No, your brain doesn't work hard enough to understand. Or rather you simply refuse to understand it, you don't want to understand it, so you simply ignore it. The above that I wrote down for the second time now, is simple logic. Anyone coming to it with functioning logic and not willfully ignore it, will know I'm right.
3D Master, it must be frustrating being the only person in this forum with a functioning brain. I applaud your patience.
However, you are bending over backwards to excuse all previous inconsistencies and stating that all time travel in "Star Trek" is always the same, but then, when you discuss "Star Trek XI," which does not show anything that hasn't happened in a dozen other episodes, you are saying some rule was broken.
Wrong, it does. It shows, or rather claims, time travel causing a new reality to be split off, which would eliminate all possibility of changing the timeline of your own reality.
But different methods of time travel DO produce different results.
It's one thing to be caught inside a temporal anomaly, or a time loop, or a predestination paradox, but it's another issue entirely to jump backwards in time and tinker with the past.
More like the other way around. Jump backwards in time and tinker with the past is standard operating procedure for Trek. Temporal anomalies and time loops and predestination paradoxes are much much much rarer.
And then there's a third phenomenon, where there's an ongoing gateway between two timelines, where people can pass through the gateway at different times.
For example, in "Yesterday's Enterprise," the rift remained open for many hours, allowing the characters to choose whether or not to go back through it.
There is no gateway between two timelines here. There is no way for the Warship Enterprise-D to pass through a gateway and meet the Starship Enterprise-D
There's only a gateway from the past to the future; a future that happens to have BEEN CHANGED as a RESULT of the time travel; but there is no inter-timeline or rather inter-reality travel going on here at all.
In "Star Trek XI," the black hole creates an ongoing gateway between Ambassador Spock's timeline and the new timeline where Nero has been stirring up trouble for 25 years.
Nope.
According to the movie, Nero went back in time, and as a result a brand new reality that not exist before he went back in time SPLIT OFF from the parent reality, (a feat that would negate any possibility of ever changing your own timeline as we've seen happen over and over again in Trek.)
What you see is the opposite; Nero and Spock travel into an already existing other reality and travel into its past at the same time, and change its past - well actually, if it's another reality we don't know if they traveled in time at all, or that they changed anything, but now we get into the nitty gritty and semantics.
[/quote]Likewise, in
"In a Mirror, Darkly," there was an ongoing interphasic rift between the 23rd Century and 2155 in the Mirror Universe, through which the U.S.S.
Defiant slipped.
That episode, alone, establishes the precedent that time travel can involve different alternate realities connected by a "hole" in space.[/quote]
Whether or not you can travel into another reality matters not. As I've been saying multiple times over already: traveling into another reality is NOT time travel. You may be time traveling at the same time as traveling into another reality (although strictly speaking in the above scenario this is not necessary, but again that is nitty gritty stuff); however this is completely different from Trek XI claims has happened and has nothing to do with simple time travel.
I personally don't see anything new or different with Spock and Nero going back through the black hole in this movie.
The difference is, that the movie claims that
as a result of nothing but time travel
an entirely NEW reality was
split off from the parent reality - a reality that did
not exist before the
simple non-inter-reality time travel occurred.
Lt. Yar going back on the Enterprise-C and living out her life in the new timeline is exactly what Spock is doing in "Star Trek XI." If you were to ask both Lt. Yar and Ambassador Spock where they are a year after each of those stories, they would both say the same exact thing: "I am living in the past of an alternate timeline, different from my own."
To say otherwise is just applying your own personal opinions of the stories. You can twist the meanings of the words and events from the movies and episodes to suit your argument, but you clearly have an agenda to set this new movie apart from every other "Star Trek" episode, while stretching credibility to forgive every obvious contradiction from previous time travel stories.
Except that in Trek XI it is deliberately stated, said, and shown that both the younger and the older Spock do
not say they are simply living in
their past, and changed past because of it.
Both say, OUTRIGHT, that the original time line continues to exist parallel to their own.
Yar would say: "The Enterprise-C went back into the past, changed the timeline, I'm now living a different timeline." (Nowhere does reality / parallel universe even come up.)
