Spoilers Time travel issues S2

[BillJ]

If canon shouldn't be ignored, how does that work?

Canon has no rooster in this fight. James R. Kirk and James T. Kirk are both canon, they both appeared on screen. Continuity and canon are different animals, and continuity is very fluid where Star Trek is concerned.

If it is in 2260s you either have to ignore that EW happens in 1990s or it happens 200 years ago.

You forgot the third option: that everything is you mention is "right". I have books sitting on my shelf, officially licensed, that state TOS takes place in the 2190's. You just have to get used to the idea that the writers never took this stuff as seriously as we do.

From my perspective, TOS was first in, so it is the last out.

 

[Farscape One]

With a franchise as old as STAR TREK, it's impossible to get everything accurate. Even DOCTOR WHO takes liberties with the details.

The older a franchise gets, the more difficult it is to keep all the details together. Particularly when you have different writers for each generation. It's basically impossible.

Even BABYLON 5, which was almost entirely written by one man (about 93 out of 110 episodes), got a couple little things mixed up. (Though honestly, they were mostly due to production issues than anything else. JMS and B5 is probably the only example you'll find of having pretty much everything tying up nicely together.)

 

[Longinus]

Canon has no rooster in this fight. James R. Kirk and James T. Kirk are both canon, they both appeared on screen. Continuity and canon are different animals, and continuity is very fluid where Star Trek is concerned.



You forgot the third option: that everything is you mention is "right". I have books sitting on my shelf, officially licensed, that state TOS takes place in the 2190's. You just have to get used to the idea that the writers never took this stuff as seriously as we do.

From my perspective, TOS was first in, so it is the last out.

Right. So you think TOS happens in 2190s. Fair enough. This would mean original cast movies contradict it. And TNG contradicts it even more.

If you don't care about the overall continuity, that's fine, but a lot of people do, and this discussion exists in context of the newest ongoing instalment to that continuity.

 

[Shazam!]

The Word of God says Time's Arrow never happened in this timeline, so it never happened.
If the creator of the story says it didn't happen, it didn't happen. Until the next creator comes along and says otherwise.

Presumably then, neither did Little Green Men so there was never a Roswell incident in this timeline.

 

[BillJ]

If you don't care about the overall continuity, that's fine, but a lot of people do, and this discussion exists in context of the newest ongoing instalment to that continuity.

It obviously isn't about caring about continuity, if it was, you wouldn't be so eager to throw out data points from earlier shows. It really isn't about continuity, it is about you needing to feel like they are tailoring the shows to what you want out of Star Trek.

 

[Farscape One]

We should also remember that this season, like virtually every show in now is doing, has an arc, and each episode is only a piece of that arc. Maybe the "Time's Arrow" issue will be dealt with by the end of the season.

Had this been a standalone based episode on a series that is more standalone based, we would have reason to call the writers out on being forgetful. But because of the whole era of arc heavy seasons, we can't really do that and be right.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Perhaps the punk somehow has temporal psychosis and recalls events from multiple timelines at once. Maybe Braxton's timeship was leaking antichronitons and the punk's mother (while pregnant) helped Henry Starling move it into hiding in the 60's. Going undiagnosed (it is after all, 2024) is why his life hasn't much progressed in 40 years.

 

[Longinus]

It obviously isn't about caring about continuity, if it was, you wouldn't be so eager to throw out data points from earlier shows. It really isn't about continuity, it is about you needing to feel like they are tailoring the shows to what you want out of Star Trek.

Continuity implies that some sort of vaguely logical sequence of events and history exists. This means that if there are contradictory elements, we must jettison something, or there is no continuity. Again:

1) WWIII was in the mid 21st century.
2) Eugenics Wars were the last human world war.
3) Eugenics Wars happened in the 1990's.
4) Eugenics Wars happened two centuries ago from the events of 'Space Seed'.
5) Kirk's historic five-year mission takes place in 2260s.

All of these literally cannot be true. This simply is a fact. Jettisoning the 1990s date and saying that WWIII and EW were the same conflict reconciles all the rest.

 

[BillJ]

All of these literally cannot be true. This simply is a fact. Jettisoning the 1990s date and saying that WWIII and EW were the same conflict reconciles all the rest.

That just it, it doesn't need to be reconciled. It is all part of the story. Just like Admiral Bennett's comment that the Eugenics Wars took place 200 years prior (2170's) in Deep Space Nine. The writer admits its an error, but it is canon all the same.

It is all part of "Star Trek". It doesn't need to be "fixed", if you can't tolerate minor inconsistencies then Trek may not be the franchise you seek, because it is chock full of inconsistencies going all the way back to the beginning. From Trelane looking nine hundred years into Earth's past, placing the show in the 27th century to Data's Class of '78. From the NX-01 being faster than Voyager, to the TOS Enterprise being faster than all of them per canon statements from episodes.

