Thoughts on Season 2

[DonIago]

Lynx- Like I said, I agree with your assessment of the episode overall. I appreciate the more objective analysis you provided this time around, though given my low opinion of the episode I'm not really interested in debating it.

 

[Lynx]

2. Why would she return to her previous level? It's said that becoming such an energy being is the highest level for the Ocampa. Why would she, as the only Ocampa dislike that paradise-like environment so much that she had to return to a pervious level?

I certainly share your frustration with this episode, but characters evolving to a higher plane is almost no better than death: writers paint themselves into a corner. I'm not surprised, for instance, that Wesley Crusher's dialogue was expunged from Nemesis as it would raise so many questions about why he would return to run the menial nightshift on the Titan in Nemesis. And if Sisko's return from the Celestial Temple had been depicted in the series, I would find it laughable if he took up again as a Starfleet officer. (Although it might make sense if he went back to cleaning clams.) Addressing Kes' return needed to be, in some sense, spectacular.

Now, I don't like to correct people's writing, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I laughed at the idea of Kes returning to her "pervier" self.

Ah, the curse of typing!

It's corrected now.

 

[KaraBear]

I liked "Twisted" simply for its weirdassness, which puts me in a minority.

I liked it too!

 

[KaraBear]

Well, even if we put my personal emotions aside and are trying to be objective, I would still find "Fury" a crap episode. I would have dislike it even if it had been another character who had been ruined in the same way as Kes was in that episode.

Even in my worst anti-Seven days, I wouldn't have dreamed about ruining that character in the same way.

The episode is simply bad. The whole scenario is unrealistic and totally wrong.

1. Why had Kes aged? If she had become some sort of Ocampa higher being in an afterlife which is the highest level for the Ocampa soul or so, she wouldn't have aged. She would have returned the same person as she left.

where does it say she wouldn't have aged? Ocampans typically live 9 years, Kes was 2 in season 2, so when she came back in season 6 she was appropriately aged

2. Why would she return to her previous level? It's said that becoming such an energy being is the highest level for the Ocampa. Why would she, as the only Ocampa dislike that paradise-like environment so much that she had to return to a previous level?

they said that having never achieved it. Remember, they said that living under the rule of the caretaker had atrophied their powers, and given their short life it had been many many many generations for them and nobody had achieved this state, so I guess it's like "heaven" it's assumed to be the best thing ever but you don't know for sure until you get there, maybe it wasn't all it was described to be

3. Why did she blame Janeway? It was her own decision to join the Voyager crew and during her whole time on Voyager she was happy and content with her life there.

this is pretty simple. When she left she was essentially like a 15 year old running off with her boyfriend. To her 15 year old self it seemed like a grand idea, adventure and fun. Did she think much about never seeing her family and home planet again? Probably not. Janeway should probably have tried to do a little more to convince her to stay behind

4. Why would she want to destroy the ship and kill her friends there, the friends she did care so much about. The real Kes would never do such a thing. She would rather sacrifice herself than to harm any of her crewmates.

this is pretty much a continuation of my point above. Kes was a child who ran off with her boyfriend. At the time she probably thought it was a fine idea. But as an adult she might have realized that she left her home, her family, her friends to never see them again, as an adult we often look back on things we did as kids and realize how stupid we were. On top of that we know from Before and After that a typical part of Ocampan aging, the onset of the morelogium is memory loss and distortion.

pair these things and you have an explination for why she was angry.

In the end of this pathetic excuse for an episode, she turns into a pathetic old wreck who wants to return to the place she left without remorse a long time ago. Now, where is the Kes who wanted to learn and explore, who wanted to go th Earth with the rest of the crew and maybe study at the Starfleet Academy? In other words, the real Kes!

here it seems like you just have a problem with her being old. Guess what, people get old. What is pathetic about her wanting to use her powers to help her family and friends? Wanting to go back to her own planet to help doesn't seem pathetic to me. She might have wanted to explore, and SHE DID! she saw more than any ocampan ever did, and as the energy being she explored more than probably anyone ever had seen. She did her exploring, now she wants to go home to help her people with all she's learned. Really, what is pathetic about that?

