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Thomas Vanderbilt

Mr. Laser Beam

Fleet Admiral
Admiral
In Picard's family album, there is a newspaper clipping ("It's Federation Day!") in which Thomas Vanderbilt is said to be the first ever President of the Federation. Has he ever appeared in a novel? If so, is it ever said (or suggested) that he is a descendant of the real life Vanderbilt family?
 
captcalhoun said: that clipping is non-canonical post-ENT...:lol:

No, it isn't.

There isn't a single thing anywhere in that clipping which is incompatible with canon, even taking Enterprise into account.
 
Babaganoosh said:
In Picard's family album, there is a newspaper clipping ("It's Federation Day!") in which Thomas Vanderbilt is said to be the first ever President of the Federation. Has he ever appeared in a novel? If so, is it ever said (or suggested) that he is a descendant of the real life Vanderbilt family?

Thomas Vanderbilt has never appeared in any novels. However, the method of his ascension to the presidency -- being elected by the Federation Council -- is inconsistent with the popular election method established in A Time for War, A Time for Peace by Keith R.A. DeCandido. Further, the novels A Time to Heal and A Time for War, A Time for Peace make it clear that there is no office of Federation Vice President, and that, rather, when a President is killed, incapacitated, or no longer in office before an election has been held, the Federation Council designates a Councillor to serve as President Pro Tempore until a special election can be held.
 
^ If he was one of the first Federation presidents, however, it's plenty possible that the political system changed in the intervening centuries. A change from a seemingly elitist election from a council to popular vote looks like the kind of democratizing, progressive shift one would expect from a society like the Federation.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
AFAIK, the first Federation Council was simply all of the ambassadors (Earth, Vulcan, Tellar, Andor) meeting to elect a president right then and there.

Logically, there can't be a popular vote by the citizens of the Federation if said Federation has only just been formed. The citizens of the member worlds wouldn't know who to vote for - yet they have to have *somebody* as president. Being elected by a hastily-cobbled-together Council would really be the only way the first president could have been chosen.

And why is it the job of Picard's family album to be consistent with any novel at all? It appeared onscreen, after all. ;)

(actually the only reason I thought of any of this to begin with was I just saw a special on PBS about Grand Central Station and it mentioned the Vanderbilt family. Then I remembered - one of their descendants could be the Federation President! :D )
 
the clipping was so tiny as to be illegible.

you gonna tell me the E-D is really powered by a giant hamster in a wheel like the MSD shows?
 
Trent Roman said:
^ If he was one of the first Federation presidents, however, it's plenty possible that the political system changed in the intervening centuries. A change from a seemingly elitist election from a council to popular vote looks like the kind of democratizing, progressive shift one would expect from a society like the Federation.

While that's certainly possible, I don't think it's likely. Why wouldn't the Federation have started out democratically? It's not like the concept of democracy would have only just emerged after its founding, after all.

Besides, Articles of the Federation establishes that there have been only two special elections in Federation history: One that led to Ra-ghoratreii becoming president, and one that led to Nan Bacco becoming president. Your notion seemingly contradicts that.

Babaganoosh said:
AFAIK, the first Federation Council was simply all of the ambassadors (Earth, Vulcan, Tellar, Andor) meeting to elect a president right then and there.

Logically, there can't be a popular vote by the citizens of the Federation if said Federation has only just been formed.

Why not? If everyone knows that the Federation is going to come into existence on, say, 12 August 2161 -- which they would have, since it would have taken months, if not years, to work out the details after its constitution would be drafted -- there's no reason that they couldn't hold an election leading up to the signing of the Articles of the Federation, with the Articles specifying that the winner of the pre-ratification election immediately becoming president. Or, they could just do what the United States did when it replaced the Articles of Confederation with the US Constitution -- have no president until an election could be held.

ETA: The new United States government began its operations under the Constitution on 4 March 1789 after the ninth state ratified the Cosntitution on 21 June 1788, but there was no President of the United States until 30 April 1789. The Congress of the Confederation, the interstate assembly that existed under the Articles of Confederation, was responsible for drafting the timeline for its replacement government to begin operations. So, for instance, it may be that the Coalition of Planets carried out executive functions as the Federation government was being set up.

The citizens of the member worlds wouldn't know who to vote for - yet they have to have *somebody* as president.

