Spoilers Thunderbolts* grade and discussion thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
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It's a pretty fast title change. But there's a lot of money in a name like Avengers.
BTW. Not sure if it was mentioned but the after credits scene was shot by the Russo Brothers 4 weeks ago and differs from the original which would have had Sam trying to recruit Bucky to the real Avergers.
BTW. Not sure if it was mentioned but the after credits scene was shot by the Russo Brothers 4 weeks ago and differs from the original which would have had Sam trying to recruit Bucky to the real Avergers.
Nice to see Disney reusing the "Benedict Cumberbatch isn't playing Khan" marketing gimmick.
Or the "Tobey and Andrew definitely aren't in No Way Home" schtick
Yeah, it came up a page or two ago.
Speaking of which, for a long time, I had wondered how Sam's absence here (at least on the Bucky side of things) would work. There isn't any need for Sam (and not just because he isn't a broken merc with loads of trauma) and ultimately his absence allows Bucky to have his own group of compatriots, which is a nice set-up for potential conflict between the two of them as we saw in the post-credits scene (albeit without Sam present). I'm curious to see that dynamic played out in the next two Avenger films.
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2027 for this one according to a few sites out there including a Marvel wiki, and I believe the final scene of Black Widow took place in 2024.
Kor
Kor might mean the post credits scene which was after the blip
Oh, right. Duh. 
Do the Events of Hawkeye take place before or after the end credits scene of Black Widow? I've been watching clips of Hawkeye lately (Seeing Thunderbolts and seeing the news about Jeremy Renner) and watched the fight scene between Yelena and Burton again. Seems like that would have a big impact on Yelena and maybe even her relationship with Red Guardian. It's been so long since I've seen this stuff though.
Hawkeye is after Black Widow, Black Widow ends with Yelena being hired to kill Clint.
Kate's mom went to Kingpin to ask for Clint to be "dealt with", he went to Valentina and Valentina sent Yelena to test how effective she'd be at fighting a Pro Avenger.
A couple of reasons I would not want to see that:
1. Sam---being Captain America and a legitimate Avenger--should not be questioned about which team is the real one by Bucky, of all people. Barnes knows Valentina has no claim to the concept--and who would willingly accept her in any position of authority or her concoction as official? Moreover, Yelena can say the team "owns" Valentina, but they were mere words to a master manipulator of Valentina's caliber. Further, from a public (in-universe) perspective, it would be telling if no surviving heroes known to have a direct membership in the real Avengers (which leaves Bucky out) is not recruited or shows any interest in her team of ex-killers.
2. After the great build-up of the Wilson / Barnes friendship in the D+ series, having the two come to some conflict of any significance over the Avengers (with Barnes siding with Valentina to any degree) seems all too close to being a Civil War-esque situation, which the MCU can do without.
I guess you missed the third trailer (understandable). That's where I first learned he was going to be in it.
I didn't know his The Wire co-star, Chris Bauer, was also going to be in it until I stumbled upon his name in the film's Wikipedia article. Pity he only had one scene.
I really liked the movie. As someone who lives with depression, I found The Void and the Shame Rooms really resonant. Florence is awesome and I hope this takes her to the next level in her career. Lewis Pullman was basically playing 3 characters and was terrific at all of them. I nearly cried at the scene when Alexei chased after Yelena - no matter what, he sees her as his special little girl and he truly loves her. I love that he drove nonstop cross-country for her! This really got back to what made previous MCU movies work - characters. I adored Ava and Yelena sassing Walker together and hope to see their friendship grow in the future.
Agreed with everything you said. I will also like to give a big nod to Wyatt Russell. I actually really felt he gave a great performance here, both in humor but also with some lovely depth when needed. Right now I really want to rewatch FATWS because of him.
And like.... Right now I am deep therapy for trauma, depression.... I literally felt what Yelena went through. If anyone ever says that superhero movies are superficial, please watch Thunderbolts.
Remember the confusion about whether Thunderbolt Ross would appear in the film, either as just himself or as the Red Hulk? Turns out that rumor may have been confused with a different idea: John Walker becoming the Red Hulk.
In an early version of the film's script, before Sentry and the Void were involved, the main antagonist was going to be Walker as the Red Hulk thanks to Val. Script writer Eric Pearson told The Wrap what was originally conceived:
Honestly, I'm very glad they did away the Red Hulk idea (regardless of how the character was handled in Brave New World). The Void is a far more interesting character and the way the film utilized him was fantastic. I'm still sad we didn't get more Taskmaster or the shame rooms for the other team members, but I'm glad the other changes happened.
In an early version of the film's script, before Sentry and the Void were involved, the main antagonist was going to be Walker as the Red Hulk thanks to Val. Script writer Eric Pearson told The Wrap what was originally conceived:
The Version Where Walker Was the Villain
Early discussions actually had the movie feature the Red Hulk, but not the Harrison Ford Red Hulk as seen in “Captain America: Brave New World.” Instead, Walker (Wyatt Russell) aka U.S. Agent, would turn into the creature as part of a move by Valentina Allegra de Fontaine. “Part of Valentina’s manipulation was that she had tricked him into thinking he needed constant medication but what she was really doing was planting a time bomb in him if she needed to set him off,” Pearson explained. “Taking Walker, the most antagonistic member of the team, the most abrasive, and then turning him into something that they choose not to kill, but to try and save.” Ultimately, the Hulk bomb plot did not “feel right.” Thus, they introduced Sentry instead, a character Pearson initially discovered in the Marvel Writers Program that he was a part of back in 2010 and 2011. “I always remember loving the kind of idea of, What if Superman had a version of himself with that was as bad as it was good?” Pearson said. Sentry is introduced in the vault, as a troubled young amnesiac named Bob (Lewis Pullman). The character encapsulated much of the rest of the movie – “heroic ambition versus self-loathing” – and made perfect sense for inclusion. Sentry was in, Hulk bomb Walker was out.
In fact, there were multiple different versions of the film including the whole plot taking place in the O.X.E. Vault in a Die Hard scenario, the previously reported expanded Taskmaster role, a version with Bill Foster as Goliath (which is where the Fishbourne rumor may have come from), and a pitch involving "a bunch of adamantium.” Also, it turns out it was Kevin Feige's idea for Val to introduce them as the Avengers when the original version was to keep them as the Thundebolts.Honestly, I'm very glad they did away the Red Hulk idea (regardless of how the character was handled in Brave New World). The Void is a far more interesting character and the way the film utilized him was fantastic. I'm still sad we didn't get more Taskmaster or the shame rooms for the other team members, but I'm glad the other changes happened.