timeline differences

[JarodRussell]

Well, neither Countdown nor the tie-in literature are canon (and I believe Orci was already ignoring half of the comic in the Trekmovie talkbacks). All we know is that Future Spock tried to create a black hole in the 24th century, nothing more, nothing less. No information about the universe he came from. He could be mirror universe Spock for all we know (except for the goatee).

 

[USS Excelsior]

Neither timelines in the new movie are the Prime Universe. Both of them use a different Stardate system.

 

[JarodRussell]

Both of them use a different Stardate system.

Ha, you're right, haven't thought of that.

 

[BenRoethig]

Neither timelines in the new movie are the Prime Universe. Both of them use a different Stardate system.

Its a recon of the stardate system.

 

[JarodRussell]

Neither timelines in the new movie are the Prime Universe. Both of them use a different Stardate system.

Its a recon of the stardate system.

A really, really, really, really awfully bad one. Stardate = Earth years A.D. ... Geez.

Why would all those alien species in the Federation agree on a time system that's only related to a myth of one of Earth's cultures and the speed at which it orbits around the sun?

 

[darkshadow0001]

this is something ive thought about. I know that jj abram's trek is set in an alternate timeline, due to the romulans coming back in time. What is the difference between that, and "Yesterday's Enterprise" where the timeline was altered by the enterprise-C? in that episode the prime timeline was messed up by that. so doesnt the same logic apply with the romulans going back in time? messing up the timeline? not creating an alternate timeline? or are they both alternate timelines? im probably thinking about this too hard. lol

It's just another alternate time-line. A really good Star Trek episode on alternate timelines is TNG's episode "Parrelels" or something of that nature. I think I have it mispelled, but it was during season seven. It was one of my favorites.

 

[Dar70]

In YESTERDAY'S ENTERPRISE, at the end it's suggested Guinan has, on some level, an awareness of what's happened, and out of the blue asks Geordi to tell her about Tasha Yar.

We saw at the start of the episode that the Enterprise D's bridge and its crew were altered by the arrival of Enterprise C (and the timeline thus being altered).

These two events in themselves are in step with earlier Trek, such as CITY ON THE EDGE OF FOREVER, which show that in the TREK universe, history CAN be changed, and a single timeline is thus altered.

A new separate timeline is NOT created.

If that were the case, then Kirk and the others in CITY never actually returned to their Enterprise, but rather an Enterprise in a newly created third timeline. I do not accept this idea, and you'd have expected Spock to have said something if it were the case.

No.

In the TREK universe, history can be changed and even restored, but new timelines are NOT created.

This means one of two things-

1) The original timeline HAS indeed been overwritted by the events in JJ Trek, or

2) JJ Trek is a parallel universe to the original, which has now had its past altered. Were Spock and Nero from the original Trek universe we know, or were they from the JJ Trek universe? I dunno.

I like to think it's the latter, so that not only does the original universe remain in place, the JJ-verse may even have "our" Spock in it (possibly unaware he's in the wrong universe, since differences could be due to the changes 25 years prior to his arrival).

Totally agree with you. This NUtrek has totally put another divide in fans. Now we have fans saying all the damn time travel eps created new universes since TOS. Which I do not buy and it was never the intention of the original creators of those episodes.


This whole discussion is one of the major reasons why I hate the new film and pretty much will abandon Trek from that film on. They left it ambiguous so they could do whatever they want and have Nimoy in it as well. In doing so they pretty much screwed everything up IMO. Trek had enough continuity problems to start with. In creating this NUTREK, and not fully explaining themselves they in effect opened a whole new can of worms. Bigger than the smoothy/Bumpy klingon debates. Fans will be debating over this for years sadly. Thankfully I have jettisoned this Trek from my canon and will only concentrate on all the series.

Would have been much better if they just restarted a new movie series on its own. No connections whatsoever to previous Trek.

 

[USS Excelsior]

Neither timelines in the new movie are the Prime Universe. Both of them use a different Stardate system.

Its a recon of the stardate system.

A really, really, really, really awfully bad one. Stardate = Earth years A.D. ... Geez.

