Thoughts on "deep canon"

[trekkist]

Exactly. Whether one invokes subspace corridors or changing subspace "weather," altering the X factor, 4 days puts Earth inside the Klingon Empire...

John Ford's novel The FInal Reflection had the first Klingon envoy to Earth en route for some number of months at Warp 5 or so (citations from memory, as I'm lazy), which would have made for an interesting 1st season to "Enterprise" ("We can't get involved, we're on a diplomatic mission!")...but alas. Doubtless a a lowly "tech guy" or two protested to the Powers that Were, to no avail.

 

[blssdwlf]

My main problem with Kronos only being 4 days away is that Earth hadn't been conquered by them as soon as Klingons got warp drive. That's just stupidly close.

Maybe it is from "The Motion Picture"? V'Ger was ~3 days away from Earth coming from the Klingon border at Warp 7. The other thing I think might be different is that in TOS, the space warp was discovered by an Alpha Centauri guy named Zefram Cochrane and the tech spread to all the known galaxy versus each race discovering warp drive on their own at different times in later Trek incarnations. All IMHO.

 

[Deks]

My main problem with Kronos only being 4 days away is that Earth hadn't been conquered by them as soon as Klingons got warp drive. That's just stupidly close.

We can just treat the 4 days there line as non-canon (aka, discard it). Because there is no way Quonos can be that close.
Given that Warp 4 or 4.5 is about 100 times speed of light, even reaching Alpha Centauri would take about 2 weeks (which is about 4 LY's away).
Vulcan could 'possibly' be situated there, but we were never given canonical star charts which explain where would each member planet be.

Also, you have to keep in mind that Vulcan is semi-nearest populated planet next to SOL in Trek... so, its likely Vulcans prevented the Klingons from expanding into the direction of Earth... and its possible that the Klingons didn't acquire Warp technology from the Urgh until well after Vulcans were already in space (after their second societal reformation).

T'Pol did mention that there were very few Warp capable species when they were in space... so its unlikely Klingons had Warp technology by then (but until later)... or if they did (which I don't think is the case), they just didn't expand into that direction.

 

[trekkist]

>Maybe it is from "The Motion Picture"? V'Ger was ~3 days away from Earth coming from the Klingon border at Warp 7.

Warp seven is nearly 3 times warp 5's velocity (regardless of whether one adds a factor to WF cubed or not), and "the border" makes that somewhat more palatable.

On the other hand, maybe we're all thinking two dimensionally in our objections to Archer's travel time. After all, Euorpe is about 4 days from the U.S. by ship (via which transport WWII was supported), and the volume contained within a 4 day radius travel time encompasses MANY stars (anyone know a website with an equation for that? "number of stars within a given diameter sphere," that is). Thus, a sizable empire might well be a mere hundred or so light years in radius...

 

[blssdwlf]

Maybe it is from "The Motion Picture"? V'Ger was ~3 days away from Earth coming from the Klingon border at Warp 7.

Warp seven is nearly 3 times warp 5's velocity (regardless of whether one adds a factor to WF cubed or not), and "the border" makes that somewhat more palatable.

That's only a problem if you stick dogmatically to a formula. If you allow for space terrain to affect the speed of ships at warp then you can have a scenario where V'Ger's flight path at Warp 7 is only a little faster than NX-01's flight path at Warp 4.5 between Earth and the Klingon homeworld. V'Ger could have flew through and near volumes of space that slowed down ships while NX-01 took a path that avoided that and obtained higher speeds. The overall distance could easily be over a thousand light years.

 

[trekkist]

>That's only a problem if you stick dogmatically to a formula.

I had to think about this, and consult my old co-author as to exactly what conclusions we reached and WHY.

Superfluous "That Which Survives" quotes:

RAHDA: It doesn't make any sense. But somehow I'd say that in a flash we've been knocked one thousand light years away from where we were.
SPOCK: Nine hundred and ninety point seven light years to be exact, Lieutenant.

…

SPOCK: Mister Scott, since the Enterprise is obviously functional, I suggest we return to our starting place at top warp speed.
SCOTT: Aye, sir. But even at that it'll take a while to get there.
SPOCK: In that case, Mister Scott, I suggest we start at once. Can you give me warp eight?

SCOTT: Aye, sir. And maybe a wee bit more. I'll sit on the warp engines myself and nurse them.
SPOCK: That position, Mister Scott, would not only be unavailing but also undignified. Lieutenant Rahda, plot a course.
RAHDA: Already plotted and laid in, sir.
SPOCK: Good. Then prepare to come to warp eight.

…

RAHDA: We're holding warp eight point four, sir. If we can maintain it, our estimated time of arrival is eleven and one half solar hours.
SPOCK: Eleven point three three seven hours, Lieutenant. I wish you would be more precise.


