Thoughts on "Valiant"?

[WesleysDisciple]

You would think Starfleet BEST OF THE BEST, Cadets, would have epople with enough individual drive, to know that THEIR ARE circumstances, where mutiny IS acceptable?


Oh curious

someone mentioned First Duty.

What would likely have happened, in First Duty, had Nova Squad SUCCEEDED in performing the Kolvart Starburst.

Is their a reason why I think They'd have been given some technical discipline for violating an academy Edict, and too many guests would be thrilled, for Starfleet to punish them en masse?

 

[Praetorian]

I mostly enjoy this episode. I just think the soundtrack brings it down, specially during the ending. It's supposed to be menacing moment and instead we get cheery music...

 

[tomalak301]

You would think Starfleet BEST OF THE BEST, Cadets, would have epople with enough individual drive, to know that THEIR ARE circumstances, where mutiny IS acceptable?


Oh curious

someone mentioned First Duty.

What would likely have happened, in First Duty, had Nova Squad SUCCEEDED in performing the Kolvart Starburst.

Is their a reason why I think They'd have been given some technical discipline for violating an academy Edict, and too many guests would be thrilled, for Starfleet to punish them en masse?

I think they would have gotten a repremand but that was it. If I remember correctly, wasn't Locarno expelled and the rest held back a year?

 

[Marcus Porcius Cato]

I haven't seen this episode in a long time as I get angry after I saw it before since I think it's one of the worst episodes of the series. However, something that pisses me off even more about this one are the events in two of my favorite episodes, Homefront/Paradise Lost, and I have a simple question that brings these three episodes together.

What the hell was red squad still doing in service. I mean during the changling at home threat (Which never got resolved by the way) and the attempted Coup, Red Squad was an accessory to those events. I forgot if murder was involved, but I know treason was. So considering that yes at the time of the 4th season everyone knew that War was inevitable, why risk even having this "cadet group" still in service. Why wasn't it disbanded. Hell, if we bring in First Duty into this discussion, it seems like Starfleet Academy can't keep it's elite cadets in check and they have some serious internal issues. Isn't that a risk in itself to the war effort? I'm not saying disbanding Starfleet Academy, but why was Red Squad allowed to continue?

Anyway, Valiant and Profit and Lace are the two worst back to back group of episodes in the series, but I probably should watch them again (And I'm doing a rewatch where I'm not skipping episodes) to see if they still hold up to being bad.

I suspect that even with Layton in jail, there must have been other officers who were in on his attempted coup. Red Squad might have been saved for future and the cruse on Valiant might have been a good way to get the squad out of praying eyes of internal investigation.

Looking back I think Jake being there might have been oil in fire, I doubt members of Red Squad would have looked at the son of Ben Sisko, a man who brought their achievement to the ground, in favorable a light.

 

[TheRoyalFamily]

My main issue with the episode:

Why did Nog still look up to these guys? I can see why he would look up to them in the Academy: they were the best of the best, real hero-types, and popular to boot - everything he wanted to be. But he surpassed them. He was an actual officer. He was good enough to get a real commission, even considering the circumstances. They were just out for a stroll (probably their pre-graduation shakedown cruise), and happened to get into some bad luck. I'm quite sure that, had they survived, they would have all gotten medals, and probably a commission (if that wasn't the plan anyways), but that hadn't happened yet when Nog met them. He still had that hero-worship thing going, pretty much the whole time. That was just weird, especially as Nog doesn't seem to respect those below him that much (like a true Ferengi).

 

[WesleysDisciple]

Curious I think Watters was hoping to get a speedy promotion by wowing Starfleet command, with his amazing accomplishment.


Jake, I think he was right... NO ONE ELSE was mentioning that htis plan was INSANE

so he had to.

 

[Sadara]

I think it would have been more interesting for the crew to have survived and had to deal with Captain Sisko. If he intimidates Worf, imagine Watters having to deal with him.

 

[James T. Vader]

Ugh, Trek babies. If the Federation actually drills its cadets into doing such massively misguided, downright stupid things, congratulations - you've built yourselves a military education system that any totalitarian regime could be proud of.

They were a bad crew who followed a bad captain and I still giggle when they die and I snortle when the Jem’Hadar start firing on the escape pods

 

[Sadara]

Ugh, Trek babies. If the Federation actually drills its cadets into doing such massively misguided, downright stupid things, congratulations - you've built yourselves a military education system that any totalitarian regime could be proud of.

They were a bad crew who followed a bad captain and I still giggle when they die and I snortle when the Jem’Hadar start firing on the escape pods

This. I still would have been amused watching Sisko rip them a new asshole though.

 

[tighr]

Watters: Sir, I'm Captain Watters. Captain Ramirez gave me a battlefield commission.