I completely disagree on both counts. Everyone knew George Washington and John Adams were going to be running for US President even before the Constitution was ratified, for instance, so there's no reason that the citizens of United Earth, the Confederacy of Vulcan, the Andorian Empire, Tellar, and Alpha Centauri wouldn't know who's running. And, no, they don't have to have somebody as president when the institutions of governance haven't even been set up; the necessary executive functions could be fulfilled by the Member State governments until the election is held.

Being elected by a hastily-cobbled-together Council would really be the only way the first president could have been chosen.

Tell that to George Washington.

And why is it the job of Picard's family album to be consistent with any novel at all? It appeared onscreen, after all. ;)

Actually, it didn't. The Picard Family Scrapbook did, but not ever little article and cutout that the Star Trek Generations Art Department put in there, and the "It's Federation Day!" cutout was never filmed.
 
Sci said:
While that's certainly possible, I don't think it's likely. Why wouldn't the Federation have started out democratically? It's not like the concept of democracy would have only just emerged after its founding, after all.

Possibly, because not all founding states are democratic. In ENT's time, the Andorians are organized into an Empire, are they not? complete with 'Imperial Guard'. Generally speaking, emperors and empresses are not elected. T'Pau's government came to power in what was essentially a coup d'état, albiet a justified one. Do we know how the High Command is chosen, or how a traditionalist who enjoys barbaric rituals of the type seen in "Amok Time" would run a government? And we have no idea what kind of government the Tellarites run. I don't think it's far fetched to think that the first, or firsts, Federation presidents were elected from a small group of representatives from the member world, representatives who, in turn, would have been chosen however that species goes about doing so (so popular election for Earth, imperial decree for Andor, appointment of merit, perhaps, for Vulcan...). Eventually, democracy would 'trickle down' to the members states and become the form by which the Federation President is elected.

Besides, Articles of the Federation establishes that there have been only two special elections in Federation history: One that led to Ra-ghoratreii becoming president, and one that led to Nan Bacco becoming president. Your notion seemingly contradicts that.

How do you figure? A special election is an election held outside normative circumstances. It doesn't say what those circumstances actually are.

EDIT: And all those Washington comparisons are somewhat flawed, considering that his 'election' was a de facto acclamation.

Fictitioudly yours, Trent Roman
 
Trent Roman said:
Sci said:
While that's certainly possible, I don't think it's likely. Why wouldn't the Federation have started out democratically? It's not like the concept of democracy would have only just emerged after its founding, after all.

Possibly, because not all founding states are democratic. In ENT's time, the Andorians are organized into an Empire, are they not? complete with 'Imperial Guard'.

They call themselves an empire, sure, and they have an Imperial Guard. But it's not as though constitutional monarchies -- republics wearing a monarchy suit -- are unheard of in real life, and Andor: Paradigm establishes that the Andorian Empire is as ceremonial a monarchy as they come: The throne is intentionally left empty, and the Empire is governed by the popularly-elected Parliament Andoria. The ENT episode "The Aenar" established that the Andorian head of government is called the Chancellor. So the Andorian Empire, in spite of its imperial trappings, comes across as being a democracy to me.

T'Pau's government came to power in what was essentially a coup d'état, albiet a justified one.

Actually, we don't know how T'Pau's government came to power. We know how the High Command lost power, but T'Pau didn't become a Minister until "United," several episodes later. It's entirely possible -- it was unestablished canonically -- that T'Pau came to power in a democratic election.

Do we know how the High Command is chosen,

We do not, but it is irrelevant, because the Vulcan High Command was disbanded at the end of "Kir'Shara," and a new government was established thereafter.

And we have no idea what kind of government the Tellarites run.

Not in detail, but we do know that Tellarite society is built around argumentation -- which sounds democratic to me.

I don't think it's far fetched to think that the first, or firsts, Federation presidents were elected from a small group of representatives from the member world, representatives who, in turn, would have been chosen however that species goes about doing so (so popular election for Earth, imperial decree for Andor, appointment of merit, perhaps, for Vulcan...). Eventually, democracy would 'trickle down' to the members states and become the form by which the Federation President is elected.

Sure, like I said, it's POSSIBLE. But we know that United Earth is a republic, and we know that the Andorian Empire is a parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy, and we know that Tellarite society is built upon argumentation, which lends itself to democracy but not to non-democratic forms of governance, and we know that the so-called "merit-based" Vulcan system was abolished. So the implication definitely seems to be that the Founding States were democratic.

