timeline differences

[MapleJack]

2) JJ Trek is a parallel universe to the original, which has now had its past altered. Were Spock and Nero from the original Trek universe we know, or were they from the JJ Trek universe? I dunno.

I like to think it's the latter, so that not only does the original universe remain in place, the JJ-verse may even have "our" Spock in it (possibly unaware he's in the wrong universe, since differences could be due to the changes 25 years prior to his arrival).

I think this also as the Kelvin seems to better fit an altered parallel universe. Considering the scale of the ships, the Romulan ship seems to fit in relation to the Kelvin and other Starfleet ships as the Scimitar or Valdore type Warbird would be to say an Oberth class ship. Also, all the ships in the recent film seem to use the exact same warp drive type system, as in the white light exhaust.

The new film works best and cleanest as a parallel universe to the Prime, with the elder Spock traveling back to meet himself and try to fix the problem.

If anything, all the Trek realities stem from our own. The Prime would best be summed up, I think, as diverging from ours in the 1960s. It was an interpretation of the 23rd Century from that perspective. The new film's continuity diverges from now with an interpretation of the 23rd Century from today's perspective.

So until a future film addresses the changes with the Kelvin compared to what was seen in TOS and ENT...

Also, I prefer a new universe, as the time line could be cleaned up in a sense that things such as a third world war can be abandoned and the Eugenics wars can also be or at least moved to a far later date. For this matter, the adventures of Archer and his crew could have happened only a generation or so earlier, as in the early 23rd century. Perhaps human warp flight happens in a parallel witht he reality of aerial flight? Or something like that?

 

[T'Cal]

They believe that they've corrected whatever damage the Borg did but they didn't. .

Didn't? nine billion borg gone.*

They instead went back in time and changed events to what they they they should be.

Think it was Riker who said that it was possible that it was meant to be that way, they were the reason Cochrane made warp.**

That's why we never heard of the NX-01 Enterprise; it was probably called something else until the E-E went back in time and influenced its name.

No it wasn't, Riker and Troi visited NX-01, in the last episode of ENT, from the Ent-D, so it existed well before FC. You just never heard about it because the show hadn't aired yet.***

*My point is that the Borg affected the timeline and it wasn't corrected completely as we are led to believe.

**I don't remember him saying that, although I've considered that, too. But in FC, as the E-E and crew go back in time, we hear Picard and Riker talk about how the Borg may be trying to interfere with first contact. They made no mention of any historical references to any problems Cochrane had. It was mentioned in an ENT episode (Regeneration, IIRC) that Cochrane mentioned that people from the future had aided him in hid warp flight. That event happened after April 5, 2063 in the timeline altered by the E-E crew. This makes me believe that the events in FC were not a predestination paradox.

***You may have me here! TATV took place pre-FC. My only defense is this episode sucked. Not a good argument, but it's all I've got.

As for the poster who mentioned Archer IV being in episodes that occurred prior to FC, my belief is that if in fact that planet was named for Jonathon Archer, which I do believe was the intent in NEM, that doesn't change anything. Archer was still a great captain, admiral, diplomat, and president of the Federation making him worthy of having a planet named after him regardless of whether his ship was named Enterprise or something else in a different timeline.

 

[USS Excelsior]

Did the Narada actually create a new timeline, or did that timeline always exist exactly the same as the Prime one but happened to just differ from the Narada's appearance also.

Another thing is that the NuEnterprise crew visits the 20th Century in several episodes they'd obviously have to appear in a different universe than the Prime characters.

And there would have to be a NuMirror Universe that corresponds to the NuTrek Universe which would also accommodate the NuCrossovers.

And plus the NuDefiant would have to end up in the NuMirror Universe.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

*My point is that the Borg affected the timeline and it wasn't corrected completely as we are led to believe.

There's no evidence of that.

 

[Kup1986]

Long time lurker, first time post.

But I felt I wanted to chime in on this topic. I think Trek 11 boils down to what you accept as your personal canon. Did First Contact alter the timeline as Braga stated in an interview a few years back, or did the Enterprise crew always go back in time.