Thus, Spock cites a trip of [something less than] 990.7 light years in 11.337 hours at warp 8.4

8.3 cubed is 592.704 cee

990.7 years x 8760 hours/year = 8,678,532 hours

Divided by 11.337 = 765,505.16 cee

Divided by 592.704 = 1291.547

Knowing full well that the latter number (which we initially dubbed "Cochrane's Constant") might vary (based on something we had not at that point "identified"), we applied it to all other time/distance citations…most particularly, "Only 1/16 of a parsec away, sir…we should be there in seconds" ("Bread & Circuses")…and found it worked in nearly all cases.

"Who Mourns for Adonais?" was an exception ("We might never get help this far out"—33.78 light years??), as was 300 years' travel to Andromeda at a speed far faster than normal (despite the fact that
2.537 million light years in 300 years = 8456.66 cee = warp 9.589 @ WF cubed).

The latter, coupled with the "star desert" of "Squire" and the "star charting" of "The Corbomite Maneuver" brought us to the idea of "average spatial mass density" influencing "Cochrane's [factor]." In a "star desert" ("Squire"), or between galaxies (or for some reason, in the vicinity of Pollux), warp factors fell to their minimum values, i.e., WF cubed.

I think I'm repeating myself. In terms of references, I'm well aware I'm belaboring the obvious; most or all of the folks who hang out here know not just TOS but many a sequel series so well my citations are (so to speak) redundant. My point, though, is twofold:

1)Once charted, fastest routes from anywhere to anywhere would be known (if perhaps far from straight lines). In relation to your comment, the NX would of course assume the quickest route…as would, presumably, V'ger (whose thought processes might be unfathomable, but whose desires were powerful).

2)Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence…but we tried to avoid unsupportable speculation. Thus, though we toyed with the idea of "space weather" (by which the "correction factor" might vary over time, but in the same region(s) of space), we saw no evidence of it…and thus, didn't argue for it.

Anyone want to hear what "standard orbit" really is?

 

[yotsuya]

The problem with taking everything on screen at face value is that writers are not consistent. And there is definitely no consistency between writers. In TOS, the writing staff's main focus was on drama. They fixed continuity they caught, but there was a lot they didn't and certain ideas changed over the 3 years of the original series.

Expand that out to all the series, TOS through Enterprise, and you have things that are stable an consistent and things that are wildly all over the place. Officially the two warp tables (Enterprise through the original cast films, and TNG and after) are the velocities. But in practice, the writers weren't paying any attention to that. They write what is dramatic and works for the story, tech be damned. So in interpreting the tech, you have to keep in mind that the writers had other things on their mind and we are stuck with what the final product is. Even later when the Okuda's were working hard to keep continuity, there were failings due to the needs of writers and their stories.

 

[trekkist]

>The problem with taking everything on screen at face value is that writers are not consistent.
>So in interpreting the tech, you have to keep in mind that the writers had other things on their mind and we are stuck with what the final product is.

Ah yes...seemingly t0-the-peanut-gallery advice to the (apparently) naive tech thinkers of the mid-'80s who in fact "discovered"/derived a surprisingly consistent tech of several varieties throughout TOS...derived a logical explanation for TOS artificial gravity in TAS...saw ftl-impulse displayed in Wrath of Khan, (repeatedly) in TNG, at the start of ST 6, and IIRC once in Voyager...and in my case, a few years back, finally devised a timeline consistent with all (pre-Discovery) series historical citations...

Honestly, yotsuya...and I don't think I'm being touchy here...that 'advice' reads a bit--what's the word?--condescendingly, if one is at the receiving end, doesn't it? Mind you, I'm aware my phrasing could be taken as arrogant ("Hey! You experts! See what I found back in the dark ages! (were YOU 'there' then?")--but I don't mean it that way. I'm merely frustrated.

I've come calling with this stuff more than a few times, seeking scathing and equally informed critique(s), to no avail. "Georgi was joking," someone will say of "Aye sir, full impulse" (said of Riker's "Full impulse" order in "Conspiracy"). "That's just a TSI (third season inconsistency), as you'd know if you were a member of 'First Fandom'" (Franz Joseph wrote me once). "Yeah, we've all been up and down this road before, your post is TLDR, yawn."

Of course "...there were failings due to the needs of writers and their stories." I'm not really a Thermian; I just played one back then, and channel that late-20s trekkist on boards from time to time. Nor but jokingly would I suggest what I've here called "deep canon" is the real Trek universe seeping into the shows, "original intents" be damned.