Besides, Articles of the Federation establishes that there have been only two special elections in Federation history: One that led to Ra-ghoratreii becoming president, and one that led to Nan Bacco becoming president. Your notion seemingly contradicts that.

How do you figure? A special election is an election held outside normative circumstances. It doesn't say what those circumstances actually are.

I'm not sure how you'd call the first elections after fundamentally altering the system of government anything other than a special election.

EDIT: And all those Washington comparisons are somewhat flawed, considering that his 'election' was a de facto acclamation.

I don't see that it's a flawed comparison. Washington was a universally popular candidate, but even if he hadn't been, the example does show, rather definitively, that you can institute a democratic government and allow it to function for a time with an empty executive office until elections can be held. It's not as though society will disintegrate if the post of Federation President goes empty for a month until they can organize an election.
 
Sci said:
They call themselves an empire, sure, and they have an Imperial Guard. But it's not as though constitutional monarchies -- republics wearing a monarchy suit -- are unheard of in real life, and Andor: Paradigm establishes that the Andorian Empire is as ceremonial a monarchy as they come: The throne is intentionally left empty, and the Empire is governed by the popularly-elected Parliament Andoria. The ENT episode "The Aenar" established that the Andorian head of government is called the Chancellor. So the Andorian Empire, in spite of its imperial trappings, comes across as being a democracy to me.

Had to look that up on Memory Alpha, but looks like that's all correct. Oops?

Actually, we don't know how T'Pau's government came to power. We know how the High Command lost power, but T'Pau didn't become a Minister until "United," several episodes later. It's entirely possible -- it was unestablished canonically -- that T'Pau came to power in a democratic election.

But we don't know how Vulcans, the old or the new, choose their leaders. One could make a good case that democracy isn't a logical method of choosing leaders (though less applicable if the population is, itself, adherents to logic and thus not susceptible to many of democracy's typical flaws).

Not in detail, but we do know that Tellarite society is built around argumentation -- which sounds democratic to me.

Spurious. Aristocracies and oligarchies were plenty argumentative... as were the early 'democracies' of, say, Athens or the first American elections, which we would hardly call democratic--at least not in the modern usage--since the majority of the population was excluded from the voter pool.

Sure, like I said, it's POSSIBLE. But we know that United Earth is a republic, and we know that the Andorian Empire is a parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy, and we know that Tellarite society is built upon argumentation, which lends itself to democracy but not to non-democratic forms of governance, and we know that the so-called "merit-based" Vulcan system was abolished. So the implication definitely seems to be that the Founding States were democratic.

Don't really agree that it's a clear implication, but I'll admit my proposal isn't any more likely. Which is actually kind of too bad; I liked the idea that the Federation would initially include a diversity of systems of government, and that it would have a transformative and liberalizing effect on those member worlds. Democracy through osmosis, rather than the current notions of spreading democracy via physical warfare and economic sanctions.

I'm not sure how you'd call the first elections after fundamentally altering the system of government anything other than a special election.

Wouldn't have to be a radical shift. First, vote a new constitution. Then, vote the president. Those elections are special for being the first of their kind, but they're not 'special elections' taken when the post suddenly becomes vacant.

I don't see that it's a flawed comparison. Washington was a universally popular candidate, but even if he hadn't been, the example does show, rather definitively, that you can institute a democratic government and allow it to function for a time with an empty executive office until elections can be held. It's not as though society will disintegrate if the post of Federation President goes empty for a month until they can organize an election.

When there's only one man on the ballot, running unopposed, I don't call that a democracy. But I don't think gaps in the executive are critical, either. I rather liked SNL "Bill Clinton"'s suggestion during the Gore/Bush debacle that we just forgo a President for a while.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
<Gus Hedges> I feel we may be straying down tangent boulevard here... </Gus Hedges> :D

seriously though, I *would* kind of like to see what a Trek novel could do with Vanderbilt, or at least with the very early years of the Federation (not sure if this would fall under a possible ENT novel). Especially if he is a member of the Vanderbilt family as I suspect.

(hey, if Starfleet: Year One can be rendered non-canon by ENT, yet still have one of its characters appear in a SCE story - Lydia Littlejohn in The Future Begins - then anything is possible)
 
I think you might be overselling Littlejohn's role in tFB as well as the implications of it. I think Memory Beta has about nine articles based on interpretations of that one line.
 