This episode makes no sense. It has nothing to do with the ongoing Voyager timeline. It has no importance or influence at all to coming events of the series. It seems to be made with the one and only purpose to destroy a character in the worst possible way.

this is your own emotional dislike of the epiosde and nothing more

 

[dub]

Kes was 2 in season 2,

Spoiler

so when she came back in season 6 she was appropriately aged

Oh how I wish I could unsee that spoiler. I'm re-watching Voyager for the most part, but obviously there is an episode (or episodes) I missed the first time

Spoiler

if Kes comes back...

 

[KaraBear]

Kes was 2 in season 2,

Spoiler

so when she came back in season 6 she was appropriately aged

Oh how I wish I could unsee that spoiler. I'm re-watching Voyager for the most part, but obviously there is an episode (or episodes) I missed the first time

Spoiler

if Kes comes back...

oh I'm sorry about that, I didn't realize you were watching for the first time

it's been so long I didn't think there might be someone who didn't know

 

[Lynx]

Well, even if we put my personal emotions aside and are trying to be objective, I would still find "Fury" a crap episode. I would have dislike it even if it had been another character who had been ruined in the same way as Kes was in that episode.

Even in my worst anti-Seven days, I wouldn't have dreamed about ruining that character in the same way.

The episode is simply bad. The whole scenario is unrealistic and totally wrong.

1. Why had Kes aged? If she had become some sort of Ocampa higher being in an afterlife which is the highest level for the Ocampa soul or so, she wouldn't have aged. She would have returned the same person as she left.

where does it say she wouldn't have aged? Ocampans typically live 9 years, Kes was 2 in season 2, so when she came back in season 6 she was appropriately aged

2. Why would she return to her previous level? It's said that becoming such an energy being is the highest level for the Ocampa. Why would she, as the only Ocampa dislike that paradise-like environment so much that she had to return to a previous level?

they said that having never achieved it. Remember, they said that living under the rule of the caretaker had atrophied their powers, and given their short life it had been many many many generations for them and nobody had achieved this state, so I guess it's like "heaven" it's assumed to be the best thing ever but you don't know for sure until you get there, maybe it wasn't all it was described to be


this is pretty simple. When she left she was essentially like a 15 year old running off with her boyfriend. To her 15 year old self it seemed like a grand idea, adventure and fun. Did she think much about never seeing her family and home planet again? Probably not. Janeway should probably have tried to do a little more to convince her to stay behind


this is pretty much a continuation of my point above. Kes was a child who ran off with her boyfriend. At the time she probably thought it was a fine idea. But as an adult she might have realized that she left her home, her family, her friends to never see them again, as an adult we often look back on things we did as kids and realize how stupid we were. On top of that we know from Before and After that a typical part of Ocampan aging, the onset of the morelogium is memory loss and distortion.

pair these things and you have an explination for why she was angry.

In the end of this pathetic excuse for an episode, she turns into a pathetic old wreck who wants to return to the place she left without remorse a long time ago. Now, where is the Kes who wanted to learn and explore, who wanted to go th Earth with the rest of the crew and maybe study at the Starfleet Academy? In other words, the real Kes!

here it seems like you just have a problem with her being old. Guess what, people get old. What is pathetic about her wanting to use her powers to help her family and friends? Wanting to go back to her own planet to help doesn't seem pathetic to me. She might have wanted to explore, and SHE DID! she saw more than any ocampan ever did, and as the energy being she explored more than probably anyone ever had seen. She did her exploring, now she wants to go home to help her people with all she's learned. Really, what is pathetic about that?

