Thoughts on "Generations"

[Dukhat]

We tend to forget that we didn't actually learn all that much about Guinan's people on the TV show. In fact, IIRC Generations was the first time they were even given a name. Until then it was really just Whoopi saying "my people" a lot.

That's really the problem - we have two character essential to the plot, and we know nothing about them. Who is Soran? Some guy. Who is Guinan? The one who knew Soran from back in the day, but no further details except for basic plot points.

I really think that, if they'd used Spock instead of Guinan, it would have made the film much better, giving us protagonists we know and care about, and filling some of the biggest plot-holes. Imagine:

In the 23rd century, Ambassador Spock is leading a secret diplomatic mission to the Romulans. Kirk rescues both parties from a spatial anomaly - Spock is stunned; the Romulan ambassador seems to have gone mad.

In the 24th century, Spock explains the Nexus to Picard, and says the reason he survived the Nexus was his mental training and self control, whereas the Romulan, from a culture that rejected Vulcan ways, was vulnerable. Spock tells Picard, "The day that I was cast out of Paradise was also the day my best friend died."

When Picard meets Spock in the Nexus, this is past-Spock, not some hokey "echo". Spock mind-melds with Picard and understands the situation (thus creating a causal paradox). They find Kirk and convince him to help Picard. Kirk asks Spock to come with them, but Spock explains, "I cannot go with you to your destination because I am already there. I hope we will meet again ... soon."

Spock uses his mental powers to release them from the Nexus.​

Nice idea. The only problem with it is that now Generations is a movie about Kirk and Spock, instead of being a movie about the TNG crew.

Really, most of Generation's flaws can be boiled down to one thing: This movie should have been about the TNG cast, not about Kirk or anything else to do with TOS. The "passing of the torch" crap had been over and done with seven years before. It was completely unnecessary to involve TOS in this film other than the obligatory "Kirk meets Picard" schtick, which wasn't anywhere near as satisfying as it could have been if done correctly.

As for Soran and Guinan, the movie could have begun with them seeing the destruction of their world by the Borg, instead of the TOS scenes. That way even someone who never saw TNG before would have the context of these two characters and how they eventually ended up where they were in the 24th century, and it would have been a great lead-in to FC.

 

[BillJ]

Really, most of Generation's flaws can really be boiled down to one thing: This movie should have been about the TNG cast...

This.

 

[eyeresist]

Nice idea. The only problem with it is that now Generations is a movie about Kirk and Spock, instead of being a movie about the TNG crew.

Really, most of Generation's flaws can be boiled down to one thing: This movie should have been about the TNG cast, not about Kirk or anything else to do with TOS.

Apparently one cannot be a TNG-lover without being a TOS-hater? It's all Star Trek. I don't see how a movie is made significantly worst just by including characters from a different iterations.

 

[Dukhat]

Apparently one cannot be a TNG-lover without being a TOS-hater? It's all Star Trek. I don't see how a movie is made significantly worst just by including characters from a different iterations.

Excuse me, I never said "one cannot be a TNG-lover without being a TOS-hater." I said that overusing Kirk and Spock in Generations would have been detrimental to the TNG crew in a movie that was supposed to be about them. Sorry I didn't like your idea but there you go. And it's no different than having Riker and Troi as the stars of the ENT series finale. And look how that turned out.

 

[eyeresist]

^ In both cases, the problem was the execution, not the concept.

 

[Dukhat]

^ In both cases, the problem was the execution, not the concept.

And that just proves how detrimental that can be if it's not done correctly, if there's even a "correct" way. In both cases the regular cast was severely overshadowed by the guest stars. I don't think that doing it any other way would have changed that. Better that it not be done at all.

 

[Lance]

In my view they *did* over-use Kirk. Ironic, because other people I've spoken to have said he's way under-used. But I still think that Shatner's presence sucks oxygen away from TNG being able to establish itself on the large screen as successfully as they might have done if Kirk hadn't been involved. The need to accomodate Kirk into the story, no matter *how* little relevance he actually has to the plot, only serves to mean that a full two-thirds of the movie has to be about the old guy and not very many of the new ones. The TNG cast is kind of rush-introduced to the audience, when we might assume that many of them, especially internationally, may not be au fait with TNG at all. And Kirk's presence in the plot feels about as shallow as 1701-D's destruction was. A cynical exercise in ticking the check-boxes on some studio suit's clipboard.

I mean, TNG hit the ground running on the big screen in First Contact. Nobody can take that away from them, but there's a small part of me that sees Generations as having been a part of the sausage factory approach to making Star Trek. It was just kind of churned out. Just imagine if, instead of wasting time giving Jim Kirk a post-script that he honestly didn't need, they had've instead moved TNG onto the big screen straight away with a First Contact or equivalent knock 'em down movie...? What if they'd firmly taken the ball with both hands and made a play for touchdown, instead of kind of pulling back and handing the ball to some old school player so he can take some kind of symbolic free kick from the sidelines? Or something. I didn't really give that analogy much thought.