Nevertheless, it moves...as does a TOS ship in the constantly-impulse-boosted, off-equatorial geosynchronous suspension essential (then) to transport site contact, from which it commences instantly to fall when power is diverted or interrupted. Yep, the out-of-universe reason for that was writer's ignorance and producers' "whoops" ("We science fiction writers have a word for that: it's called a 'mistake' -- GR, TMOST, 1968)--but that explanation is supposed to be off-limits in discussions of theories of imaginary tech...right?

Or am I seeing bored dismissal where none was intended?

 

[trekkist]

Appropos of nothing at all:

http://www.starshipmodeler.com/wallpapers.htm (April 2022 entry)

is very pretty...but impossible. How do I know that? Due to doing 'deep canon' for 2001-odd pages in my manuscript-in-progress It's Origin and Purpose Demystified: The Alternate Worlds of Clarke & Kubrick's 2001.

 

[blssdwlf]

The problem with taking everything on screen at face value is that writers are not consistent. And there is definitely no consistency between writers. In TOS, the writing staff's main focus was on drama. They fixed continuity they caught, but there was a lot they didn't and certain ideas changed over the 3 years of the original series.

Expand that out to all the series, TOS through Enterprise, and you have things that are stable an consistent and things that are wildly all over the place. Officially the two warp tables (Enterprise through the original cast films, and TNG and after) are the velocities. But in practice, the writers weren't paying any attention to that. They write what is dramatic and works for the story, tech be damned. So in interpreting the tech, you have to keep in mind that the writers had other things on their mind and we are stuck with what the final product is. Even later when the Okuda's were working hard to keep continuity, there were failings due to the needs of writers and their stories.

Or in the Trek Tech forum try to rationalize what we observe. Yes, at the end of the day we're all interpreting what we see on screen and choosing which parts and how much to include in our head canon. That also includes "behind the scenes" stuff. For example, it doesn't matter to me if a writer thought yeah, the warp drive blinks twice whenever the ship goes to warp if it isn't seen on screen. But for some people it does matter so it is always good that we're all aware of what our reference points are and which data we're pulling from to discuss.

 

[blssdwlf]

>That's only a problem if you stick dogmatically to a formula.

I had to think about this, and consult my old co-author as to exactly what conclusions we reached and WHY.

Knowing full well that the latter number (which we initially dubbed "Cochrane's Constant") might vary (based on something we had not at that point "identified"), we applied it to all other time/distance citations…most particularly, "Only 1/16 of a parsec away, sir…we should be there in seconds" ("Bread & Circuses")…and found it worked in nearly all cases.

Rather than a constant, I'd suggest a variable based on the space terrain or space density (or make up whatever you want that fits). In addition to warp speeds being very slow near a star or planet it is very fast between star systems and is slow outside of the galaxy.

For example, here is something I cooked up 11 years ago by observing what was aired. A warp driven ship or object slows significantly down to below sublight as it is near a star or a planet. As the ship gets out of a system she can go much faster.

"Who Mourns for Adonais?" was an exception ("We might never get help this far out"—33.78 light years??),

The 33LY is from what we know of the distance to Earth. However, we don't know Kirk's context here. "We might never get help this far out" could also mean that they are well off normal routes as Starfleet is only getting around to mapping these specifc planets.

I think I'm repeating myself. In terms of references, I'm well aware I'm belaboring the obvious; most or all of the folks who hang out here know not just TOS but many a sequel series so well my citations are (so to speak) redundant. My point, though, is twofold:

1)Once charted, fastest routes from anywhere to anywhere would be known (if perhaps far from straight lines). In relation to your comment, the NX would of course assume the quickest route…as would, presumably, V'ger (whose thought processes might be unfathomable, but whose desires were powerful).

Alternatively, V'ger's entry point into Federation space from Klingon space took it thru some slow spots whereas NX-01 didn't take the same route.

2)Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence…but we tried to avoid unsupportable speculation. Thus, though we toyed with the idea of "space weather" (by which the "correction factor" might vary over time, but in the same region(s) of space), we saw no evidence of it…and thus, didn't argue for it.

We know space weather like a magnetic ion storm can carry ships great distances like in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and "Galileo Seven". Kirk had to order additional thrust while warping thru an ion storm in "Court Martial". But for most other speed observations, space weather didn't appear to be a factor.

 

[trekkist]

>"We might never get help this far out" could also mean that they are well off normal routes as Starfleet is only getting around to mapping these specifc planets.

Unless Pollux is located in a slow-warp zone (whether permanent or "weather" related), this seems unlikely, given "The Alternative Factor"--

KIRK; Aye, aye, sir. Can you assign me other starships as a reserve?
BARSTOW [on viewscreen]: Negative. I'm evacuating all Starfleet units and personnel within a hundred parsecs of your position.

We don't know where Lazarus' planet is, of course...but it is more than (presumably much more than) 100 parsecs from Earth/Barstow's position/Starfleet Headquarters (pick your favorite).