This episode makes no sense. It has nothing to do with the ongoing Voyager timeline. It has no importance or influence at all to coming events of the series. It seems to be made with the one and only purpose to destroy a character in the worst possible way.

this is your own emotional dislike of the epiosde and nothing more

I have to disagree with your statements here. If we start with the aging thing, becoming an energy being is the ultimate afterlife for the Ocampa. I have never seen aging in the afterlife in any religion. Those who have seen ghosts claim that they look the same as they did when they were alive.

There was no reason for Kes to be angry at the Voyager crew. She did choose herself to join the crew and she was happy all her time on Voyager. Why would she all of a sudden change her mind. The only reason for her to do so would be insanity and Kes was the least one of the Voyager main characters to go insane.

All actions of the pathetic creature we saw in that horrible episode was totally out of character for Kes.

And once again I have to state that this episode makes no sense. It has nothing to do with the ongoing Voyager timeline. It has no importance or influence at all to coming events of the series. It seems to be made with the one and only purpose to destroy a character in the worst possible way. That is not only my emotional dislike but a logic evaluation of the episode. Describing Kes the way she was described in that horrible episode would be like turning Picard into a neurotic drunken loser intended to destroy the Enterprise, Riker into a psychotic maniac plotting to take over the ship or Torres as a Klingon madcap who all of a sudden would like to take over Voyager and deliver it to the Klingon headquarters. In other words, totally out of character.

"Fury" was nothing but a badly written crap episode made to destroy and insult.

 

[KaraBear]

Well, even if we put my personal emotions aside and are trying to be objective, I would still find "Fury" a crap episode. I would have dislike it even if it had been another character who had been ruined in the same way as Kes was in that episode.

Even in my worst anti-Seven days, I wouldn't have dreamed about ruining that character in the same way.

The episode is simply bad. The whole scenario is unrealistic and totally wrong.

1. Why had Kes aged? If she had become some sort of Ocampa higher being in an afterlife which is the highest level for the Ocampa soul or so, she wouldn't have aged. She would have returned the same person as she left.

where does it say she wouldn't have aged? Ocampans typically live 9 years, Kes was 2 in season 2, so when she came back in season 6 she was appropriately aged


they said that having never achieved it. Remember, they said that living under the rule of the caretaker had atrophied their powers, and given their short life it had been many many many generations for them and nobody had achieved this state, so I guess it's like "heaven" it's assumed to be the best thing ever but you don't know for sure until you get there, maybe it wasn't all it was described to be


this is pretty simple. When she left she was essentially like a 15 year old running off with her boyfriend. To her 15 year old self it seemed like a grand idea, adventure and fun. Did she think much about never seeing her family and home planet again? Probably not. Janeway should probably have tried to do a little more to convince her to stay behind


this is pretty much a continuation of my point above. Kes was a child who ran off with her boyfriend. At the time she probably thought it was a fine idea. But as an adult she might have realized that she left her home, her family, her friends to never see them again, as an adult we often look back on things we did as kids and realize how stupid we were. On top of that we know from Before and After that a typical part of Ocampan aging, the onset of the morelogium is memory loss and distortion.

pair these things and you have an explination for why she was angry.


here it seems like you just have a problem with her being old. Guess what, people get old. What is pathetic about her wanting to use her powers to help her family and friends? Wanting to go back to her own planet to help doesn't seem pathetic to me. She might have wanted to explore, and SHE DID! she saw more than any ocampan ever did, and as the energy being she explored more than probably anyone ever had seen. She did her exploring, now she wants to go home to help her people with all she's learned. Really, what is pathetic about that?

This episode makes no sense. It has nothing to do with the ongoing Voyager timeline. It has no importance or influence at all to coming events of the series. It seems to be made with the one and only purpose to destroy a character in the worst possible way.

this is your own emotional dislike of the epiosde and nothing more

I have to disagree with your statements here. If we start with the aging thing, becoming an energy being is the ultimate afterlife for the Ocampa. I have never seen aging in the afterlife in any religion. Those who have seen ghosts claim that they look the same as they did when they were alive.