If you subscribe to the first to the first theory, then what I am about to post doesn't really matter.

I tend to believe First Contact always happened. In that case, I also believe Spock and Nero went back in time to a different reality than the Prime universe. My main reasoing for this is the insignia on Robau's crew: they used the Delta shield. This logo wasn't adopted for all of Starfleet until TMP, correct?

If FC altered the timeline, then the Delta shield can be considered to be one of those things affected by the timeline change

But in either case: is it safe to say that Nero and Spock did not go to the reality that first appeared in 1966?

Thoughts?

Kup

 

[BenRoethig]

Same principle. They're both altered (new) timelines. There are many in Trek. Another big one IMO is in the movie FC. Once they go back to 2063, they changed everything. Upon returning, things are altered but not so drastically that the crew notices, not unlike in Yesterday's Enterprise. They believe that they've corrected whatever damage the Borg did but they didn't. They instead went back in time and changed events to what they they they should be. That whole story sets things up for ENT. I always thought it would've been cool if in NEM we saw an NX-01 displayed in the case of model ships in the OBS lounge. We know that Captain Archer's father Henry worked with Cochrane on the warp 5 engine that powers the NX-01. I believe it was Cochrane who suggested that the ship be named Enterprise as an homage to Picard and crew and their ship since they helped Zephram so much. That's why we never heard of the NX-01 Enterprise; it was probably called something else until the E-E went back in time and influenced its name.

First Contact was predestination paradox, not an altered timeline. Nothing changed. The distress call from the drones that survived the destruction of the sphere caused the Federation to be on the Borg's radar.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But in either case: is it safe to say that Nero and Spock did not go to the reality that first appeared in 1966?

I don't know about *safe* to say, but it's what I believe. Meaning, Nero and Spock did basically what the TOS Defiant did: They travelled not only to the past, but to the past of a different universe. It would certainly explain why their actions didn't wipe out the prime timeline.

 

[JarodRussell]

The distress call from the drones that survived the destruction of the sphere caused the Federation to be on the Borg's radar.

Although you are correct that nothing changed, there are two things wrong about this statement: the Federation had never been on the radar until Q sent the Enterprise-D into the borg territory. And then the drones were never successful in sending the signal. Picard, Worf and Hawk prevented it, that was the point of that scene.




EVIDENCE that Star Trek: First Contact changed nothing is Voyager and Deep Space Nine. Both shows continue totally unaltered. And Star Trek: Insurrection takes place in the same timeline that VOY and DS9 do.


Enterprise is an anomaly, a show that is about a temporal cold war, a show about a ship that is from the very first episode not where it's supposed to be (Daniels says that more than once). It's not set in the same timeline as TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY and the movies until Insurrection. Nemesis is yet another different timeline because Janeway is an Admiral there, after Future Janeway changed the past (I started a discussion about this recently in the Voyager forum).

 

[The Wormhole]

Something else to consider about the whole Events in First Contact altered the timeline theory. Remember that the first warp 05 capable starship was still named Enterprise in the MU despite there were no Borg travelling back to the 021st century and messing with Cochrane's warp flight.

 

[Nick Ryder]

I dunno about that... the end scene was still the same. I suppose in the MU, FC did happen, but with their MU counterparts maybe. I dunno.

And dude, the 0-number thing is really startin' to get old

 

[The Wormhole]

I dunno about that... the end scene was still the same. I suppose in the MU, FC did happen, but with their MU counterparts maybe. I dunno.

Well, problem with that is by the 24th century Earth wouldn't have been important enough for the Borg to want to assimilate it, let alone go back in time and neutralize it from ever achieving warp capabilities.

And dude, the 0-number thing is really startin' to get old

Seriously? I've spent nearly 03 months away from the Trek 011 forum, and you still thing the zeroes are 0ld?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

the Federation had never been on the radar until Q sent the Enterprise-D into the borg territory.

The Borg cube was already heading in Earth's direction at the time, as per "Q Who?".

And then the drones were never successful in sending the signal. Picard, Worf and Hawk prevented it, that was the point of that scene.

I think they mean ENT's "Regeneration". Those drones *did* succeed in sending out a signal.