(BTW, I read with great interest the "are ST's 'parsecs' OUR parsecs?" thread--and can't buy it. Did the writers mean them to be our parsecs? Certainly. Is there non-refutable proof they're not? I don't think so)

>Alternatively, V'ger's entry point into Federation space from Klingon space took it thru some slow spots whereas NX-01 didn't take the same route.

That I can certainly buy, given we know nothing of course, position, or indeed, the size or relative direction vis a vis Earth of the Klingon border.

>We know space weather like a magnetic ion storm can carry ships great distances like in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and "Galileo Seven". Kirk had to order additional thrust while warping thru an ion storm in "Court Martial". But for most other speed observations, space weather didn't appear to be a factor.

Well...one must be precise in referencing technobabble. Valiant was swept (IIRC) about half a light year outside the galaxy by a magnetic (no word 'ion') storm, but Kirk & Company's lack of surprise at "finding' it so far from Earth--and lack of ANY mention of the storm's having swept it 1000s or 10s of 1000s of light years -- suggested to myself & my "Tech Manual" coauthor (as many another episode proved) the pre-Warp drive usage of hyperlight impulse propulsion.

In re: "Court Martial," the unedited transcript goes:

(On the courtroom viewscreen)
UHURA: Meteorology reports ion storm upcoming, Captain.
KIRK: We'll need somebody in the pod for readings.
SPOCK: Mister Finney is top of duty roster, Captain.
KIRK: Post him.
SPOCK: Attention, Commander Finney, report to pod for reading on ion plates.
FINNEY [OC]: Message Received.
SPOCK: Officer posted, Captain.
(The ship suddenly judders)
KIRK: Stand by on alert status, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Acknowledged.
HANSON: Approaching ion storm, sir.
KIRK: Warp factor one, Mister Hanson.
HANSON: Warp one, sir.
[Courtroom]

SHAW: Reverse. Stop. Go forward with magnification on the panel. Freeze that. Captain Kirk is now signalling a Yellow Alert. Go forward, normal view.

[Bridge]

(On courtroom viewscreen.)
UHURA: Call from the pod, sir.
KIRK: Tie in.
FINNEY [OC]: Finney here, Captain. Ion readings in progress.
KIRK: Make it fast, Ben. I may have to go to Red Alert.
FINNEY [OC]: Affirmative.
KIRK: Hold our course, Mister Hanson.
HANSON: Aye, aye, sir. Natural vibrations, force two, Captain. Force three.
KIRK: Engineering, then ion pod.
UHURA: Aye, aye, sir.
CREWMAN [OC]: Engineering.
KIRK: One third more thrust.
CREWMAN [OC]: Working.
FINNEY [OC]: Ion pod.
KIRK: Stand by to get out of there, Ben.
FINNEY [OC]: Aye, aye, sir.
HANSON: Force five, sir.
KIRK: Steady as she goes, Mister Hanson.
(And the close up on the Captain's panel shows...)

Presumably Kirk slowed the ship to warp one (so to minimize the storm's "impact"), thereafter adding "one third more thrust" to...well, I dunno. Warp one can't be lightspeed (an impossible velocity); we don't know its value. "Thrust" implies application of a force providing acceleration from one's present speed to a greater speed...but though it takes power to maintain a given warp factor, and power to accelerate from a given factor to another (or in the case of reverse thrust, to stop the ship), I don't recall another example of an "additional thrust" order being uttered while at warp. Taken literally, Kirk seems to be saying "Add a third more thrust to the amount required to maintain Warp One" (from which...as with any factor...would slowly decay to sublight if all thrust/power/acceleration ceased--as in "Menagerie," where Mendez says (once shuttle's power is gone) "We coast" -- NOT "Well, now we're sublight").

Again, to be precise:

SPOCK: Stop forward momentum, Mister Latimer.
LATIMER: I can't, sir. Nothing happens.
SPOCK: Galileo to Enterprise. Galileo to Enterprise. Come in, please.
BOMA: Ionic interference, Mister Spock.
MCCOY: We're being drawn right into it.
SPOCK: Galileo to Enterprise. Galileo to Enterprise. We are out of control, being pulled directly into the heart of Murasaki three one two. Being hit by violent radiation on outer hull. Course three point two five

[Bridge]

KIRK: Anything at all?
UHURA: Nothing clear, Captain. Just a few words about being pulled off course.
...
MCCOY: What happened?
BOMA: I can't be sure, but I'd say that, the magnetic potential of the effect was (McCoy gives him a tissue for his nose bleed) Thank you. Was such that, as we gathered speed, it was multiplied geometrically. And we were simply shot into the centre of the effect. Like a projectile.