Old and young spock in Trek XI say (again, I'm not making this up, or speculating, they're saying it straight to your face even in not these exact words): "Old Spock comes from a parallel reality / universe that continues onward uninterrupted. Old Spock is now in an entirely different reality where his and his fellow time travelers actions have had consequence changed the timeline which as a result split this reality off entirely from the parent reality."
As to the Nexus in "Generations," Guinan entered and left the Nexus before Kirk, then Kirk entered and left the Nexus before Picard entered, then Picard left the nexus before he entered. Obviously, they are all echoes to each other, since none of them were in the Nexus at the same "time," but they all knew each other inside the Nexus.
No. Both Picard and Kirk were real were fully present inside the nexus. They were not echose to each other they were actually there. Guinan however was not real, she was just an echoe if not entirely a creation of Picard's imagination just like his make-believe family.
Whether or not Kirk entered in a different time matters not, what matters is whether he was still inside it by the time Picard entered. He was.
Also, each of the characters entered and left the Nexus exactly once, and their bodies physically entered and left. Why then, when Picard and Kirk left the Nexus, did Picard not see his younger self on the planet with Soran? (There should have been two Picards, like there were two Janeways in "Endgame.")
Did Picard "quantum leap" into his own younger body? If so, whose body did Kirk "quantum leap" into? Not only is that method of time travel inconsistent with any other episode, it is inconsistent within the movie itself.
This is where the Nexus itself causes problems - and it is not a problem with time travel, or inconsistancy in time travel itself. This is a problem with the esoteric concept of the Nexus itself - and plotholes in the movie. Not time travel itself. I am indeed of the opinion that the Nexus - not time travel - put Picard in his old body, or merged the two.
(And after Soran entered the Nexus with Picard, he is still free to leave the Nexus at any time, just as Picard and Kirk were, so he could pop out again at any time in the past or future. They never really defeated him.)
His entire goal was to get in the Nexus, why would come back out? And they DID defeat Soran; the second time around.
And since you seem to have an answer for everything, 3D Master, why did the Enterprise beam the captured Air Force officers back into their younger bodies as they returned to the future in "Tomorrow is Yesterday"? How would that be any different from, say, just dumping them out an airlock, since their younger selves would still be alive in the past, and would never be aboard the Enterprise in the future? What was accomplished by beaming them during the slingshot? That whole scenario does not seem consistent with picking up a couple whales and taking them to the future.
Because they're not evil bastards who kill people.
1. The rift originates in the future, the following sequence of events happens: Enterprise-C gets destroyed, we have peace. Rift opens. Enterprise-C goes to the future and is not destroyed. Time changes, there is now war. Enterprise-C goes back to the past carrying Tasha Yar. She survives the destruction, gets captured, and we are now in a third time line that is the same on the Federation and Klingon side of the equation.
2. The rift originates in the past, the following sequence of events happens: Enterprise-C enters the rift and arrives in a war-torn future. Enterprise-C takes Yar on board. Enterprise-C returns, gets destroyed defending a Klingon outpost. We are now in a timeline that has peace between the Klingons and the Federation.
But if there was ever a state where the hole didn't exist in the timeline (speaking from an outside perspective, of course), then the Ent-C didn't fall into the hole, of course. I don't see how case 2 is possible unless you're going for outright predestination as far as the hole existing. Though I guess this distinction makes no difference. From outside the timeline all events are predestined.
No, no predestination at all, because there's no time travel involved to create the rift. The rift simply originates at the Ent-C time and it goes through it. Over and done. A Predestination paradox only occurs when you travel back in time, and instead of changing it, change nothing.
The poster below already answered this.
And in all those many times through the loop, Future Picard didn't find any way to break the loop? Find any way to convince himself that he was telling the truth? Try not getting into the damn shuttle just once? This is your position?
Yes.
But in the nexus time WASN'T FLOWING. Kirk was jumping from one moment to another with no Linear cohesion. He wasn't moving forward he was jumping all around. He was at point A and then suddenly at point c without ever moving through point b...
And in between the jumps, Kirk was walking, talking, baking eggs. Time FLOWED. Whether Kirk's desires made new things pop up is besides the point. If no time flowed at all; Kirk would not be able to make even a single step, he wouldn't even be able to formulate a single thought.
