Thoughts on Burnham's relationship to Sarek

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Firstly, I don't believe that; secondly, Sarek is not a politician.

 

[cultcross]

Not sure if true

 

[Mudd]

^ Firstly, I don't believe that; secondly, Sarek is not a politician.

He's an ambassador; he's a politician. Sorry.

 

[Trekkin]

Any rebelliousness exhibited by Spock or Sybok is hardly reflective on Sarek's ability as a parent.

Sarek could, and probably did, do the best he can as a father, and yet if one of his children wants to forge their own path in life - that's on them, not him.

It's not a parent's fault if their child is a rebel.

Most bad or flawed parent's are 'doing the best they can.' They usually love their kids. Sometimes their best just isn't the same thing as being 'good.'

And Sarek's kids didn't rebel. He abandoned one to die as a child, and estranged Spock for taking a perfectly respectful path that just-so happened to not be his path.

Estranged Spock for a decade, to the point where he rebuffs any attempt at reconciliation (or basic politeness) on Spock's part, and is willing to let himself die out of sheer stubbornnes.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

To be fair, Sarek did reconcile with Spock, as we saw in the closing scenes of ST IV ("As I recall, I opposed your enlistment in Starfleet. It is possible that judgment was incorrect").

And while we have absolutely NO idea what Sarek's relationship with Sybok - assuming he even knew Sybok existed at all, which is by no means guaranteed - was like, if Sarek can reconcile with one of his sons, he could have done it with the other one as well.

Of course Sarek is stubborn. Most Vulcans are. Spock is probably as stubborn as Sarek was, if not more so - indeed, the blood transfusion plot in 'Journey to Babel' would seem to bear this out. But the point is, stubbornness is not indicative of evil, nor does it presuppose a lack of ability as a parent.

 

[Nerys Myk]

And while we have absolutely NO idea what his relationship with Sybok - assuming Sarek even knew Sybok existed at all, which is by no means guaranteed - was like, if Sarek can reconcile with one of his sons, he could have done it with the other one as well.

How could Spock know about him, but not Sarek?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Anything's possible.

I mean, of course it's unlikely that Sarek didn't know of Sybok - especially given Spock's line about he and Sybok being raised as brothers (assuming Spock was being entirely truthful in that scene ) - but it's not impossible. And as I said, given that Sarek and Spock were able to reconcile with each other, it stands to reason that Sarek and Sybok could have done so as well, if they had been able.

Especially since Sybok ultimately sacrificed his life to save Spock and the rest of the Enterprise crew, which Sarek would certainly appreciate.

 

[Trekkin]

To be fair, Sarek did reconcile with Spock, as we saw in the closing scenes of ST IV ("As I recall, I opposed your enlistment in Starfleet. It is possible my judgment was incorrect").

So...25 years of being a one-sided idiot. And Spock had to die to get some respect.

But the point is, stubbornness is not indicative of evil, nor does it presuppose a lack of ability as a parent.

Unreasonable stubbornness is very much an abuśive alarm bell when it's aimed at kids. Usually because it translates into 'refuses to recogníse and learn from fuck ups.'

Which leads to patterns of bad behaviour, which leads to more fuck ups, which leads to...kids 'rebelling.' aka Resenting you, running the fuck away, or just not meeting your expectations.

And we've covered 'evil.' Maliciousness isn't usually involved.

 

[Captain Indecisive]

That makes sense.
Personally, I just can't believe they'd do yet another half-human/half-vulcan character, especially as a lead. It has a very strong "been there, done that" element to it, if you ask me. We've had Spock (including his related identity struggles), we've had Worf (who was full Klingon but raised by humans), we've had B'Elanna... it's just not something I would like to see yet again, especially not for the lead character.
I'm not really enthusiastic about possibly having to see more "You're not a good Vulcan, you're too human" scenes and I hope the people who run the show felt the same.



This is probably true, if a bit sad. I think the bunch of nerds here (including me) would even watch a Trek show that doesn't feature any humans and takes place completely within the Romulan empire, but the general Netflix-paying public? Probably not so much.

It isn't the Netflix audience, maybe not any audience at all. It is the executives and producers who think we need humans stuck into every fantasy franchise. They simply won't give it a chance.

It is particularly ironic in regards to the live action Transformers movies. The people behind that series think the shallow, dull humans are more interesting that giant robots beating each other.

 

[Trekkin]

We had a Transformers movie focusing on the Transformers. It didn't do near as well as the ones that are all about the dumb humans.

Had a better soundtrack though.

 

[Captain Indecisive]

You might want to rethink your attitude here, or your tenure here will end up being short. I don't need nor want new problem children and if you cause more problems than you bring value to the board, I won't hesitate to eject you. If you can't deal with authority, I suggest you leave now before I end up having to remove you. I don't like new posters coming onto my radar for behaviors and this place is going to get crazy busy so tolerances for behaviors will be even less in the forthcoming months.

Not everyone is around when something happens. We are notified of a problem and we see it when we come online which may be hours away from when the event happened. I don't always speak up but I am the person who runs this place and the person who ejects people that I deem troublemakers, trolls or just general pains in the ass. So if I'm in here, it's because I see a problem and want it stopped. I've spoken to the mod about the situation privately, and my goal in speaking to all involved is to have the problem stopped. If I'm posting late, it's because a) I have a life and b) it took time to go over this/talk to those involved. I'm not just speaking to you; I'm speaking to anyone in here who saw what happened and it's perfectly acceptable to come in even a day later to do so because imo it's in the best interests of the board to do so and that's from where I'm coming.

