Thoughts on Season 2

[dub]

Let's just replace the word "reset" with some random technobabble. Will that make everyone happy? LOL. Honestly, whether or not what happened is a "reset" is completely irrelevant to my feelings on what happened. So if you say it's not a "reset," Kara, that's perfectly fine by me.

By the way, I finished watching "Basics, Part II" on my lunch break. I thought the struggles on the planet (the cavemen, the monster of the week, the baby) were all kind of pointless, except for showing how awesome Janeway is in survival mode. But I loved the scenes of the Voyager landing and the music gave me warm and fuzzies. I thought Darwin had a decent death scene, but I wish they kept him around because I found him interesting. I'd say Part I was far and away a better episode.

So since at the end of the episode they're all back on Voyager as if nothing happened, this is a reset episode too?

Here's the difference for me. At the end of "Basics, Part II," the crew got their ship back, the bad guys had to limp away, Seska was killed, the ship didn't have an unusal amount of damage and they move on. The only thing that remains is Chakotay's baby may have survived, and perhaps that will come up in a future episode, or perhaps not. We shall see. But based on the ending, I have no expectations for immediate continuity into the next episode.

At the end of "Deadlock" however, the ship is in shambles, the deck 15 breach had widened to encompass a part of deck 14, 632 micro-fractures are all over the hull, all primary systems are offline, the antimatter levels are at 18 percent and continuing to fall, the warp coils in both nacelles are fused and inoperative, and it's going to take them 3 days just to be able to return to the bridge. Sure repairs were "underway," but there is no way they could warp away immediately, they're very close to Vidiian space and the ship is effectively disabled. Again, they're very close to Vidiian space! So my expectations were that the next episode would deal with the dilemma of still trying to make a dent in the excessive repair list they're facing while trying to avoid the Vidiians, or perhaps encountering the Vidiians and running into some danger there, being forced to negotiate for some parts they need to make repairs, or something to pick up where they left off. There was potential for that at least. Instead, in the next episode they've conveniently gone beyond Vidiian space and the ship is already 100% tip top. So that's not a "reset" based on your definition (and that's fine, just forget the word "reset"), but it was just disappointing to me based on what the writers could have done based on where they were at the end of "Deadlock." There was so much potential for a really good continuation there. That's the difference for me. And as I have acknowledged, this happens in every Trek. I'm just expressing the simple disappointment I felt based on the potential in this case that was wasted in my view. I hope that at least clears up what was going through my head when I made my original post.

 

[Lynx]

Season 2 is without doubt the best Voyager season and the best season of all Star Trek series.

Most of the episodes are excellent, the only episodes that isn't that good is "Threshold" and it is at least funny to watch if you imagine it as a nightmare Janeway had after eating too much of Neelix's food.

My favorite episodes are "Cold Fire", Persistence of Vision" and "Alliances".

 

[R. Star]

and about "smearing" tom's name....that's what Janeway and tuvok wanted. Remember Tom was purposely acting like a jerk to make it believable that he was leaving. Neelix, like everyone else, believed it like they wanted

There's a huge moral difference between someone acting like a screw up and calling them a traitor. Mind you his "evidence" of that was -after- he broke into his quarters and used someone else's authorization to hack into Tom's computer.

Only after that did Janeway and Tuvok say they could use that to possibly flush out the killer. Mind you this was after they asked Neelix to step out of it. No... he was completely unselfish by putting his own headline ahead of the ship's security.

 

[dub]

Season 2 is without doubt the best Voyager season and the best season of all Star Trek series.

I feel like we should have a debate about "without doubt" now since we spent way too much time on "reset." LOL

 

[Seven of Five]

Season 2 is without doubt the best Voyager season and the best season of all Star Trek series.

Hmm. I don't think I could call any of VOY's seasons the best of all Star Trek, though it has great nostalgia value for me as me and my friend watched it religiously back in the day.

I find the first three seasons of VOY very hit and miss. I didn't mind the first one so much as it was still new back then, and it seemed like the producers were at least trying.

Seasons four onwards brought an improvement, making the show just somewhat hit and miss.

 

[DonIago]

I have plenty of doubts myself. Doubts with names like "Elogium", "Twisted", "Innocence", "Parturition"...

 

[R. Star]

Season 2 is without doubt the best Voyager season and the best season of all Star Trek series.

Most of the episodes are excellent, the only episodes that isn't that good is "Threshold" and it is at least funny to watch if you imagine it as a nightmare Janeway had after eating too much of Neelix's food.

My favorite episodes are "Cold Fire", Persistence of Vision" and "Alliances".

Well, I think that's the first time I've ever heard that. Even from most who say Voyager is their favorite series. But whatever makes you happy.