Why would all those alien species in the Federation agree on a time system that's only related to a myth of one of Earth's cultures and the speed at which it orbits around the sun?

That means we can have a Stardate system now! And not only is it a bad one being Earth centric but also because a whole year is only represented by 100 digits, it would be more accurate just sticking with the usual calendar.

 

[Devon]

A really, really, really, really awfully bad one.

Not even remotely close in the slightest sense of the imagination.

Why would all those alien species in the Federation agree on a time system that's only related to a myth of one of Earth's cultures and the speed at which it orbits around the sun?

Doesn't matter. Why would the federation agree to a stardate system that is related to a flawed formula presented by the show's writers as with past Trek?

This stardate system actually has some consistency to it. The merit of its origins has no relevancy.

 

[USS Excelsior]

I would have gone with the TNG version of 1000 points per year starting from 2161. So TOS would start with 103000 and TNG with 203000.

 

[Devon]

Totally agree with you. This NUtrek has totally put another divide in fans.

Yeah. That divide being split down the middle... of the 80th percentile.

Now we have fans saying all the damn time travel eps created new universes since TOS. Which I do not buy and it was never the intention of the original creators of those episodes.

Doesn't matter.

This whole discussion is one of the major reasons why I hate the new film

Then avoid the discussions. You only do it to yourself.

and pretty much will abandon Trek from that film on.

Buh-bye!

Thankfully I have jettisoned this Trek from my canon and will only concentrate on all the series.

Then I take it this will be the last you will post here?

Would have been much better if they just restarted a new movie series on its own. No connections whatsoever to previous Trek.

Maybe for you personally. But the fact this is one of the best reviewed Trek films from fans, the public, critics, as well as being one of the most financially successful would suggest that you're only guessing as to what would be best for you personally, not what is best for the franchise.

And fans who were more concerned about what was best for them is partially what brought the franchise down when the creators tried to pander to their needs. The first case of this is the letter writing campaign that brought TOS for a third season. And because of that, here is what we got folks....

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avTfiRccYIA[/yt]

 

[Dar70]

^^^^I have abandoned watching nutrek but not discussions of it. Sorry if that bother you. I can voice my displeasure of NUTrek all I want. This new movie appealed to non trek fans which is one reason it was so well recieved. But many longstanding fans do not like it and many do. But thankfully this nuTrek will never last as long as old. It will eventually die out.

 

[Devon]

^^^^I have abandoned watching nutrek but not discussions of it.

There's not much for you to discuss then if it's "discussions like this" that you "hate."

Sorry if that bother you. I can voice my displeasure of NUTrek all I want.

Yes, but you would be left with hardly any reasons to. In that case, you would be just complaining for the sake of complaining when making comments like "I hate this movie and I hate discussions like this." Sorry bud, this is the Trek XI side of the forum and "discussions like this" will happen. Don't complain.

This new movie appealed to non trek fans which is one reason it was so well recieved.

....right...

But many longstanding fans do not like it and many do.

That "many" dissatisfied fans you speak of isn't as much as you wish it to be. 8.5/10 fans on average, as per Trek polls, enjoyed the film. We can safely assume that many more fans enjoyed this film than recent incarnations of Trek.

But thankfully this nuTrek will never last as long as old. It will eventually die out.

Just as the old one began to die out? This seems to be the "new" approach that some critics are trying to approach this film with since they are left with little else. This follows a long line of such comments as "Dewey Wins!," "Rock N' Roll is on its way out" & lastly "This film will flop." And the epic fail train keeps building!

 

[Therin of Andor]

^ Countdown is definitely incompatible with Trek literature, because Countdown is in the same universe as ST Online.

That doesn't make it incompatible. We won't know if Pocket stuff will embrace "Countdown" until a story is set in that time period.

Pocket and ST Online are incompatible, yes, but perhaps they will end up having "Countdown" in common.

 

[BenRoethig]

Neither timelines in the new movie are the Prime Universe. Both of them use a different Stardate system.

Its a recon of the stardate system.

A really, really, really, really awfully bad one. Stardate = Earth years A.D. ... Geez.