Steve Mollmann said:
I think you might be overselling Littlejohn's role in tFB as well as the implications of it. I think Memory Beta has about nine articles based on interpretations of that one line.

More like one -- "President of United Earth." ;) But, actually, it makes sense to presume that UE would have a republican parliamentary form of government, with both a President and Prime Minister. After all, it's not like there'd be a Monarch as with the Brits!
 
Going back for a few things...

Trent Roman said:
Don't really agree that it's a clear implication, but I'll admit my proposal isn't any more likely. Which is actually kind of too bad; I liked the idea that the Federation would initially include a diversity of systems of government, and that it would have a transformative and liberalizing effect on those member worlds. Democracy through osmosis, rather than the current notions of spreading democracy via physical warfare and economic sanctions.

I like the idea of peacefully, noncoercively persuading people to adopt democracy instead of having it be imposed in an act of neo-imperialism, too. (Fascinating how the US government seems to think that it can forcibly impose a successful democracy upon Iraq, but it favors peaceful persuasion for China, isn't it?) You could still do a story like that, in fact, even if the Founders are all democratic -- after all, we could see, for instance, Denobula or Rigel be persuaded to adopt constitutional liberal democracy by the Federation and choose to join.

I don't see that it's a flawed comparison. Washington was a universally popular candidate, but even if he hadn't been, the example does show, rather definitively, that you can institute a democratic government and allow it to function for a time with an empty executive office until elections can be held. It's not as though society will disintegrate if the post of Federation President goes empty for a month until they can organize an election.

When there's only one man on the ballot, running unopposed, I don't call that a democracy.

Well, technically, Washington did not run unopposed, because at the time, the second-highest vote-getter became Vice President. So there were a lot of people who, legally-speaking, were running against Washington, but who were in reality running against one-another for VP.

But I digress, because even given that, the point remains that it IS possible to leave an office empty until an election can be held; the presidency doesn't need to be instantly filled.

But I don't think gaps in the executive are critical, either. I rather liked SNL "Bill Clinton"'s suggestion during the Gore/Bush debacle that we just forgo a President for a while.

Easy for you to say; you Canadians get a Queen, a Governor-General, and a Prime Minister -- between the three of them, there's always SOMEONE around who can make executive decisions in an emergency! ;)

Babaganoosh said:
<Gus Hedges> I feel we may be straying down tangent boulevard here... </Gus Hedges> :D

What? A tangent? In the TrekBBS?

seriously though, I *would* kind of like to see what a Trek novel could do with Vanderbilt, or at least with the very early years of the Federation (not sure if this would fall under a possible ENT novel). Especially if he is a member of the Vanderbilt family as I suspect.

I... would not. I don't want to see Vanderbilt, anyway. I think that The Good That Men Do and the ENT canon has pretty well established most of who ought to be the major players in Coalition and early Federation politics at this point -- Nathan Samuels, Haroun al-Rashid, Soval, Gral, Avaranthi sh'Rothress, T'Pau, Shran, Solkar, L'Nel, Admiral Black, Admiral Gardner, General Casey, Thoris, and, of course, Jonathan Archer. There's certainly room to add more people as they go -- who else is in Prime Minister Samuels' Cabinet, for instance? -- but I don't see why they should feel compelled to add a "character" that only ever appeared in a newsclipping that never appeared on film and which has only ever been seen by a handful of fans on the 'Net.

And I really hate the idea of linking him to the real-life Vanderbilt family, because that just seems elitist to me. "Oh, hey, the rich and the powerful today will still be rich and powerful in the 22nd Century!"
 
^^Yeah... besides, if this guy were established as the first UFP president, then somebody could make a crack about the Federation being "the house that Vanderbilt," and you know how we all hate bad puns around here.... ;)
 
Christopher said:
^^Yeah... besides, if this guy were established as the first UFP president, then somebody could make a crack about the Federation being "the house that Vanderbilt," and you know how we all hate bad puns around here.... ;)

You're a terrible human being with your puns. I hope you know that. ;)
 
Christopher said:
^^Yeah... besides, if this guy were established as the first UFP president, then somebody could make a crack about the Federation being "the house that Vanderbilt," and you know how we all hate bad puns around here.... ;)
You need SERIOUS help, Chris

*Picks up phone. "Is that Puns Anonymous? Great, I've got a new member for your group."* ;)
 
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