Cold Fire... just struck me as unfulfilling... how they handled that plot point from Caretaker about a possible way home. Of course we know the answer to "Will they get home?" is always "No!" but it was disappointing how they handled Suspheria. Though Tanis saying "When Voyager appears, people fear death and destruction." was funny. I wish they would've left this encounter more open ended, especially since Suspheria apparently existed only in thought or something. It would've been neat if Kes had somehow kept her powers instead of the reset button being pushed there with her.

Persistence of Vision... I'd call that a fairly average episode. I really can't find much fault in it, though the Janeway British holonovel gets tiresome. I can't believe that was one of the first mini-arcs in Voyager. Other than that, the standard Jeri Taylor Janeway centered script. Though the shrinking doctor was funny.

Alliances? I liked this episode right up until the ending. One of the few episodes that went out of it's way to highlight the differences between the Maquis and Federation crews. Janeway's reaction to negotiating with Culluh, while definitely not endearing, was kinda funny. Sure she shouldn't have to put up with his crap like that, but it was clear she was just looking for any excuse for that alliance to fail. Distasteful as it may have been, Janeway really would've been better off if she let the Trabe kill off the Kazon leadership. But Janeway's willing to sacrifice everyone before turning any part of her ship over to the enemy, and we get the pat ending of Janeway pontificating how they should stick true to Federation values no matter what, and never ally themselves with the bad guy. Which is funny when

Spoiler: Future Spoilers

she later helps the Borg defeat Species 8472 in order to get passage through their space, or gives holodeck technology to the Hirogen to get them to stop attacking.

 

[dub]

I just remembered this...which episode had all of the different Kazon Majes being introduced? There was fanfare and applause, but no audience. I was thinking...where is this cheering and applause coming from? LOL.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

At the end of "Deadlock" however, the ship is in shambles, the deck 15 breach had widened to encompass a part of deck 14, 632 micro-fractures are all over the hull, all primary systems are offline, the antimatter levels are at 18 percent and continuing to fall, the warp coils in both nacelles are fused and inoperative, and it's going to take them 3 days*just to be able to return to the bridge.*Sure repairs were "underway," but there is no way they could warp away immediately, they're very close to Vidiian space and the ship is effectively disabled. Again, they're very close to Vidiian space! So my expectations were that the next episode would deal with the dilemma of still trying to make a dent in the excessive repair list they're facing while trying to avoid the Vidiians, or perhaps encountering the Vidiians and running into some danger there, being forced to negotiate for some parts they need to make repairs, or*something*to pick up where they left off. There was potential for that at least. Instead, in the next episode they've conveniently gone beyond Vidiian space and the ship is already 100% tip top. So that's not a "reset" based on your definition (and that's fine, just forget the word "reset"), but it was just disappointing to me based on what the writers could have done based on where they were at the end of "Deadlock." There was so much potential for a really good continuation there. That's the difference for me. And as I have acknowledged, this happens in every Trek. I'm just expressing the simple disappointment I felt based on the potential in this case that was wasted in my view. I hope that at least clears up what was going through my head when I made my original post.

I'm not sure how specific this is to this one episode rather than emblematic of the series. For what it's worth, the episode left me with a notion about how Janeway started to see the ship as a community, and how much individual suffering she would accept in order to get everyone home. It's different from the notion in TNG that everyone is prepared to sacrifice themselves in the moment. Sorry if this seems abstract, but choosing one Voyager rather than fighting to the last allowed the preservation of her goals toward that community. I'm not sure that she stayed true thereto, as Seven effectively called her out when her I'm implants started to fail.

 

[R. Star]

I just remembered this...which episode had all of the different Kazon Majes being introduced? There was fanfare and applause, but no audience. I was thinking...where is this cheering and applause coming from? LOL.

Maneuvers has some other majes, but Alliances has that cheesy scene with the guy introducing them all.

 

[Seven of Five]

Alliances? I liked this episode right up until the ending. One of the few episodes that went out of it's way to highlight the differences between the Maquis and Federation crews.

Totally agreed. The end of the episode played it far too safe, even if Janeway taking a stance was admirable (if naive). And then of course by The Swarm in season three, she had reversed her decision about protocol and decided to go through alien space.

Alliances would have been much better if it cemented Janeway's decision to start bending the rules to survive.

 

[KaraBear]

Season 2 is without doubt the best Voyager season and the best season of all Star Trek series.

Most of the episodes are excellent, the only episodes that isn't that good is "Threshold" and it is at least funny to watch if you imagine it as a nightmare Janeway had after eating too much of Neelix's food.

My favorite episodes are "Cold Fire", Persistence of Vision" and "Alliances".

