Spoilers Titans - DC Universe Series

[theenglish]

There's massive shade thrown to actors who take "whitewashed" roles or is that not what you mean?

I wasn't referring to "whitewashing" situations--but I agree with Christopher's point in that regard.

I was referring specifically to "fan boys" who attack non-white actors and women nearly every time they get cast in a role--sometimes even when that role does not have a previously specified skin color attached to it (as in The Last Jedi or this Starfire).

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I wasn't referring to "whitewashing" situations--but I agree with Christopher's point in that regard.

I was referring specifically to "fan boys" who attack non-white actors and women nearly every time they get cast in a role--sometimes even when that role does not have a previously specified skin color attached to it (as in The Last Jedi or this Starfire).

Is there a nasty toxic racist sexist element in these cases, absolutely. Is it nearly every time? I don't really think so, this stems from roles in properties that are problematic in other ways and some use the opportunity to attach their nasty shit. However, plenty of non-white actors are cast without much issue.

Zazie Beetz as Domino, Idris Elba in anything, Zoe Saldana, Ming Na Wen, Jessica Henwick, Rosario Dawson, Simone Messick, Jennifer Lawrence, Gal Gadot. Lots of non-white actors, women actors, non-white women actors etc. get very little ire drawn in their roles.

 

[Mage]

I don't think that's directed at the actors so much as at the filmmakers who choose them over the people who should be getting the roles..

I dunno, I remember Scarlet Johanssen getting a lot of flake personally aswell for Ghost In The Shell, which was brought up again after the situation with the transgender character (sorry, forgot the name).

Even if it’s just breaking the guys neck, still makes Robin a fucking monster rather than a hero. The guy was down, what is the point of breaking the guy’s jaw at that point? For fun? Vengeance?

And that's a good point for me as well. In the Netherlands, US comics aren't that readily available, so I haven't read a lot of comicbooks in my childhood. And I haven't read for over 20 years now, so perhaps Dick Grayson has changed. But the one I knew, wouldn't break a guys neck or jaw like that, and fight so violently that he would be covered in blood.

 

[dahj]

Is there a nasty toxic racist sexist element in these cases, absolutely. Is it nearly every time? I don't really think so

When someone gets harassed, looking for the one person that doesn't get harassed isn't really helping the situation.

I think you're severely underestimating how widespread this is. If we take a look at just a couple of you're "everything's fine" examples... There's a giant thread on this very forum on Gal Gadot's casting which is mostly people complaining she shouldn't have been cast, and she still continuously gets lots of antisemitic comments, which thankfully get drowned out by thousands of positive comments. Jennifer Lawrence avoids all social media because of the shit she's read about herself on the internet, which is really the only reason she doesn't get hate personally delivered to her inbox.

You don't really hear about it because people deal with it in various ways, this only makes news when people who aren't getting a lot of comments suddenly get drowned in hate to the point of having to turn the bloody thing off.

There is still a prevalent position of turning a blind eye to the toxic attitudes of fandoms towards women and minorities. It's easy to say "well it's only a few people, it doesn't happen that often, it's only when something is problematic" but that is all just a cheap way to excuse this behaviour and normalize it. This shouldn't be happening at all, and we shouldn't only be talking about it when it successfully drives someone off social media.

 

[Christopher]

When someone gets harassed, looking for the one person that doesn't get harassed isn't really helping the situation.

Absolutely. If someone runs up to you and says "Help, my friend's house is on fire!", you don't look around and say, "Hey, but most of these houses aren't on fire, so I don't have to worry."

 

[Guy Gardener]

Tara "Terra" Markov.

Did she catfish the Titans?

Original mean-girl?

 

[theenglish]

Is there a nasty toxic racist sexist element in these cases, absolutely. Is it nearly every time? I don't really think so, this stems from roles in properties that are problematic in other ways and some use the opportunity to attach their nasty shit. However, plenty of non-white actors are cast without much issue.

Zazie Beetz as Domino, Idris Elba in anything, Zoe Saldana, Ming Na Wen, Jessica Henwick, Rosario Dawson, Simone Messick, Jennifer Lawrence, Gal Gadot. Lots of non-white actors, women actors, non-white women actors etc. get very little ire drawn in their roles.

