Thoughts on "Generations"

[FormerLurker]

That last is pure fan speculation...

That's why I said "possibly," although the film heavily implies that the Nexus is the reason for her abilities.

...and she is not necessarily the same species as Soran.

What? She was with the other El-Aurian refugees when she's rescued. It was clearly stated that Soran was El-Aurian, and that his planet was destroyed by the Borg, just like we knew about Guinan. What, you think she was just hitching a ride with some homeless people?

Please say yes, eyeresist. Then I'm not the only one, and these people have less reason to think I'm crazy.

 

[Dukhat]

The only thing that is said of the El-Aurians is that they're a race of listeners.

That had already been established back when TNG was still on the air.

Guinan (in TNG): "I tend bar, and I listen."

Soran (in GEN): "People call us a race of listeners, Captain."

And I'm sure that Martus Mazur asshole in DS9 also said something about listening (and that was the very first time the term "El-Aurian" was used, even before GEN, since the original intent was that the Martus Mazur character was one of Guinan's sons/grandsons/whatever.)

Please say yes, eyeresist. Then I'm not the only one, and these people have less reason to think I'm crazy.

 

[eyeresist]

That last is pure fan speculation...

That's why I said "possibly," although the film heavily implies that the Nexus is the reason for her abilities.

...and she is not necessarily the same species as Soran.

What? She was with the other El-Aurian refugees when she's rescued. It was clearly stated that Soran was El-Aurian, and that his planet was destroyed by the Borg, just like we knew about Guinan. What, you think she was just hitching a ride with some homeless people?

Please say yes, eyeresist. Then I'm not the only one, and these people have less reason to think I'm crazy.

Alright then: yes!
The ship was carrying refugees from the El-Aurian planet after the Borg attack, but there's no guarantee that every passenger was a native of the planet. They were presumably an advanced civilisation (they had contact with the Federation and Soran was a capable scientist), so there were probably a number of aliens on the planet. I can well imagine that Guinan was simply caught up in local events while wandering the galaxy. It fits with her mysterious background.

The idea that Guinan gets her powers from the Nexus doesn't make much sense, as her "echo" is isolated from the universe in a zone of non-time/non-space. There's nothing useful it could perceive about the universe, and there's no indication that Guinan and "echo" are in contact (how could she miss the Nexus so much if she was still in it?).

 

[eyeresist]

Generations is the one where they promote Worf, give Data the emotion chip, kill Picard's family, explain Guinan and her people, kill Lursa and Betor, bring back Kirk, destroy the Enterprise and fight a genuine mad scientist and none of it was done especially well. They should have pick three or less elements and focused.

And yet, oddly, one complaint I hear a lot about NEM is that there aren't deeper subplots for all the characters. Apparently some people are really interested in what Crusher does next.

 

[Lance]

The only thing that is said of the El-Aurians is that they're a race of listeners.

That had already been established back when TNG was still on the air.

Guinan (in TNG): "I tend bar, and I listen."

Soran (in GEN): "People call us a race of listeners, Captain."

Well, to be completely fair, in the former case it was only Guinan who ''listens''. Which makes sense, given she's tending a bar.

It wasn't until Generations that this characteristic was ascribed to others of her people... indeed, it wasn't until Generations that her people were even given a name.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Really, most of Generation's flaws can be boiled down to one thing: This movie should have been about the TNG cast, not about Kirk or anything else to do with TOS. The "passing of the torch" crap had been over and done with seven years before. It was completely unnecessary to involve TOS in this film other than the obligatory "Kirk meets Picard" schtick, which wasn't anywhere near as satisfying as it could have been if done correctly.

Well observed.

If a series--an alleged syndication success for SEVEN years still needed to feed / catapult from the strength / pop cultural power of TOS, then TNG as a film series was almost doomed to fail. As it stands, no one talks about TNG movies, and certainly do not admit to a wealth of fond memories of the seriesm which launched on a sour, manipulative ("ooh! look, Trekkies--its Kirk!") note.

 

[Dukhat]

The ship was carrying refugees from the El-Aurian planet after the Borg attack, but there's no guarantee that every passenger was a native of the planet. They were presumably an advanced civilisation (they had contact with the Federation and Soran was a capable scientist), so there were probably a number of aliens on the planet. I can well imagine that Guinan was simply caught up in local events while wandering the galaxy. It fits with her mysterious background.

No offense, but that sounds way more convoluted of an explanation as to why she was on that refugee ship than to simply say that she was the same race as the other El-Aurians, but whatever floats your boat.

The idea that Guinan gets her powers from the Nexus doesn't make much sense, as her "echo" is isolated from the universe in a zone of non-time/non-space. There's nothing useful it could perceive about the universe, and there's no indication that Guinan and "echo" are in contact (how could she miss the Nexus so much if she was still in it?).