For the record, "magnetic space storm" and "ion storm" are technobabble, no more explained on air than in the technobabble-rich environment of ST: Voyager. That said, I'm not entirely sure the former is the same as what acted on Galileo in the vicinity of a "quasar or quasar-like phenomena" (a term rendered anachronistic by post-TOS understanding of quasars being VERY extragalactic (though one of several theories at the time explained their red shifts by their being stars moving rapidly through the Milky Way due having been ejected from the galactic core...believe it or not).

In re which, a non-Trek quote:

Lecture 20. The Redshift Controversy.

Quasars have been the subject of controversy since their discovery in 1963 by Maarten Schmidt (1929- ) and Jesse Greenstein (1909-2002).

Are quasars located at cosmological distances, as Hubble's redshift/distance relationship assumes?

Or, are they evidence of a serious flaw in our understanding of the natural laws that govern the behavior of large-scale phenomena?

How does the scientific community respond to individuals who develop and promote views that question mainstream ideas about how the world works?

...
The basic elements of the controversy surrounding the interpretation of quasar redshifts were on the table within a year following the discovery of quasars. Creative speculation exposed the diversity underlying the superficial unanimity of the astronomical community. The difficult process of developing plausible alternatives to the conventional cosmological view began in earnest.

During the period which followed, roughly 1964-67, many theories about the nature of quasars were suggested by a wide segment of the astronomical and physics community. These theories helped shape the direction of the redshift controversy and the form of the two principal rival theories that emerged.

Articles in the popular press emphasized the mysterious nature of quasars and listed numerous speculations presented by scientists at the many conferences which were held to discuss them. In 1967, Jesse Greenstein was moved to write the following lament:

Horrid quasar
Near or far,
This truth to you I must confess:
My heart for you is full of hate
O super star,
Imploded gas,
Exploded trash,
You glowing speck upon a plate,
Of Einstein's world you've made a mess!

https://faculty.humanities.uci.edu/bjbecker/ExploringtheCosmos/lecture20.html

(a poem my 7 year old brain learned by heart on reading the selfsame Jesse Greenstein's "The Question of the Quasars," in the 1966 World Book Science Year--to which volumes an uncle had gotten me a subscription)

 

[Henoch]

Star Trek Canon: From WNMHGB and The Galileo Seven, magnetic potentials geometrically multiply the speed of warp drive ships. For both the SS Valiant and the shuttlecraft Galileo, it resulted in multiplying theirs speeds by 1000's to 100,000's times the speed of light.

Star Trek Theory: Strong magnetic storms periodically radiate from the galactic center of galaxy following the arcing shape of the galactic arms. These magnetic storms are very long, even some extending from the center of the galaxy and reaching past the galactic rim. Additionally, these magnetic storms are thin, wave-like ribbons or strings that are wiggling/drifting/moving away from the galactic center. At the origin region of these magnetic storms is a vast energy field around the galactic core called the Great Barrier, and at the terminus point, these storms dissipate at the rim of the galaxy, there interacting with some unknown energy/matter to form a negative energy field called the Galactic Barrier. Diving into one of these magnetic storms at warp draws the ship to the centerline of the ribbon and accelerates a ship geometrically along its length, either toward the galactic center or toward the galactic rim depending which direction the ship was generally moving. Once in the magnetic storm, ships can leave it at any point along its length if its impulse drive system is powerful enough to overcome the storm's magnetic potential. Finding and charting these magnetic storm ribbons is extremely important for space faring civilizations.

For both the SS Valiant and the shuttlecraft Galileo, their impulse drives weren't powerful enough to pull themselves out of those very strong magnetic storms. The SS Valiant was spit out a half lightyear outside of the galaxy by an exceptional long magnetic storm ribbon, while the Galileo was pulled into the center of a local magnetic storm and probably dislodged out of the storm by the near pass to the planet's magnetic field they crashed on. Earth's early warp ships were not knowledgable of these magnetic storms which accounts for the mysterious loss of many ships. Finding and charting these moving magnetic storm ribbons allows warp ships with powerful enough impulse drives to transverse vast distances along a galactic arm. Most storm ribbons are fragmented (only a very few light years in length) while a rare few are vast in length (10,000's light years). In WNMHGB, the Enterprise was able to get to the galactic rim possibly by riding the same magnetic storm ribbon that captured the SS Valiant, but the Enterprise got off before they exited the galaxy. This could explain how the Enterprise could be in the same area to find the Valiant's ship recorder, plus explain why they were near a planet set up for cracking lithium so far out on the rim; the initial explorers/developers came to set up the planet operations, then subsequent automated ore freighters were all using the same ribbon, too. In ST:V TFF, the Enterprise was able to travel to the galactic center in hours; using this theory, they used a charted ribbon that extended to the galactic center.