If you have a problem with what a mod tells you to do and feel it's unfair, you PM me or any admin and I'll/we'll have a look. Usually, the mods are fair and if they're not, or if they screw up, they hear from me and any of them will tell you that. You don't start arguing with them and turn things into a mess.



I don't give a tinker's damn what you were discussing. The topic (however inflammatory it could be) is not important - the behavior was. It needs to stop and not be repeated in future and this is last word on the matter. If you need to discuss it further/have the last word, don't reply here but hit me on PM and we'll discuss it further.

I have already said that as far as I'm concerned, the issue is over and any bad feelings were settled by those involved. { Emilia} doesn't appear to have any animosity towards me, nor I to her or anyone else. I have not been aggressive, rude nor was I was deliberately trying to incite an argument. After the issue was settled, other people, including moderators kept directing posts at me about it. All I did was respond to those comments and post out that the whole thing was over and put to bed.

If you want to ban me, there is nothing I can do about that

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

Blah de blah blah blah

Give it a rest already. Getting the last word isn't that damned important. Shut the hell up and let us get back to our normal bickering.

 

[Captain Indecisive]

Give it a rest already. Getting the last word isn't that damned important. Shut the hell up and let us get back to our normal bickering.

I'm not stopping you from doing anything and I haven't the slightest interest in the "last word" - which has been mentioned before so clearly others like yourself do indeed think it an important achievement.

How about leaving the moderating to the moderators and administrator?

 

[Mad Jack Wolfe]

Thanks for proving my point. Ta.

 

[Captain Indecisive]

Thanks for proving my point. Ta.

If responding is "having the last word", then the fact that you are doing it shows you desire the "last word".

So "people in glass houses" and all that.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I recently had a thought on this matter. If Michael Burnham was indeed raised by Sarek, then he's not really much of a parent, is he? Of the three children he raised, one is a radical who embraced emotions and was exiled from Vulcan society, the other two joined Starfleet against his wishes.

He seems like a bit of a jerk even by Vulcan standards. Tuvok was married and had a few kids, based on when he referenced them I got the impression that he really missed them. He seemed closer to them than Sarek ever was with Spock. Tuvok was a good dad.

 

[fireproof78]

We had a Transformers movie focusing on the Transformers. It didn't do near as well as the ones that are all about the dumb humans.

Had a better soundtrack though.

Stupid, dumb, humans.

 

[Trekkin]

Megatron was right.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I have already said that as far as I'm concerned, the issue is over and any bad feelings were settled by those involved. { Emilia} doesn't appear to have any animosity towards me, nor I to her or anyone else. I have not been aggressive, rude nor was I was deliberately trying to incite an argument. After the issue was settled, other people, including moderators kept directing posts at me about it. All I did was respond to those comments and post out that the whole thing was over and put to bed.

If you want to ban me, there is nothing I can do about that

I'm not stopping you from doing anything and I haven't the slightest interest in the "last word" - which has been mentioned before so clearly others like yourself do indeed think it an important achievement.

How about leaving the moderating to the moderators and administrator?

If responding is "having the last word", then the fact that you are doing it shows you desire the "last word".

So "people in glass houses" and all that.

Wow, you really do have to have the last word on everything. You have now disobeyed I think four(?) separate moderators and admins instructions to stop, including the head admin of the site, which is not a good idea. So you've earned yourself an infraction for trolling for that, first off.

Now, I am going to tell you this in no uncertain terms. DO NOT respond to me to explain yourself or continue the argument or you will receive another infraction. If you have something further to say (but there really isn't), you may PM me or one of my co-mods for this forum or the admin T'Bonz. But resist the urge to have to have the last word here, because it's a really silly hill to die on. You are more than welcome to continue discussing the original topic or other subjects, just not this.

 

[Captain Indecisive]

He seems like a bit of a jerk even by Vulcan standards. Tuvok was married and had a few kids, based on when he referenced them I got the impression that he really missed them. He seemed closer to them than Sarek ever was with Spock. Tuvok was a good dad.

Vulcan's have often been portrayed as "jerks". The ambassador in Enterprise, for example, Spock's wedding episode and Sisko long time rival from the Academy. They often look upon themselves as superior to humans (Enterprise, reboot series).

Fuller has already said that Number One was a code name and that the lead in this show is not the Number One from the The Cage.

Everything seen and heard on screen in TOS and their movie counterparts about Spock's life and family invalidates the claim that Sarek is related to Burnham. Sarek's difficulty in relating to his son's human side, what Amanda says about him as husband and what he says about her. Sarek has never had a human wife before he married Grayson.

The idea that that Burnham is Grayson's daughter is completely silly. Star Trek doesn't do "I am your father" * moments and we not getting a previously unknown sister for Spock. I think people are trying way to hard to replicate a "who are Rey's parents?" thing.

Plus, there is the even more obvious reason - Burnham is a black woman and Amanda Grayson is a white woman. This show is intended as a prequel to TOS so there has to be consistency. If it isn't a direct prequel in the same universe, then they can change whatever they like.

I have been on the receiving end of inequality and favouritism because I'm a black man, and neither one is pleasant. I do not care that the world has been, or mostly is, favoured towards white men, I have no desire to see a "diversity" that leads to more inequality. I, like many people, want to be treated fairy and to get what I earn. True diversity is everyone getting the same opportunities to advance, not because there is a quota or agenda.

* People are even getting carried away with the notion that shocking family revelations are the DNA of Star Wars. I happened one time - the brother/sister thing wasn't even that big a surprise and the Prequels, animated series and TFA have no "shock family reveals". Kylo Ren being Han & Leia's son is not an "I am your father" moment.