 

[arch101]

The film has always seemed to me like a really big ep of the TV show. "All Good Things", which had aired only a few months before, had a MUCH stronger story.
The E-D never looked better. The CGI "beauty pass" to warp as she heads off to Veridian is the finest shot of that ship EVER.
Also, the more dramatic lighting of the interior sets that movie film allowed (more details in the shadows) made everything old look new again. I had always wanted to see Probert's bridge in wide-screen and the 8 year old set didn't disappoint. I even liked the mods (the set would have looked too empty on the big screen without more people)
I must admit that the "passing the torch" moment between Kirk and Picard is maybe the best of it's kind I've ever seen. Doesn't make up for the rest of the film, though.

 

[eyeresist]

The need to accomodate Kirk into the story, no matter *how* little relevance he actually has to the plot, only serves to mean that a full two-thirds of the movie has to be about the old guy

But this isn't actually true. Kirk is in the first 20 minutes and the last 20 minutes (approximately; it's actually less than that). Take that and the credits out of a 120 minute movie, and TNG get sole focus for 75 minutes.

The TNG cast is kind of rush-introduced to the audience,

Disagree. The ship scene introduces all the personalities pretty well, and most of them (except Worf and Crusher) have a lot to do in the film. What's the alternative to introducing the cast "in media res" - have them sit around for half an hour discussing minutiae of TNG continuity?

 

[Lance]

The film has always seemed to me like a really big ep of the TV show.

Saucer crash aside, I can think of TV episodes that feel ''bigger'' than Generations does.

 

[svenden]

Over the years, I've come to place Generations in the same bucket with Final Frontier. There are all sorts of bits and pieces that are really wonderful and memorable, but they completely fail to come together as a great movie.

My main criticisms are:

1. Picard a wimp - Between the crying at the beginning, and the contrast between his and Kirk's fighting style at the end, Picard comes out of this looking like a wimp. I mean, compare that to First Contact, where he's all of a sudden this awesome action star!
2. Data a wimp - Similar to Picard, the way they introduced the emotion chip to Data made him seem something of a wimp for much of the movie. This is a movie, and these two characters are arguably your lead heroes! It just doesn't make sense.
3. No Stakes - I think the single biggest directing/script error is that we never see the millions of people on the Veridian planet that are going to die if Soron isn't stopped. Instead, they're fighting on this desert planet for what? No emotional stakes at all.

Having said all that, I love...

• The opening credits, with the champagne bottle. So imaginative, it always brings a smile to my face.
• The two opening sequences to the film (Ent-B and Holodeck). Shatner is so good throughout the opener, and it's so wonderful to see the comraderie between the TNG crew on the holodeck.
• Picard's counseling session with Troi - As I said above, it really undermines the movie, but on it's own, it's a beautiful scene. I think Stewart and Sirtis are splendid here.
• Enterprise crashing - Look, I get the criticisms of this, but it's still an incredible sequence. And because we all loved that ship so much, watching it crash and burn like that is all the more devastating.

 

[Lance]

No Stakes - I think the single biggest directing/script error is that we never see the millions of people on the Veridian planet that are going to die if Soron isn't stopped. Instead, they're fighting on this desert planet for what? No emotional stakes at all.

Totally agree. I know they talk about how important it is to stop Soren, but the thing is that to pull the audience along with you, you've gotta show us what's at stake. For all its faults, even Insurrection does that one right by (trying) to get us involved in the Baku people's plight; but it is a major error not to have shot a few bits on the Veridian people. The way it is shot feels like how they'd have done it on TV, on a budget. It doesn't feel like a movie.

 

[Kor]

But that's life. People do heroic things and make sacrifices that the vast majority will never know or care about. Why should the Trek universe be any different?

And arguably, the TNG movies after GEN messed up Picard's characterization by turning him into an action star, when he had always been about talking and diplomacy.

Kor

 

[Lance]

But that's life. People do heroic things and make sacrifices that the vast majority will never know or care about. Why should the Trek universe be any different?

''Show, don't tell''. There's a big difference between the main characters caring about the unseen millions in the Veridian system, and the audience caring about them. In order for the latter to have any dramatic impact in the story, we need to have some flavor of who they are, so that we can empathize with the stakes involved.

It's okay for a TV show to have all these people off-stage. But for an (alleged) big-budget movie it's simply unacceptable. Even if their appearance is only tokenistic, it still needs to be there.

 

[Marsden]

One of my many complaints about Generations, one that's not really "in" the movie itself but forms the motivation of it all is that Soren wants back in to the Nexus but he should already be in it. If guinan is still in it why isn't he?

And further more, ok so he's not still in it and wants back, ok, why the F&^% doesn't he just fly into it instead of blowing up stars to aim it to this planet. Data says, you can get into it by flying in a ship, but how did Soren get into it the first time, in a ship, how did guinan get into it, in a ship, how did Kirk get into it.... This is a huge problem and really is the main reason that sets the plot in motion. It's just terrible before it even starts. I don't know why no one could have said so to B & B or whoever dreamed up this ridiculousness.