Star Trek Theory (expanded): Advanced space civilizations, such as the Federation and the Romulan and Klingon Empires, can laboriously build magnetic corridors between important star systems using space buoys that allows warp ships to traverse the corridor in hours or days. Low warp ships even with weak impulse drives are able to use the corridors to safely get on and get off.

YMMV a lot.

 

[blssdwlf]

>"We might never get help this far out" could also mean that they are well off normal routes as Starfleet is only getting around to mapping these specifc planets.

Unless Pollux is located in a slow-warp zone (whether permanent or "weather" related), this seems unlikely, given "The Alternative Factor"--

Or Pollux is simply not near a normal route for reasons like nothing was interesting there to explore or colonize when initially passed by. For example, if you're a mile away from a highway in a large grass field and you collapse you could be to be too far out for anyone to look in that direction and certainly no one is going to drive up that field from the highway under normal circumstances to find you.

>
We don't know where Lazarus' planet is, of course...but it is more than (presumably much more than) 100 parsecs from Earth/Barstow's position/Starfleet Headquarters (pick your favorite).

If you're going to evacuate everyone in 100 parsecs from Kirk's position in "The Alternative Factor" your ships will head to known locations of colonists, etc and not detour into space where no is at, correct?

>
Well...one must be precise in referencing technobabble. Valiant was swept (IIRC) about half a light year outside the galaxy by a magnetic (no word 'ion') storm, but Kirk & Company's lack of surprise at "finding' it so far from Earth--and lack of ANY mention of the storm's having swept it 1000s or 10s of 1000s of light years -- suggested to myself & my "Tech Manual" coauthor (as many another episode proved) the pre-Warp drive usage of hyperlight impulse propulsion.
Presumably Kirk slowed the ship to warp one (so to minimize the storm's "impact"), thereafter adding "one third more thrust" to...well, I dunno.

I was just pointing out that you should not count out space weather in impacting travel times if space weather is identified in the episode.

Regarding Warp drive I consider it as just a faster Impulse drive. Both systems use thrusters for acceleration and both can be slowed down or sped up by space weather (as well as the local space terrain).

I'm in the Impulse drive is capable of FTL camp.

>
Warp one can't be lightspeed (an impossible velocity); we don't know its value.

It is true that in TOS we do not know the value of Warp One and it is also true that Warp can result in slower than sublight speeds and faster-than-light speeds. Warp is variable depending on the circumstances.

Light speed is not an impossible velocity in TOS since the First Federation cube approached the Enterprise at light speed.

 

[aridas sofia]

I wouldn’t even depend on the “chi factor” as Mandel wrote it. It’s too linked to measurable phenomenon - matter density. If instead effective warp speed were strongly influenced by subspace matter density, ah… that would do the trick. A writer would have pretty much free reign. And if the Klingon Empire is four days from Earth on a single route, then just plug that hole. Defend it in such a way that anything re entering normal space exactly where it is known it would have to re enter normal space is met and, if unfriendly, destroyed.

This by the way, was the premise behind perimeter action ships sitting in wait at predictable places. The only ambiguities were drifts in those chi routes. And the possibility an intruder would try to take a 100x harder warp headwind on.

 

[trekkist]

> the shuttlecraft Galileo, their impulse drives weren't powerful enough

Uh...Galileo had warp drive, as have all shuttles save TNG shuttlepods (in one of which Geordi was taken in deep space by Romulans in "The Mind's Eye"). Each generation of shuttles have warp nacelles matching the "style" of their motherships' nacelles. In "Metamorphosis," the nacelles are referenced:

SPOCK: Helm does not answer, Captain.
KIRK: Neither do the pods.

as is their source of power/propulsion:

SULU: Steady. No, Mister Scott, bearing three ten mark thirty five just cleared. No antimatter residue.
SCOTT: All scanners, spherical sweep. Range, maximum. They'll have to pick it up.
UHURA: If the shuttlecraft powered away, Mister Scott, but if it were just towed?
SCOTT: There'd still be traces of residual matter floating around, Lieutenant.
SULU: Bearing two ten mark forty. Strong particle concentration. We're on it, Mister Scott.
SCOTT: Lay on that course. Maintain scanning.

>Star Trek Canon: From WNMHGB and The Galileo Seven, magnetic potentials geometrically multiply the speed of warp drive ships. For both the SS Valiant and the shuttlecraft Galileo, it resulted in multiplying theirs speeds by 1000's to 100,000's times the speed of light.

I'm still not convinced WNM's "magnetic space storm" is the same as what Murasaki did to the Galileo. The latter's speed multiplying does jibe with Boma's line, though.