I think you are underestimating the problem--even in your examples that are supposed to show actors who don't get harassed, at least five (Saldana, Wen, Dawson, Lawrence, Gadot) have been the brunt of racist and/or sexist attacks over the last decade. I also remember there were a lot of comments about Elba being cast as the Gunslinger in the Dark Tower and criticism every time his name comes up as a potential Bond. I don't know about the other three.

Furthermore, this goes beyond just attacking actors--celebrity female gamers get attacked in the most horrible ways with rape and death threats. The recent Hugo award controversy attacking minority writers is another example.

I think this is very much a widespread issue. Now I'm sure in the long run it represents a minority of fandom, like with any other radicalized yet highly vocal group, but that minority is far reaching, and often methodical and organized, in its attacks. We recently learned how widespread online misogynistic hate groups are; the ones where men turn their hurt about not getting laid or getting work into blaming women and minorities for the men's own shortcomings or bad luck. This is just an extension of that.

 

[Christopher]

Furthermore, this goes beyond just attacking actors--celebrity female gamers get attacked in the most horrible ways with rape and death threats. The recent Hugo award controversy attacking minority writers is another example.

I think this is very much a widespread issue. Now I'm sure in the long run it represents a minority of fandom, like with any other radicalized yet highly vocal group, but that minority is far reaching, and often methodical and organized, in its attacks. We recently learned how widespread online misogynistic hate groups are; the ones where men turn their hurt about not getting laid or getting work into blaming women and minorities for the men's own shortcomings or bad luck. This is just an extension of that.

Yes. You can find direct connections and common membership between the groups behind pop-culture hate movements like Gamergate and the Rabid Puppies and the open racists and "incels" that are now running people down with cars and committing mass shootings. It's all a single interconnected hate movement that's been getting more and more brazen.

 

[Kane_Steel]

You still haven't supported your claim that Diop lied. How are you more credible than that page?

Did you actually read what I wrote?

I said Diop lied about the set photos not being representative of the finished product.

We saw the footage in Titans and know how horrid she looks as Starfire. The reactions on Youtube as soon as she shows up are priceless, lol.

 

[Kane_Steel]

By the way, calling what happened to Kelly Marie Tran only a rumor that got started by a sketchy account, that's cute. If your intents were to cast fear, uncertainty, and doubt and to gaslight, then I gotta say: "Oops. You really blew it." If you wanted to actually post an admission that you find the allegations of cyberbullying against both Diop and Tran to be credible, you couldn't have picked anything much clearer than that, short of coming out and explicitly saying it.

I said the audience reaction was 'expected.' This isn't the first time those involved with the production highlight a few comments that crossed the line as a means of 'damage control' for a poorly received product.

Sony made famous this tactic during the Ghostbusters 2016 promotions. Specifically deleting comments that had genuine criticism and highlighting the few comments that were personal attacks.

It's how they shift the narrative and focus the negativity away from the show or movie, and on the audience.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Did you actually read what I wrote?

I said Diop lied about the set photos not being representative of the finished product.

We saw the footage in Titans and know how horrid she looks as Starfire. The reactions on Youtube as soon as she shows up are priceless, lol.

First of all, I was talking about whether she lied about receiving volumes of hate speech on Instagram. If that wasn't clear before, now it should be. Thanks to the direct evidence posted by @dodge, there is little reason to doubt that she was telling the truth about being the target of hate speech, not that there was any reason to doubt it before.

ed - See this post below for further clarification about what I was referring to: https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/titans-dc-universe-series.295069/page-6#post-12557869

Second of all, how can what little that's been posted be representative of anything? So she appears to be in street clothes. So what? How do we know she's not in disguise, or not trying to be, or that this isn't her first adventure on Earth, or that she and the other non-Robin Titans won't get costumes either over the course of the season or by the season's end, as @Christopher reasonably proposed? ??? We don't, we can't, the thing isn't even out yet.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I said the audience reaction was 'expected.' This isn't the first time those involved with the production highlight a few comments that crossed the line as a means of 'damage control' for a poorly received product.

Sony made famous this tactic during the Ghostbusters 2016 promotions. Specifically deleting comments that had genuine criticism and highlighting the few comments that were personal attacks.

It's how they shift the narrative and focus the negativity away from the show or movie, and on the audience.

