Spoilers Time travel issues S2

[Longinus]

You mean other than overwriting the work of an author from 50 years ago, who put a lot of time and thought into his story?

But you mentioned all the other contradiction you seemed to be fine with... So this is just crating one more. Why is is any more overwriting anything, than TOS movies establishing that the five-year mission took place in 2260s, thus 'overwriting' several things established in TOS (some of which already contradicted each other)?

I think they should really let it all hang out. The Eugenics Wars should last from 2060 to 2569. Why not? What someone wrote in the past shouldn't matter, should it?

I mean there literally is no timing of Eugenics Wars that wouldn't contradict something established in the past shows. If they ever say anything concrete about its timing again, they will contradict something. I absolutely think what people wrote in the past should matter, but there is no need to get hung up on technical minutiae that already contradicts itself. The best way to respect the past writers it so take the intent of their writing seriously, and try to treat it holistically.

 

[BillJ]

What makes it non binding? That's rather arbitrary.

Thing is, you don't need canon or continuity to know when something is simply a mistake. When Ross (or Bennett or Whoever) said the Eugenics Wars was 200 years ago in DS9, my mind immediately knew it was an honest to god mistake. I don't need to come running down the alley foaming at the mount about how it violated some sacred document, I don't need it changed just because. It was a mistake. Spock said the Eugenics Wars happened in 1992-96, TOS has said it was two hundred years in the future so it exists at the tail end of the 22nd century, good enough. Two hundred years actually also comes up in "Tomorrow is Yesterday". They don't settle on the 23rd century until TMP advertising and novel, then in canon/continuity with TWoK. To me, none of it invalidates the 1992-96 date, two hundred years is rounded from roughly 250, just like Kirk and Khan both round roughly 18 years to 15 in TWoK.

None of it breaks the story or the illusion of the universe, and should be left how it is written until the franchise does a full blown reboot of the material.

 

[BillJ]

than TOS movies establishing that the five-year mission took place in 2260s

That was actually established by working backwards from the 2364 date given in "The Neutral Zone". TNG starts 78 years after the 23rd century portion of The Voyage Home, which gave it the date of 2286. Then they worked backwards from there.

Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise has the movies taking place in the early-23rd century.

 

[fireproof78]

Thing is, you don't need canon or continuity to know when something is simply a mistake. When Ross (or Bennett or Whoever) said the Eugenics Wars was 200 years ago in DS9, my mind immediately knew it was an honest to god mistake. I don't need to come running down the alley foaming at the mount about how it violated some sacred document, I don't need it changed just because. It was a mistake. Spock said the Eugenics Wars happened in 1992-96, TOS has said it was two hundred years in the future so it exists at the tail end of the 22nd century, good enough. Two hundred years actually also comes up in "Tomorrow is Yesterday". They don't settle on the 23rd century until TMP advertising and novel, then in canon/continuity with TWoK. To me, none of it invalidates the 1992-96 date, two hundred years is rounded from roughly 250, just like Kirk and Khan both round roughly 18 years to 15 in TWoK.

None of it breaks the story or the illusion of the universe, and should be left how it is written until the franchise does a full blown reboot of the material.

Agreed. The broader strokes of the timeline are important to me, over the exact dates.

More my curiosity is how do we treat these points. Do they exist simultaneously as points of contradiction? My inclination would be yes, because even in real world history we know that people mess things up, round up, down, estimate, based upon best information.

 

[BillJ]

More my curiosity is how do we treat these points. Do they exist simultaneously as points of contradiction? My inclination would be yes, because even in real world history we know that people mess things up, round up, down, estimate, based upon best information.

I guess I would take it on a situation by situation basis. With something having a hard date, whether the 1992-96 Eugenics Wars or the 2364 in TNG taking precedent over 15, 100, 200, 300 hundred years ago.

Of course, as this discussion shows, MMV.

 

[Longinus]

That was actually established by working backwards from the 2364 date given in "The Neutral Zone". TNG starts 78 years after the 23rd century portion of The Voyage Home, which gave it the date of 2286. Then they worked backwards from there.

Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise has the movies taking place in the early-23rd century.

Sure. But in tWoK, '23rd century' appears in caption and a bottle of Romulan ale bottled in 2283 is mentioned.

 

[Longinus]

Agreed. The broader strokes of the timeline are important to me, over the exact dates.

More my curiosity is how do we treat these points. Do they exist simultaneously as points of contradiction? My inclination would be yes, because even in real world history we know that people mess things up, round up, down, estimate, based upon best information.

I fully agree, and that's exactly to me the context of EW and it's relation to human history is more important, and I don't mind if the exact date would be retconned.