As for the possibility of FC happening in the mirror universe: Obviously it did happen, we saw the opening scene of IAMD. But there couldn't have been a mirror Enterprise-E or its crew involved in it, since by the time the Ent-E would have been constructed, the Empire had fallen. So Starfleet no longer exists, therefore, no ship.

 

[David cgc]

the Federation had never been on the radar until Q sent the Enterprise-D into the borg territory.

The Borg cube was already heading in Earth's direction at the time, as per "Q Who?".

And they'd already visited, scooping up all those Romulan colonies along the border.

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

TOS/TNG/DS9/VOYAGER timeline diverges from our timeline at 1966.

STXI timeline diverges from our timeline at 2009.

Super-crazy black hole made by Red Matter that can destroy a planet but doesn't destroy ships, mixed with super-crazy galactic-wide mega nova sent Spock and Nero from the first timeline to the past of the second timeline just like the super-crazy interphase in "The Tholian Web" sent Defiant from that first timeline to the past of the MU timeline.

Works for me.

And yah, I used "timeline" and "universe" interchangeably here. Tough cookies unless you want to call Data a liar.

 

[Oso Blanco]

I think that the events in FC changed the timeline, and Enterprise is following this new timeline.

The way I see it, XI is also set in this altered timeline. This would also explain why Jim Kirk doesn't have a brother as well as some other oddities that can't be explained away by Nero's interference.

 

[Wes-Cutting]

Having read that graphic novel thing they made as a prequil to the new movie I described what happened as so:

The Trekverse as we know it is represented as X.
The Timeline the Spock/Nero come from is reality Y. (I say that because in the short graphic novel Data was Captain of the Enterprise nearly 8 years after Nemesis.)

So Spock and Nero using crazy timetravel/reality-jumping blackhole technology come from reality Y into reality X and screw up the timeline. By doing X+Y we end up with reality Z. This new reality Z can be whatever any one wants it to be.



As for ENT, I always thought that we never really mentioned it in TNG because it was not really there for the Federation and it didn't have the classic 'NCC-***' registration.

 

[JarodRussell]

While you mention the NCC registration... Kelvin has a leading 0 to create a 4 digit registry, why? The Grissom in ST III had only 3 digits.

Different timeline! Different timeline!

 

[Kup1986]

Having read that graphic novel thing they made as a prequil to the new movie I described what happened as so:

The Trekverse as we know it is represented as X.
The Timeline the Spock/Nero come from is reality Y. (I say that because in the short graphic novel Data was Captain of the Enterprise nearly 8 years after Nemesis.)

So Spock and Nero using crazy timetravel/reality-jumping blackhole technology come from reality Y into reality X and screw up the timeline. By doing X+Y we end up with reality Z. This new reality Z can be whatever any one wants it to be.



As for ENT, I always thought that we never really mentioned it in TNG because it was not really there for the Federation and it didn't have the classic 'NCC-***' registration.

Why would Countdown be a different reality? They stated that Data was rebord via his memories in B4.

Kup

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Countdown is definitely incompatible with Trek literature, because Countdown is in the same universe as ST Online.

 

[Wes-Cutting]

Having read that graphic novel thing they made as a prequil to the new movie I described what happened as so:

The Trekverse as we know it is represented as X.
The Timeline the Spock/Nero come from is reality Y. (I say that because in the short graphic novel Data was Captain of the Enterprise nearly 8 years after Nemesis.)

So Spock and Nero using crazy timetravel/reality-jumping blackhole technology come from reality Y into reality X and screw up the timeline. By doing X+Y we end up with reality Z. This new reality Z can be whatever any one wants it to be.



As for ENT, I always thought that we never really mentioned it in TNG because it was not really there for the Federation and it didn't have the classic 'NCC-***' registration.

Why would Countdown be a different reality? They stated that Data was rebord via his memories in B4.

Kup

That also doesn't work for the fact that the books throw that idea out. Geordi makes the effort to restore Data through B4 but the latter's neural net can't handle all the information. So I assumed it was different because it did not follow what was already established by other written Trek.