Well, I think that's the first time I've ever heard that. Even from most who say Voyager is their favorite series. But whatever makes you happy.

yep I'll agree there, Voyager is my favorite and I'm always trying to defend it, but I definately think that season 1 and 2 were not the best. They have a few good episodes, but mostly the seasons were weak. Voyager didn't really hit it's stride until season 4

Cold Fire... just struck me as unfulfilling... how they handled that plot point from Caretaker about a possible way home. Of course we know the answer to "Will they get home?" is always "No!" but it was disappointing how they handled Suspheria. Though Tanis saying "When Voyager appears, people fear death and destruction." was funny. I wish they would've left this encounter more open ended, especially since Suspheria apparently existed only in thought or something. It would've been neat if Kes had somehow kept her powers instead of the reset button being pushed there with her.

I didn't really like that they found her so quick. They talked a lot about the female caretaker and I think tey should have given it a few more seasons, possibly even made it the series finale. And then she's a little girl with the voice of an 80 year old woman who smokes 5 packs a day. Really dissapointing. I found myself hoping that Kes would go with them and stay with Susperia

Persistence of Vision... I'd call that a fairly average episode. I really can't find much fault in it, though the Janeway British holonovel gets tiresome. I can't believe that was one of the first mini-arcs in Voyager. Other than that, the standard Jeri Taylor Janeway centered script. Though the shrinking doctor was funny.

Loved shrinking doc, and I kind of liked the novel. I was always wondering more about that story, was the girl seeing her mother, was the mother still alive. Though I think the holo novel was more interesting than this whole episode. It was kind of fun to see some peole's fantasies, like B'elanna wanting to have sex with Chuckles. I hated the ending though, ear shattering kes screaches and an alien who gives no reason for messing with the crew.

Alliances? I liked this episode right up until the ending. One of the few episodes that went out of it's way to highlight the differences between the Maquis and Federation crews. Janeway's reaction to negotiating with Culluh, while definitely not endearing, was kinda funny. Sure she shouldn't have to put up with his crap like that, but it was clear she was just looking for any excuse for that alliance to fail. Distasteful as it may have been, Janeway really would've been better off if she let the Trabe kill off the Kazon leadership. But Janeway's willing to sacrifice everyone before turning any part of her ship over to the enemy, and we get the pat ending of Janeway pontificating how they should stick true to Federation values no matter what, and never ally themselves with the bad guy. Which is funny when

Spoiler: Future Spoilers

she later helps the Borg defeat Species 8472 in order to get passage through their space, or gives holodeck technology to the Hirogen to get them to stop attacking.

I'm just not a fan of any Kazon episode really


and in regards to one of your spoilers....

she didn't give the hirogen the holotech to get them to stop attacking. They had already had a truce and the hirogen were already leaving. The hirogen had already picked apart all of voyager's systems and had a good idea of the workings of the holodeck. She gave them that tech to honor the hirogen leader that was killed.

 

[teya]

Season 2 is without doubt the best Voyager season and the best season of all Star Trek series.

Most of the episodes are excellent, the only episodes that isn't that good is "Threshold" and it is at least funny to watch if you imagine it as a nightmare Janeway had after eating too much of Neelix's food.

My favorite episodes are "Cold Fire", Persistence of Vision" and "Alliances".

The only episode that isn't that good is "Threshold"?

Season 2 contains the episode that informs me that I'm descended from space aliens. I'm not completely human.

Star Trek manages to achieve justification for the European genocide of indigenous Americans. Well done! Glad you enjoyed that piece of garbage so much!

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The only episode that isn't that good is "Threshold"?

Boo! Salamander babies would have been a great addition to the crew!

 

[KaraBear]

Season 2 is without doubt the best Voyager season and the best season of all Star Trek series.

Most of the episodes are excellent, the only episodes that isn't that good is "Threshold" and it is at least funny to watch if you imagine it as a nightmare Janeway had after eating too much of Neelix's food.

My favorite episodes are "Cold Fire", Persistence of Vision" and "Alliances".

The only episode that isn't that good is "Threshold"?

Season 2 contains the episode that informs me that I'm descended from space aliens. I'm not completely human.

Star Trek manages to achieve justification for the European genocide of indigenous Americans. Well done! Glad you enjoyed that piece of garbage so much!

Star Trek says that ALL humans...and everyone in the galaxy came from aliens.

and sorry, but how is being descended from aliens insulting? I don't like that episode either, but I don't get why being descended from aliens is insulting

 

[teya]

and sorry, but how is being descended from aliens insulting? I don't like that episode either, but I don't get why being descended from aliens is insulting

First Europeans, then the US Government used the belief that American Indians were not fully human as justification for genocide.

"Tattoo" posits that American Indians lacked speech (unlike other humans) and needed additional alien DNA in order to surivive and thrive.