>The SS Valiant was spit out a half lightyear outside of the galaxy by an exceptional long magnetic storm ribbon,

Seems to me if Valiant were a sublight ship that its having been pulled 10s or 10s of 1000s of light years by a storm would have warranted mention even more than did "half a light year out of the galaxy." Interpretation is sketchy given we know the screenwriters believed/presumed impulse to be strictly sublight, of course...but surely someone (if only Kellam de Forrest) asked of GR, "HOW did the Valiant get that far out on impulse?" (I'd love to see KdF's notes on WNM).

> these magnetic storms are thin, wave-like ribbons or strings that are wiggling/drifting/moving away from the galactic center. At the origin region of these magnetic storms is a vast energy field around the galactic core called the Great Barrier, and at the terminus point...

Henoch, I worship you. This is gold-pressed latinum. Is it yours?

>Light speed is not an impossible velocity in TOS since the First Federation cube approached the Enterprise at light speed.

SULU: Sir, contact with an object. It's moving toward us. No visual contact yet.
SPOCK: Deflectors, full intensity.
SULU: It's coming at light speed.

Y'know...I just can't buy this. I know I'm arguing from a "lines must be taken literally" point of view...Scotty's Book was based on that, as is my mindset to this day...but light speed? The velocity at which the mass of objects with mass is infinite? Surely not! ("I contradict myself? Very well

Rationalizations, in increasing order of BS content:

1)a readily-understandable reference for the sake of 1960s viewers
2)an approximation, translating to "It's coming at the highest possible sublight speed, which is to say, 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 cee
3)a calmly-delivered report of something the Federation "knows" to be impossible (per Einstein). Translation: "Captain sir, I dunno what the hell it is, but be aware its velocity reflects its technology being equivalent to magic."

Are there any other examples of material objects traveling at exactly light speed, in any series?

(in re: my apparent interpretational hypocrisy:

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself,
(I am large, I contain multitudes.
Walt Whitman, Song of Myself, 51

(self-denigrating self-comment: "Arrogant much?"

>Or Pollux is simply not near a normal route for reasons like nothing was interesting there to explore or colonize when initially passed by.

Apollo's world is Class M. Seems interesting enough for a visit to me, unless it's hard to reach.

>it is also true that Warp can result in slower than sublight speeds

Citations, please? I don't recall that.

>I wouldn’t even depend on the “chi factor” as Mandel wrote it.

Having posted in re: this (although sans evidence, which I'll pull and scan if called upon to), please respect the fact that the only thing Mandel himself "invented" was the term "chi factor." I gave him my & my co-author's formula, which he appropriated in the ST Poster Book. I complained; he apologized...then co-wrote the ST Maps Navigation book (about which I did not complain to him, let alone Bantam, being both beaten and [relatively] lacking in pettiness).

I'm just sayin'.

 

[blssdwlf]

Uh...Galileo had warp drive,

I thought TOS shuttles had FTL Ion engines? (As per "The Menagerie")

>
>Light speed is not an impossible velocity in TOS since the First Federation cube approached the Enterprise at light speed.

SULU: Sir, contact with an object. It's moving toward us. No visual contact yet.
SPOCK: Deflectors, full intensity.
SULU: It's coming at light speed.

Y'know...I just can't buy this. I know I'm arguing from a "lines must be taken literally" point of view...Scotty's Book was based on that, as is my mindset to this day...but light speed? The velocity at which the mass of objects with mass is infinite?

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke.

Seriously, you're okay with FTL drives, artificial gravity and transporters and you're getting hung up on ships traveling at light speed?

>
>it is also true that Warp can result in slower than sublight speeds

Citations, please? I don't recall that.

The non-time-traveling-Warp 8 dive towards the Deneva star at the beginning of "Operation: Annihilate!". The Bird of Prey going to Warp in Earth's atmosphere in "The Voyage Home".

 

[trekkist]

>I thought TOS shuttles had FTL Ion engines? (As per "The Menagerie")

Hey, if it bears nacelles matching the style of its mothership's and leaves a trail of antimatter residue, it quacks like a duck. As to "Menagerie,"

[Bridge]

COMPUTER: Library computer.
SPOCK: Lock on to sensors. Measure object now following the Enterprise.
COMPUTER: Computed. Object is a Class F shuttlecraft. Duranium metal shell, ion engine power
SPOCK: Stop. How long before shuttlecraft's fuel supply forces return to starbase?

Spock cut the computer off mid-sentence, prior its warp citation. (how can there be no one-eyebrow raised smilie on this board???)

>Seriously, you're okay with FTL drives, artificial gravity and transporters and you're getting hung up on ships traveling at light speed?