 

[BillJ]

Sure. But in tWoK, '23rd century' appears in caption and a bottle of Romulan ale bottled in 2283 is mentioned.

Books of the time took it as the early-23rd century and the 2283 as a Romulan date. Because of the references of TOS being two hundred years in the future. TNG rewrote continuity and all assumptions around the dating.

You want to talk about TOS taking place at the tail end of the 22nd century or the mid/late 23rd, I can do both because I've been through both dating schemes in my time as a fan. Which is why canon and continuity don't much matter to me, just tell me good stories.

 

[fireproof78]

I fully agree, and that's exactly to me the context of EW and it's relation to human history is more important, and I don't mind if the exact date would be retconned.

I don't even treat as a retcon so much as a clarification. And adding to the picture and letting them live side by side is fine.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Books of the time took it as the early-23rd century and the 2283 as a Romulan date.

2283 as a Romulan date? Seriously? When it was only ever said by one human character (Kirk) to another (McCoy)?

Yeah, yeah, I know it was Romulan ale, but come on. I doubt Romulan dating systems would even be that well known in Federation territory. Besides, wasn't the lable on the bottle in Federation Standard?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And I just thought of another thing:

If the 2024 in PIC is a different past...then (even if the crew prevent the point of divergence) how can it possibly lead to the same future?

 

[Tuskin38]

And I just thought of another thing:

If the 2024 in PIC is a different past...then (even if the crew prevent the point of divergence) how can it possibly lead to the same future?

Because all the future time travel will be restored.

 

[BillJ]

And I just thought of another thing:

If the 2024 in PIC is a different past...then (even if the crew prevent the point of divergence) how can it possibly lead to the same future?

That past would be wiped out, replaced by the timeline with various interference from the future.

 

[Longinus]

That past would be wiped out, replaced by the timeline with various interference from the future.

But that would also wipe out the events that lead to restoring the timeline...

 

[BillJ]

But that would also wipe out the events that lead to restoring the timeline...

Tough to have it both ways. One of the timelines should cease to exist once whatever event is “fixed”.

 

[Farscape One]

In a way, they are going to "TUVIX" the timeline...

 

[Annorax849]

Though then you have DS9 Past Tense which is even more confusing

Timeline A: Originally Gabriel Bell is part of the riots, that was the history Sisko knew.

Timeline B: The moment that Gabriel Bell is killed saving Sisko, the timeline instantly changes in the 24th Century around the Defiant. (this is why I believe Gabriel Bell did participate in the original timeline and it isn't a pre-destination paradox)

Timeline C?: When Sisko takes Bell's place, the timeline goes back to normal, except Bell's picture being replaced with Sisko's in the history books. Timeline changes around the Defiant again. So it didn't split into an alternate reality like the Kelvin Movies, but overwrote the Prime Universe.

Which especially made no sense, since there was no reason for Timeline B to happen. Sisko saved the day without help from anyone from a different future iirc, so the timeline went straight from A to C.

Somebody once said it was like the family picture in Back to the Future, but even that at least had an influence from the future affecting Marty's actions.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Somebody once said it was like the family picture in Back to the Future, but even that at least had an influence from the future affecting Marty's actions.

The problem with that is that we never saw Federation records of Gabriel Bell that didn't look like Sisko. So there's no proof that the "original" Bell ever led the riots. For all we know, it was always Sisko, and he was always destined to do it.

I mean, the DS9 crew returned to the same future they left, didn't they? If the original Bell had taken part in the riots, and then been replaced by Sisko who had to copy Bell's actions, then the timeline would still have changed, due to the butterfly effect. Even the slightest change has huge ramifications. There were none.

 

[Tuskin38]

The problem with that is that we never saw Federation records of Gabriel Bell that didn't look like Sisko. So there's no proof that the "original" Bell ever led the riots. For all we know, it was always Sisko, and he was always destined to do it.

I mean, the DS9 crew returned to the same future they left, didn't they? If the original Bell had taken part in the riots, and then been replaced by Sisko who had to copy Bell's actions, then the timeline would still have changed, due to the butterfly effect. Even the slightest change has huge ramifications. There were none.

The proof is that the Timeline only changed around the Defiant after he died.

When Bell is killed, the next time we see the Defiant the timeline has changed around them.

The timeline didn't change the moment the away team went into the past, it only changed after Bell died.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

But that doesn't answer my point about the butterfly effect.

If there was a timeline when the original Bell was Bell, and Sisko had to take over later and copy everything he did, the timeline would still have changed. Even if Sisko copied Bell's actions and words down to the letter, that alone would have caused a change. It didn't.