In other words, we were the stupid humans. Too stupid to develop language without an injection of additional alien DNA.

ETA: This isn't even taking into account the idiocy of finding a tribe of RFA Indians in the Central American rainforest.

Don't see any other humans in Star Trek sporting forehead ridges...

 

[KaraBear]

and sorry, but how is being descended from aliens insulting? I don't like that episode either, but I don't get why being descended from aliens is insulting

First Europeans, then the US Government used the belief that American Indians were not fully human as justification for genocide.

"Tattoo" posits that American Indians lacked speech (unlike other humans) and needed additional alien DNA in order to surivive and thrive.

In other words, we were the stupid humans. Too stupid to develop language without an injection of additional alien DNA.

ETA: This isn't even taking into account the idiocy of finding a tribe of RFA Indians in the Central American rainforest.

Don't see any other humans in Star Trek sporting forehead ridges...

in all fairness they're talking about a fictional tribe, one tribe, not every native american. who didn't have forehead ridges either

the way I saw it, the aliens came and saw a species in a certain state of evolution and sped it up, that doesn't mean that speach and technology wouldn't have evolved anyway, they just came at the point before that.

star trek says we all came from aliens, I think that's pretty cool actually

 

[teya]

and sorry, but how is being descended from aliens insulting? I don't like that episode either, but I don't get why being descended from aliens is insulting

First Europeans, then the US Government used the belief that American Indians were not fully human as justification for genocide.

"Tattoo" posits that American Indians lacked speech (unlike other humans) and needed additional alien DNA in order to surivive and thrive.

In other words, we were the stupid humans. Too stupid to develop language without an injection of additional alien DNA.

ETA: This isn't even taking into account the idiocy of finding a tribe of RFA Indians in the Central American rainforest.

Don't see any other humans in Star Trek sporting forehead ridges...

in all fairness they're talking about a fictional tribe, one tribe, not every native american. who didn't have forehead ridges either

the way I saw it, the aliens came and saw a species in a certain state of evolution and sped it up, that doesn't mean that speach and technology wouldn't have evolved anyway, they just came at the point before that.

star trek says we all came from aliens, I think that's pretty cool actually

What I bolded, that's the problem.

I'm a Homo sapiens, just like you.

We are not separate species.

They were also pretty vague about whether it was just Chakotay's tribe or all Native Americans (since they were showing 'em on the migration from Asia, and the history the alien provided was consistent with it being all of us).

Just the fact that they had to make up a freaking tribe was ridiculous. Janeway can be Irish. That's a good thing to be.

But Chakotay couldn't be from any existing tribe. No, that would be insulting, according to Jeri Taylor.

Insulting to whom? White people? Indians? Who exactly would be offended if Chakotay was a Mohawk or a Navajo or a Mayan?

 

[KaraBear]

First Europeans, then the US Government used the belief that American Indians were not fully human as justification for genocide.

"Tattoo" posits that American Indians lacked speech (unlike other humans) and needed additional alien DNA in order to surivive and thrive.

In other words, we were the stupid humans. Too stupid to develop language without an injection of additional alien DNA.

ETA: This isn't even taking into account the idiocy of finding a tribe of RFA Indians in the Central American rainforest.

Don't see any other humans in Star Trek sporting forehead ridges...

in all fairness they're talking about a fictional tribe, one tribe, not every native american. who didn't have forehead ridges either

the way I saw it, the aliens came and saw a species in a certain state of evolution and sped it up, that doesn't mean that speach and technology wouldn't have evolved anyway, they just came at the point before that.

star trek says we all came from aliens, I think that's pretty cool actually

What I bolded, that's the problem.

I'm a Homo sapiens, just like you.

We are not separate species.

nobody is saying we're separate species, and nobody is referring to you, it's a fictional tribe

and sorry, but I still don't see why aliens speeding up the evolution is a problem. If they hadn't come around they would have evolved anyway. They just made it happen faster

 

[teya]

in all fairness they're talking about a fictional tribe, one tribe, not every native american. who didn't have forehead ridges either

the way I saw it, the aliens came and saw a species in a certain state of evolution and sped it up, that doesn't mean that speach and technology wouldn't have evolved anyway, they just came at the point before that.

star trek says we all came from aliens, I think that's pretty cool actually

What I bolded, that's the problem.

I'm a Homo sapiens, just like you.

We are not separate species.

nobody is saying we're separate species, and nobody is referring to you, it's a fictional tribe

and sorry, but I still don't see why aliens speeding up the evolution is a problem. If they hadn't come around they would have evolved anyway. They just made it happen faster

I added to my points above.

My views on this episode are pretty consistent with those of other Native Americans. Given that we're not represented as anything but stereotypes in most film & TV, we truly hoped for better from Star Trek. We were disappointed.