said about her ancestor being on the Orion 'science' ship and discovering the time portal.

The events of the crossover are also referenced in LDS Season 4, Mariner outright mentions 'The Pike thing' and we see Boimler's Number One poster a few times during the season.