Well, it wasn't my idea. But it seemed to be the intent of the film, whether it was spoon-fed to us or not. I don't particularly think it makes much sense either, but there you go.

 

[eyeresist]

That said, I was impressed by the scene of Picard telling Troy about his family. The writing and acting are very strong.

I was listening to the writers' commentary track for the film and ironically, that's a scene Brannon Braga is pretty vocal about not liking on the grounds that no one wants to see Picard cry.

I agree with Braga. And that's something I never thought I'd type.

Related to this, crying was regarded as a manly behaviour until quite recently:

http://aeon.co/magazine/society/is-there-anything-wrong-with-men-who-cry/

 

[Lance]

Really, most of Generation's flaws can be boiled down to one thing: This movie should have been about the TNG cast, not about Kirk or anything else to do with TOS. The "passing of the torch" crap had been over and done with seven years before. It was completely unnecessary to involve TOS in this film other than the obligatory "Kirk meets Picard" schtick, which wasn't anywhere near as satisfying as it could have been if done correctly.

Well observed.

If a series--an alleged syndication success for SEVEN years still needed to feed / catapult from the strength / pop cultural power of TOS, then TNG as a film series was almost doomed to fail. As it stands, no one talks about TNG movies, and certainly do not admit to a wealth of fond memories of the seriesm which launched on a sour, manipulative ("ooh! look, Trekkies--its Kirk!") note.

I can sort of understand the studio's wanting to ''play it safe'' -- the movies, potentially, have got a much wider international audience than even the TV episodes do, so it was perhaps with an eye on this that they felt the need to ease in the TNG crew with whom some of those 'general audiences' may not have been as intimately familiar with -- but from a story point of view, the 'Star Trek' in the Star Trek format should be enough to sustain dropping any new cast in, without having the pander to concerns over audience recognition. ''Passing the torch'' feels utterly symbolic and, ultimately, like a waste of 90 minutes.

The other thing that makes the decision feel like madness is that TNG was just ending it's 7 year run on a high, and was arguably at it's cultural zeitgeist..... in 1994 TNG had well and truly proven itself..... so, just about the silliest thing *anybody* could have done was to say, ''Gee, nobody knows about these new guys, we need to somehow link them with the old guys so that people know this is still Star Trek''.

 

[DWF]

the idea to bring in the TOS people to bridgeth egap so to speak was suggested by Patrick Stewart so both scripts were written to use both crews in some manner.

 

[at Quark's]

I like this movie!

Not because of the plot, which isn't that strong. But for a theme that returns again and again: you don't live forever --and your life may end quite unexpectedly. If that would happen, could you look back and be content with what you did, and let go? Or would you try to cling to life, even at the cost of others?

We see this in many forms

* Kirk sacrificing his life in the beginning of the movie (though perhaps it wasn't a conscious sacrifice as such)
* Picard hearing about the loss of his nephew, which causes him to realise that he has more days behind him than before him, and is he content with wat he has to show for it?
* Soran, getting obsessed with returning to the nexus and hence not 'burn in the fire of time', even though it will cost millions of people their lives
* Picard realising that he may be in "heaven" but that he should leave it for the greater good
* Picard and Kirk mutually convincing each other they should 'make a difference', Picard by arguing Kirk should leave the Nexus, Kirk by arguing Picard should not accept some desk job
* Kirk accepting his death with equinamity, because he 'did make a difference'.
* Picard musing ith Riker on the wreck of the Enterprise about the transitory nature of life (and even of the Enterprise itself).

and these are only the examples that come to my mind just now.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

The other thing that makes the decision feel like madness is that TNG was just ending it's 7 year run on a high, and was arguably at it's cultural zeitgeist..... in 1994 TNG had well and truly proven itself..... so, just about the silliest thing *anybody* could have done was to say, ''Gee, nobody knows about these new guys, we need to somehow link them with the old guys so that people know this is still Star Trek''.

I saw it more as a "Let's maximize the box office potential by appealing to Original Series and Next Generation fans at the same time!"

 

[Dukhat]

I saw it more as a "Let's maximize the box office potential by appealing to Original Series and Next Generation fans at the same time!"

While that's undoubtedly true, if that was really what they wanted to accomplish, it could have been handled so much better than "let's bring Kirk into the future in the most convoluted way possible, just so he can meet Picard in some log cabin and then die by falling off a bridge saving some planet nobody cares about."

 

[eyeresist]

I like this movie! Not because of the plot, which isn't that strong. But for a theme that returns again and again: you don't live forever --and your life may end quite unexpectedly. If that would happen, could you look back and be content with what you did, and let go? Or would you try to cling to life, even at the cost of others?

Interesting...