There was no reason for Kes to be angry at the Voyager crew. She did choose herself to join the crew and she was happy all her time on Voyager. Why would she all of a sudden change her mind. The only reason for her to do so would be insanity and Kes was the least one of the Voyager main characters to go insane.

All actions of the pathetic creature we saw in that horrible episode was totally out of character for Kes.

And once again I have to state that this episode makes no sense. It has nothing to do with the ongoing Voyager timeline. It has no importance or influence at all to coming events of the series. It seems to be made with the one and only purpose to destroy a character in the worst possible way. That is not only my emotional dislike but a logic evaluation of the episode. Describing Kes the way she was described in that horrible episode would be like turning Picard into a neurotic drunken loser intended to destroy the Enterprise, Riker into a psychotic maniac plotting to take over the ship or Torres as a Klingon madcap who all of a sudden would like to take over Voyager and deliver it to the Klingon headquarters. In other words, totally out of character.

"Fury" was nothing but a badly written crap episode made to destroy and insult.

I think you're just taking it personally because of your love of Kes, what really makes no sense is for TPTB to so something to "deliberately" piss off their fans.

if insanity is a reason for her behavior, then maybe she went insane. She's not above it, just because you like her doesn't mean she can't go insane, just because she was nice, doesn't mean she can't go insane. Actually more often than not, it's the "nice" ones that do go insane.

if you hate the episode then hate the episode, but I gave what I thought were explinations for her behavior, I know you will not open your mind to accept any explination because you're so set against it, and whatever, these were just my thoughts on the episode.

 

[R. Star]

I don't think insanity is more common for nice people as opposed to mean people. I think the change is just more noticeable. If Torres went on a homicidal rampage people would probably just say she snapped or maybe had resentment towards Janeway over the years for being stranded being she had to be physically restrained when Janeway gave the order to fire in Caretaker. Sweet Kes going nuts... well yeah that's kinda boggling. I don't think Fury did the character any service at all, and there wasn't any change or growth being the reset button was preemptively used with the recording(new take on an old trick), but to me it's just another example of the Voyager writers doing their think for better or worse.

 

[KaraBear]

I don't think insanity is more common for nice people as opposed to mean people. I think the change is just more noticeable. If Torres went on a homicidal rampage people would probably just say she snapped or maybe had resentment towards Janeway over the years for being stranded being she had to be physically restrained when Janeway gave the order to fire in Caretaker. Sweet Kes going nuts... well yeah that's kinda boggling. I don't think Fury did the character any service at all, and there wasn't any change or growth being the reset button was preemptively used with the recording(new take on an old trick), but to me it's just another example of the Voyager writers doing their think for better or worse.

It's not that it's more common, but how often do you hear people talk about a murderer, or somone who went insand and they say "oh he/she" was so nice" LOL

B'elana wasn't restrained, she leaned forward and chuckles put a hand on her shoulder, it's not like she was going to attack janeway

I think Fury was a good episode, even Jennifer Lien likes it. In my opinion it was one of the very few times Kes was actually interesting

 

[DonIago]

Heh heh, I'll concede that Kes was more interesting in "Fury" than she'd been in multipe prior episodes.

 

[KaraBear]

Heh heh, I'll concede that Kes was more interesting in "Fury" than she'd been in multipe prior episodes.

LOL, I think Fury and The Gift were her best moments, some bits of Cold Fire when she burned all the food was kind of cool too

 

[R. Star]

Kes burning Tuvok's face was kinda a freaky moment.

 

[KaraBear]

Kes burning Tuvok's face was kinda a freaky moment.

yeah, but no fun for Tuvok

 

[Lynx]

Heh heh, I'll concede that Kes was more interesting in "Fury" than she'd been in multipe prior episodes.

LOL, I think Fury and The Gift were her best moments, some bits of Cold Fire when she burned all the food was kind of cool too

"Fury" and "The Gift"?

Hmmm...I guess that you're not a fan of the character.