 

[Dukhat]

But that's life. People do heroic things and make sacrifices that the vast majority will never know or care about. Why should the Trek universe be any different?

Because this isn't life. This is fiction. Just like every other Hollywood movie with completely unbelievable scenes and outcomes, Generations could have done the same.

And arguably, the TNG movies after GEN messed up Picard's characterization by turning him into an action star, when he had always been about talking and diplomacy.

Agreed.

One of my many complaints about Generations, one that's not really "in" the movie itself but forms the motivation of it all is that Soren wants back in to the Nexus but he should already be in it. If guinan is still in it why isn't he?

And further more, ok so he's not still in it and wants back, ok, why the F&^% doesn't he just fly into it instead of blowing up stars to aim it to this planet. Data says, you can get into it by flying in a ship, but how did Soren get into it the first time, in a ship, how did guinan get into it, in a ship, how did Kirk get into it.... This is a huge problem and really is the main reason that sets the plot in motion. It's just terrible before it even starts. I don't know why no one could have said so to B & B or whoever dreamed up this ridiculousness.

Well, as was stated in the film, what we see of Guinan is just a tiny part of her consciousness that can't leave the Nexus (although in my mind, she's actually just a Nexus-induced fantasy just like Kirk, and that Picard never actually left the Nexus because he's fulfilling his fantasy )

But all kidding aside, one thing that I didn't quite buy was when Nexus-Guinan says that from Kirk's perspective, he'd only just arrived. Huh? He's been in the Nexus for 80 years. While Guinan was forcibly ripped away only minutes after entering, Nexus-Guinan has also been there for 80 years. Why didn't she feel like she's just arrived?

 

[Turd Ferguson]

One of my many complaints about Generations, one that's not really "in" the movie itself but forms the motivation of it all is that Soren wants back in to the Nexus but he should already be in it. If guinan is still in it why isn't he?

And further more, ok so he's not still in it and wants back, ok, why the F&^% doesn't he just fly into it instead of blowing up stars to aim it to this planet. Data says, you can get into it by flying in a ship, but how did Soren get into it the first time, in a ship, how did guinan get into it, in a ship, how did Kirk get into it.... This is a huge problem and really is the main reason that sets the plot in motion. It's just terrible before it even starts. I don't know why no one could have said so to B & B or whoever dreamed up this ridiculousness.

Or, why not use the Enterprise to warp ahead of the Nexus, then drop Soran out an airlock wearing a spacesuit in the Nexus' path? Or just beam him into it?

 

[TheVortaKeevan]

There was no need to bring back anyone from the TOS movies. They had their big goodbye in Star Trek The Undiscovered Country. I didn't really care for the storyline for Generations it was somewhat like Insurrection. You can live forever in the Nexus or you can do the same on the Baku planet. I always thought they could of made the DS9 episode the Defiant into a joint TNG-DS9 movie.

 

[eyeresist]

One of my many complaints about Generations, one that's not really "in" the movie itself but forms the motivation of it all is that Soren wants back in to the Nexus but he should already be in it. If guinan is still in it why isn't he?

I was thinking about this, and how Soran's motives are unclear. We assume that Soran wants back into the Nexus, so he can live a fantasy about his family being alive, but what if he intends to use the Nexus as a time machine, i.e. go back and save his family from the Borg?
If he does this, then his future actions will be cancelled out, justifying any means for his end.

(Guinan is in the Nexus because she's an "echo", which is an ill thought out and undefined plot convenience based on the character being mysterious and all-knowing.)

1. Picard a wimp - Between the crying at the beginning, and the contrast between his and Kirk's fighting style at the end, Picard comes out of this looking like a wimp. I mean, compare that to First Contact, where he's all of a sudden this awesome action star!
2. Data a wimp - Similar to Picard, the way they introduced the emotion chip to Data made him seem something of a wimp for much of the movie. This is a movie, and these two characters are arguably your lead heroes! It just doesn't make sense.

I disagree with this - they show emotional vulnerability but come through in the end. Remember the stellar cartography scene, when Picard tells Data he has to deal with his emotions and do his duty. This is more interesting than bland heroes who never experience fear or self-doubt.
_

 

[Timo]

I don't think ST:GEN would have been worth making if it merely played it by the numbers, using a heroic hero, showing-not-telling, concentrating on one set of heroes familiar from one TV show rather than mixing things up, etc.

Sometimes, movies need to show courage and backbone. The sixth sequel might be a good point... That, or a reboot, prequel, or other such pivot point.

By far the best thing about The Phantom Menace was an opening introducing heroes who are absolutely superior to the villains, totally outgunning and outwitting them to the point to making them wet their pants. So what if the audience never has to fear the heroes failing or even getting hurt? The moral dilemmas they have to face are now much more interesting, as they can't hide behind the dubious "we're the underdogs" excuse when killing, cheating and hurting.

...Essentially, the same was always true of TNG, where the E-D outgunned everybody in a way Kirk's old garbage scow never did. It was fun to see her brought down by a midget then!

Timo Saloniemi