 

[Longinus]

That just it, it doesn't need to be reconciled. It is all part of the story. Just like Admiral Bennett's comment that the Eugenics Wars took place 200 years prior (2170's) in Deep Space Nine. The writer admits its an error, but it is canon all the same.

It is all part of "Star Trek". It doesn't need to be "fixed", if you can't tolerate minor inconsistencies then Trek may not be the franchise you seek, because it is chock full of inconsistencies going all the way back to the beginning. From Trelane looking nine hundred years into Earth's past, placing the show in the 27th century to Data's Class of '78. From the NX-01 being faster than Voyager, to the TOS Enterprise being faster than all of them per canon statements from episodes.

Right. So you don't care about there being a continuity. I get it. But a lot of people care about it.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Canon has no rooster in this fight. James R. Kirk and James T. Kirk are both canon, they both appeared on screen. Continuity and canon are different animals, and continuity is very fluid where Star Trek is concerned.

Yep.

 

[BillJ]

Right. So you don't care about there being a continuity. I get it. But a lot of people care about it.

I care about the the thought and the work the people involved put into these shows. None of it deserves to be dismissed because some folks can't wrap their minds around the idea that nothing's perfect.

 

[Longinus]

I care about the the thought and the work the people involved put into these shows. None of it deserves to be dismissed because some folks can't wrap their minds around the idea that nothing's perfect.

Right. But you don't care about continuity. Because if nothing can be 'dismissed' regarding continuity, then the continuity cannot exist, because, indeed as you note, nothing is perfect and contradictions happen. And accepting that they do is not disrespecting the thoughts and work of the people involved.

So if you don't care about continuity, why you butt in to discussions about it? If they would say in Picard that Eugenics Wars happen in 2060s, then what would it matter to you? You don't care about earlier contradictions either, it's just one more to that pile.

 

[BillJ]

So if you don't care about continuity, why you butt in to discussions about it?

The discussion is actually about time travel.

Because if nothing can be 'dismissed' regarding continuity, then the continuity cannot exist, because, indeed as you note, nothing is perfect and contradictions happen.

Continuity has existed just fine as it really should, as a knitting of the broad strokes, with the Eugenics Wars happening from 1992-96, the NX-01 being faster than Voyager and Ross saying that the Eugenics Wars happened in the 2170's. People have learned how to live with it, in all its imperfection.

Data being from the Class of '78 has not caused the universe to implode. Nor is there any reason for these details to be rewritten.

Continuity doesn't drive my affection for the franchise, but I know much of it as well as anyone here, a byproduct of watching this stuff for 46 years.

 

[Longinus]

The discussion is actually about time travel.



Continuity has existed just fine as it really should, as a knitting of the broad strokes, with the Eugenics Wars happening from 1992-96, the NX-01 being faster than Voyager and Ross saying that the Eugenics Wars happened in the 2170's. People have learned how to live with it, in all its imperfection.

Data being from the Class of '78 has not caused the universe to implode. Nor is there any reason for these details to be rewritten.

Continuity doesn't drive my affection for the franchise, but I know much of it as well as anyone here, a byproduct of watching this stuff for 46 years.

Right. So then you have no reason to complain if they at some point show EW happening in 2060s.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Ross saying that the Eugenics Wars happened in the 2170's.

If you're referring to Admiral Bennett's line from "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" - that line has already been written off as a mistake. A writing error. So it's not binding to canon/continuity.

 

[BillJ]

Right. So then you have no reason to complain if they at some point show EW happening in 2060s.

You mean other than overwriting the work of an author from 50 years ago, who put a lot of time and thought into his story?

I think they should really let it all hang out. The Eugenics Wars should last from 2060 to 2569. Why not? What someone wrote in the past shouldn't matter, should it?

If you're referring to Admiral Bennett's line from "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" - that line has already been written off as a mistake. A writing error. So it's not binding to canon/continuity.

I mentioned it was a mistake in an earlier post. Doesn't change that if its on screen, its canon.

That just it, it doesn't need to be reconciled. It is all part of the story. Just like Admiral Bennett's comment that the Eugenics Wars took place 200 years prior (2170's) in Deep Space Nine. The writer admits its an error, but it is canon all the same.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I mentioned it was a mistake in an earlier post. Doesn't change that if its on screen, its canon.

Whatever.

 

[BillJ]

Whatever.

I love how people love to rub the rules of something in other people's faces, until the rule works against them...

 

[fireproof78]

What makes it non binding? That's rather arbitrary.