No one's saying that the final product will be good, because we don't know that. No one's saying that people shouldn't be able to say they don't like something, even if it's based on just a small amount of data.

We're talking about hate speech directed at people who work on the show, in this case lead actors. Examples were posted. Those of us who are appalled by the hate speech aren't actually conflating legitimate criticism with the latter.

 

[dahj]

First of all, I was talking about whether she lied about receiving volumes of hate speech on Instagram.

I think it should be pointed out that she hasn't made any direct comment on the situation. She's only disabled comments on her account. It is speculated that the volume of hate speech is why she did so.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I think it should be pointed out that she hasn't made any direct comment on the situation. She's only disabled comments on her account. It is speculated that the volume of hate speech is why she did so.

Thank you for that. I agree.

It was actually @Kane_Steel who claimed she had said something that had been a lie. I had quoted it upthread, and it's quoted again below. I was responding specifically to this claim that he made but in support of which he had offered no evidence and still hasn't.

I'm not surprised that she's going the 'Star Wars' route to blame those who dislike her and the trailer as 'racist' and 'sexist'.

Based on my post that immediately precedes that post and the general topic under discussion, by "she," it's Diop.

 

[theenglish]

I said the audience reaction was 'expected.' This isn't the first time those involved with the production highlight a few comments that crossed the line as a means of 'damage control' for a poorly received product.

Sony made famous this tactic during the Ghostbusters 2016 promotions. Specifically deleting comments that had genuine criticism and highlighting the few comments that were personal attacks.

It's how they shift the narrative and focus the negativity away from the show or movie, and on the audience.

This is a straw man tactic, intentional or unintentional. Regardless of what studios may or may not have done is not even remotely the issue. You have so far dismissed or at least attempted to minimize a very serious issue as it appeared in Star Wars fandom, Ghostbusters fandom, and now the reaction to the Titans trailer. Nobody in this thread is confusing racism and misogyny with legitimate criticism except for yourself and a few other posters who are clearly in the minority--therefore, by your own logic, we should just ignore your opinion.

 

[dahj]

we should just ignore your opinion.

Totally works for me.

 

[Kane_Steel]

No one's saying that the final product will be good, because we don't know that. No one's saying that people shouldn't be able to say they don't like something, even if it's based on just a small amount of data.

We're talking about hate speech directed at people who work on the show, in this case lead actors. Examples were posted. Those of us who are appalled by the hate speech aren't actually conflating legitimate criticism with the latter.

No one's saying that the final product will be good, because we don't know that. No one's saying that people shouldn't be able to say they don't like something, even if it's based on just a small amount of data.

We're talking about hate speech directed at people who work on the show, in this case lead actors. Examples were posted. Those of us who are appalled by the hate speech aren't actually conflating legitimate criticism with the latter.

The only 'lie' I referred to by Diop is her claim that her hooker outfit in the street photos is not indicative of how she will appear in the final product.

And low and behold, she looks just as terrible in the footage for Titans.


Also, you are misinformed. At SDCC, they had the Series costumes and Series character posters on display, and guess what Starfire's looked like:

 

[Kane_Steel]

This is a straw man tactic, intentional or unintentional. Regardless of what studios may or may not have done is not even remotely the issue. You have so far dismissed or at least attempted to minimize a very serious issue as it appeared in Star Wars fandom, Ghostbusters fandom, and now the reaction to the Titans trailer. Nobody in this thread is confusing racism and misogyny with legitimate criticism except for yourself and a few other posters who are clearly in the minority--therefore, by your own logic, we should just ignore your opinion.

Fine by me. I'm hardly the only one who's called that tactic out by the studios. See all the YT vids and commentary on the way Sony played up the audience 'misogyny' behind Ghostbusters 2016.... and how well it worked for them, lol.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The only 'lie' I referred to by Diop is her claim that her hooker outfit in the street photos is not indicative of how she will appear in the final product.

And low and behold, she looks just as terrible in the footage for Titans.


Also, you are misinformed. At SDCC, they had the Series costumes and Series character posters on display, and guess what Starfire's looked like:

That's "lo and behold."

Those are two different dresses by the way.

And now you're gaslighting about your own posts.

 

[dahj]

See all the YT vids and commentary

A font of knowledge and civility, to be sure!