Yup. Many a theory exists (and have for decades) for the possibility of FTL. Gravity's nature is as yet almost entirely mysterious--who knows what we might find possible in the future? (and anyway, they use "lenses" to "focus" it--mere engineering). Transporters fun up against the uncertainty principle only in their dematerialization and re-materialization phases (admittedly being at that point a technology indistinguishable from magic), but (as is apparent on close observation of Deep Canon © ® ) "move" matter through a space warp (another "thing" for which many a possible theoretical justification exists).

Lightspeed's a miracle of different color, though--different not in degree but kind. ALL relativistic effects have been proven six ways from Sunday; put the hammer down on an infinite-acceleration drive, your mass will rise on an asymptote toward infinity, and shipboard time slow along the opposite curve. I've never heard of even a nutcase theory that might "undo" relativistic effects.

Time for total truth between us, blssdwlf: do YOU think lightspeed will ever be attained by anything save electromagnetic radiation?

If we ever detect that, I'll believe it. Until then, Ein's the Man (has nothing to do with my having been born on his birthday. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it)

>The non-time-traveling-Warp 8 dive towards the Deneva star at the beginning of "Operation: Annihilate!".

How does this relate to sublight warp drive? It only establishes that time-traveling trajectories are VERY precise (say--per canon--hyperbolics, not straight-in dives)

>The Bird of Prey going to Warp in Earth's atmosphere in "The Voyage Home".

Same question as above, if we presume (as multi-colored streak SFX imply) she really did go to warp in atmosphere (rather than, as I think you're suggesting, began "ramping up" to FTL while in atmosphere, thus being sublight-on-warp)...a repugnant notion to be sure, not to mention dumber than a Sigma Draconisian, but...hell, maybe FTL travel is a "semi-submerged into subspace" phenomenon. Did we ever see a ship in FTL hit a sublight object? Is there canon (not canon-violational "authorized tech manual") evidence that deflectors clear an FTL ship's path of...hell, every damn hydrogen atom? (now THAT would be a Clarke Law event)

 

[aridas sofia]

Wait… you’re saying you worked on material Mandel used in the Star Trek Maps back in 1979?

Who ARE you? Cole, McMaster, Maynard, Mandel… I thought I knew all the people who worked on that project. Should I know of you?

 

[trekkist]

I'm this guy--remember? (I know; I gafiated for quite a while):

https://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/star-trek-modelers-blueprints.php

>I thought I knew all the people who worked on that project. Should I know of you?

Well...I think so. Here's the skinny...and the dirt, in full detail:

Having met Mandel at a NYC ST con (1976 or 1977...the former I think), and then being at work on what would become Scotty's Book, I corresponded with Mandel (by mail) and bought several of his early fanzines.

I made the mistake of sharing with Mandel my co-author's and my "Warp formula" (derived from 990.7 light years in 11.337 hours at warp 8.4, "That Which Survives")...but from memory, and therefore not to the last digit of accuracy. To my annoyance, Mandel incorporated that (slightly inaccurate) "formula" into a short article for the Star Trek Poster Book.

I complained, by mail. He apologized...sort of, adding that what he'd appropriated from me was a "small part" of his (short) article (the rest of which was simple observational reportage).

Having accepted his apology, I was quite annoyed when the (correct to the last decimal) derived factor got dubbed "chi factor" in the ST Maps navigation book (as did Anji Valenza's alphabetical class system, which I'd also shared with Mandel by mail...to my eternal regret, I might add). NO attribution to either of us in the navigation book.

I never took this up with him (by mail or otherwise), and never mentioned it online until this thread (very briefly, and in no detail, though mentioning my having "on file"--somewhere--Mandel's & my letters on this and other subjects).

So, yes, I "worked on material Mandel used."

To repeat from earlier: by NO means am I saying I "discovered" anything; I've NO doubt some member of First Fandom wrote an article for some 1960s or 1970s ST fanzine about the "formula" of "That Which Survives." Nor am I claiming "I coulda been a CONTENDER!" (or that I was in any but a VERY small way "instrumental" in Mandel's rise to...where he's gotten).

I posted earlier on Mandel's site, BTW, asking him why the Picard episode "Fly Me to Moon" "Manned Spaceflight 1961-2024" posters included neither Soviet/Russian craft, nor Chinese ones. My full name appeared automatically beneath my post. I wonder if he'll recognize it? Most likely not.

Them's the facts. About which I'd just as soon say nothing more. Unless someone calls the Trek-documentation form of "Show tits or I call bullshit!" (or more precisely, "No slander without evidence!") (with which I'll dig out our letters, scan and post 'em).

Changing to a happier note (well, actually quite a lot of 'em, here's a fine and moving song:

"Dawson's Christian" from Vixy & Tony's We Are Who We Are:

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This one of theirs is a damn fine music too:

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