R.Star wrote:

I don't think insanity is more common for nice people as opposed to mean people. I think the change is just more noticeable. If Torres went on a homicidal rampage people would probably just say she snapped or maybe had resentment towards Janeway over the years for being stranded being she had to be physically restrained when Janeway gave the order to fire in Caretaker. Sweet Kes going nuts... well yeah that's kinda boggling. I don't think Fury did the character any service at all, and there wasn't any change or growth being the reset button was preemptively used with the recording(new take on an old trick), but to me it's just another example of the Voyager writers doing their think for better or worse.

I totally agree. "Fury" was an insulting piece of crap.

As for "The Gift", it was another horrible written episode with the one and only purpose to get rid of Kes as soon as possible. It's so thin, unconvincing and full of flaws that I guess that the writer must have written it on the toilet or during a coffee break.

 

[teya]

As for "The Gift", it was another horrible written episode with the one and only purpose to get rid of Kes as soon as possible. It's so thin, unconvincing and full of flaws that I guess that the writer must have written it on the toilet or during a coffee break.

I can see why you don't like "The Gift." I didn't much like the Kes parts either. If they were gonna get rid of her, I'd much rather she have taken off with the guy in Darkling.

However...

Jeri's performance is stunning.

 

[Melakon]

. . ."The Gift". . .[is] so thin, unconvincing and full of flaws that I guess that the writer must have written it on the toilet or during a coffee break.

It was written by Joe Menosky, who's usually pretty good at crazy weird stuff episodes, but it was directed by Anson Williams, better known as Potsie on "Happy Days", so that might explain everything.

 

[Lynx]

As for "The Gift", it was another horrible written episode with the one and only purpose to get rid of Kes as soon as possible. It's so thin, unconvincing and full of flaws that I guess that the writer must have written it on the toilet or during a coffee break.

I can see why you don't like "The Gift." I didn't much like the Kes parts either. If they were gonna get rid of her, I'd much rather she have taken off with the guy in Darkling.

However...

Jeri's performance is stunning.

I agree with you here.

Melankon wrote:

It was written by Joe Menosky, who's usually pretty good at crazy weird stuff episodes, but it was directed by Anson Williams, better known as Potsie on "Happy Days", so that might explain everything.

I guess that both the writer and the director were told to come up with somthing in which the character could be dumped as soon as possible which might explain the low quality of the episode.

 

[KaraBear]

As for "The Gift", it was another horrible written episode with the one and only purpose to get rid of Kes as soon as possible. It's so thin, unconvincing and full of flaws that I guess that the writer must have written it on the toilet or during a coffee break.

I can see why you don't like "The Gift." I didn't much like the Kes parts either. If they were gonna get rid of her, I'd much rather she have taken off with the guy in Darkling.

However...

Jeri's performance is stunning.

I agree with you here.

Melankon wrote:

It was written by Joe Menosky, who's usually pretty good at crazy weird stuff episodes, but it was directed by Anson Williams, better known as Potsie on "Happy Days", so that might explain everything.

I guess that both the writer and the director were told to come up with somthing in which the character could be dumped as soon as possible which might explain the low quality of the episode.

"low quality" is your opinion, I don't think it's low quality.

as for dumping the character "as soon as possible" that's not quite right. They knew for a few episodes at least that Jennifer Lien was leaving since she was already listed as a guest star in Scorpion part 2. Going from a main character to a guest star requires a different contract, different hours, different pay scale, so it's not like nobody knew it was coming. Plus since she wasn't in any of the season 4 promo shots, I think she knew she was going well before The Gift

 

[Lynx]

^^
So you think it was funny that she was dumped, therefore the "LOL" smiley?

What I've heard, Jennifer wasn't told that she was going to be dumped until the filming of "The Gift" was about to start.

Correct information or not, she got the message rather late because Kim was the one who was chosen to be dumped after season 3, but those in charge changed their minds after a silly inside poll in a glossy magazine.

What I've heard, Jennifer was depressed during the filming of "The Gift". The other cast members weren't too happy over it either.

But maybe that was funny too?