Admiral: Captain my ass... get those pips off this minute, cadet. And don't you go near the Valiant unless it's to collect your belongings. Expect to be on the next shuttle back to Earth and the Academy!

And yet, this episode gives us the precedent that allowed Trek'09 to happen. After saving the day, Kirk should have been granted a commission as a Lt jg, and told to report to the Lexington. Effectively only skipping the Ensign rank, and only because he saved Earth.

As far as Valiant, I always thought it was jacked up that Collins accepts a brevet as a Chief Petty Officer... something that as a cadet she'd already outrank. Even Nog is confused when trying to figure out what rank she holds.

 

[TheRoyalFamily]

If the Federation actually drills its cadets into doing such massively misguided, downright stupid things, congratulations - you've built yourselves a military education system that any totalitarian regime could be proud of.

Good thing it doesn't. These guys all thought they were God's gift to the Universe. Layton specifically picked these douchenozzles because they were good, yet easily manipulated through their ambition. These are the kids that grow up to be Evil Admirals.

 

[LobsterAfternoon]

a cadet outranks an NCO? Can anyone who was actually in the military weigh in on that?

 

[Sadara]

a cadet outranks an NCO? Can anyone who was actually in the military weigh in on that?

When I was in the Army and was briefly in a commissioning program I was considered a cadet and was treated like a regular officer in many, but not all respects. My pay grade was actually that of a sergeant though.

In Starfleet's case, I think it would depend on how the Academy is geared toward producing officers versus enlisted so I can't say with any certainty either way. If O'Brien ended up on that ship, I think he'd still put Watters in his place somehow.

 

[WesleysDisciple]

I have to say I like the idea of watters having to explain himself to sisko



Oh curious what if Wesley had wound up aboard the ship.


He'd have probaly managed to Strong Arm Captain Watter's Take command of the ship, Reconfigure everything to work something like 10 times as well...

Then annihilate the Battleship... Then Have a Hologram of himself Standing tall and proud errected on the spot of the battleships vaporization.


Im sure back in Medieval times their probaly WERE captains as young as Watter's back when people BOUGHT their commisions.

 

[tighr]

In Starfleet's case, I think it would depend on how the Academy is geared toward producing officers versus enlisted so I can't say with any certainty either way. If O'Brien ended up on that ship, I think he'd still put Watters in his place somehow.

That has a lot to do with the ambiguity of how Trek treated enlisted/NCOs. O'Brien in particular. He was alternately portrayed as wearing one pip, two pips, one hollow pip, and then some funky chevron thing for most of DS9. Dialogue referred to him as Ensign, Lt, Chief, Petty Officer, and once as simply "Conn" (although that was Encounter at Farpoint, and he was a throwaway at that point). He was also mentioned as having attended Starfleet Academy, which no enlisted would have done, and served as Tactical Officer aboard the Rutledge. He acts as the Chief Engineer on DS9, which is confusing as a Chief Engineer is usually an officer, not an actual "Chief".

But in regards to putting Watters in his place, as a seasoned CPO he would certainly slap around Watters right up until the point where Watters issued an order, in which case he'd be obliged to obey it, albeit grudgingly. Young officers are supposed to heed the advice given by CPOs.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

He was also mentioned as having attended Starfleet Academy.

That was a mistake. It's been ignored.

 

[LobsterAfternoon]

Plus he could've attended some sort of non-officer training program that also happens to be located at the Academy.

 

[WesleysDisciple]

Got impressiopn that Enlisted crewmembers of starfleet do spend some time at the academy... IN the episode "the drumhead" It said that Forgot his name the guy who was 1 4th romulan had thought a time or two about Taking another 3 years of classes, but wanted to be out in the stars.

 

[yousirname]

It was an excellent episode for the most part. But after watching I thought that it could have been even better if Jake and Nog hadn't been involved at all - if the entire episode just began and ended with the crew of the Valiant. I mean, the only real reason they're there is to justify the episode and I think that if the producers had believed they could 'get away with it', they might have done it that way. It's a lot to cram into one episode, but a more organic dissenting tendency arising among the crew as the 'mission creep' Watters is ensuring takes place becomes more and more blatant, culminating in an attempt at mutiny and then the failed assault on the Dominion ship - that could have been bloody marvellous.

It would have removed the need for the miraculous character shield escape pod business with Jake and Nog, too. Not that I think it's a fault of the episode per se - but I think it could have been significantly better if they'd done it that way.

 

[Sadara]

Plus he could've attended some sort of non-officer training program that also happens to be located at the Academy.

This would almost certainly have to be the case because even the enlisted would have to be familiarized with Starfleet ships, equipment, procedures, etc.