Why would all those alien species in the Federation agree on a time system that's only related to a myth of one of Earth's cultures and the speed at which it orbits around the sun?

1) Starfleet has been shown to be very much Earth dominated.
2) The same reason non-Christians around the world have, its the standard being used.

 

[JarodRussell]

A really, really, really, really awfully bad one.

Not even remotely close in the slightest sense of the imagination.

Why would all those alien species in the Federation agree on a time system that's only related to a myth of one of Earth's cultures and the speed at which it orbits around the sun?

Doesn't matter. Why would the federation agree to a stardate system that is related to a flawed formula presented by the show's writers as with past Trek?

This stardate system actually has some consistency to it. The merit of its origins has no relevancy.

LOL.

 

[T'Cal]

*My point is that the Borg affected the timeline and it wasn't corrected completely as we are led to believe.

There's no evidence of that.

I say there is. I deduce that ENT is evidence of that.

Same principle. They're both altered (new) timelines. There are many in Trek. Another big one IMO is in the movie FC. Once they go back to 2063, they changed everything. Upon returning, things are altered but not so drastically that the crew notices, not unlike in Yesterday's Enterprise. They believe that they've corrected whatever damage the Borg did but they didn't. They instead went back in time and changed events to what they they they should be. That whole story sets things up for ENT. I always thought it would've been cool if in NEM we saw an NX-01 displayed in the case of model ships in the OBS lounge. We know that Captain Archer's father Henry worked with Cochrane on the warp 5 engine that powers the NX-01. I believe it was Cochrane who suggested that the ship be named Enterprise as an homage to Picard and crew and their ship since they helped Zephram so much. That's why we never heard of the NX-01 Enterprise; it was probably called something else until the E-E went back in time and influenced its name.

First Contact was predestination paradox, not an altered timeline. Nothing changed. The distress call from the drones that survived the destruction of the sphere caused the Federation to be on the Borg's radar.

I disagree. It was Q propelling the E-D into system J-25 which caused the UFP to be on the Borg's radar.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It was Q propelling the E-D into system J-25 which caused the UFP to be on the Borg's radar.

The Borg cube was already heading in Earth's direction when he did that.

 

[Iamnotspock]

That's why we never heard of the NX-01 Enterprise; it was probably called something else until the E-E went back in time and influenced its name.

No it wasn't, Riker and Troi visited NX-01, in the last episode of ENT, from the Ent-D, so it existed well before FC. You just never heard about it because the show hadn't aired yet.

That doesn't matter. We're dealing with a possible effect of time travel and not, therefore, a linear progression of events. Assuming that there's something to T'Cal's theory (which is something I've thought of too), then just because the timeline didn't diverge until FC it doesn't mean that These Are The Voyages can't be set at an earlier point in the alternate timeline. After all, in that episode we're seeing the TNG era from the point-of-view of it being the future of ENT. In fact, that may go some way to explaining any discrepancies between The Pegasus and TATV

As for the Borg thing, for anyone who doesn't remember, of course it was the original intention that Q's intervention in Q Who put the Federation on their radar, but VOY's Scorpion and Dark Frontier retconned that by having the Hansens assimilated several years before that.

ENT tried to explain that in the episode Regeneration with the retcon that some surviving drones from FC sent out a signal to the Delta Quadrant, which Archer predicted would reach there in about 200 years...

This explained why the Borg were active in Federation space before Q Who, which had already been suggested in episodes such as The Neutral Zone, with them destroying Federation colonies.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

I hate to flog a dead horse here, but Alternate Realities are absolutely Canon in Star Trek: Mirror Universe? Parallels? The Alternative Factor?

The move deliberately created an alternate reality within it's narrative so that it could get the crew together in a more cinematically friendly way, and so that the producers could use the conceit to make the changes deemed necessary.

The time travel in this movie simply reflects current scientific theories about Time Travel, and thus follows Star Trek's own tradition of adapting current thinking in Science and Technology.

Simply put, an Alternate Reality was created in 2233 when the Narada emerged from the "Lightning Storm In Space" and wreaked havoc.

This is on-screen, canon fact, regardless of whether one approves or disapproves.