This is an article I so agree with

[Gojira]

...

The film ends up being one of two things: Either A) an alternate timeline, in which case everything prior to the Narada exiting the black hole is supposed to be 100% identical to the TOS we know and love (with the exception of CGI/make-up upgrades) but it isn't, its been changed significantly; or B) A reboot, in which case things are changed for the better, such as the size of ships, their crew compliments, and their technological abilities, but yet the Spock we know and love somehow comes back in time anyway.

I would have been happy with an alternate timeline. I would have been happy with a reboot. The problem is that we got NEITHER.

I look at it this way: this is an alternate timeline of an alternate timeline. In timeline one, we get a progression -- more or less -- from "The Cage" in TOS through "All Good Things" in TNG and then Generations. Then, in First Contact, 1701-E goes back in time chasing the Borg and allows Zephram Cochrane and Lily Sloane to see advanced starship designs. Sloane crawled around in one and saw model representations of others. These clues probably gave Cochrane enough information to make small improvements to his original concepts. This then leads to an altered timeline that at least goes through Star Trek: Enterprise, which featured a larger, possibly more advanced starship than may have existed at that time originally. Archer's mission might never have been, and the whole Temporal Cold War may have been started by a misunderstanding of the events in First Contact.

This new timeline would have continued to develop in the 23rd century in a manner probably very much like that seen in TOS, although the ships would continue to be larger and more advanced. NX-01, after refit to NX-01.5 with a secondary hull and other refinements, might have delayed the production of Constitution-class starships. But ultimately, the Enterprise might still have been crewed by Kirk, Spock, Scotty, etc.

But twenty years before that, Nero and the Narada came from the future and nailed the Kelvin, creating the second divergence from the original timeline. Where then does Spock-Prime come from? It's tempting to say he comes from the original timeline, but he recognized a man as Montgomery Scott who clearly looked nothing like Scotty. So I'm happy to shrug my shoulders and go along with the idea that Spock-Prime actually hails from Archer's future, not the future we've already seen.

Another pet theory of mine is that Chekov in this alternate timeline isn't the same Chekov from the original show. In the original show, Chekov was much younger than his crewmates, but in Trek '09, the difference didn't look as great. I suspect his parents got together a bit earlier and Pavel was born sooner. I actually prefer Trek '09's Chekov. With all due respect to Mr. Koenig, Yeltzin's Chekov seems so much more Russian.

Not a bad theory at all. I have heard that theory before and it works for me.

Another theory I have heard which I also like is that this movie, from start to finish, takes place in a universe independent of the prime universe and not one that has branched off from the prime universe. So in that universe Nero did change the time line but it was the time line of that universe and not the prime universe. This also means both Nero and Old Spock originated from the future of that specific universe and they were not from the prime universe.

So in other words Trek 09 is completely set in a universe that is not connected to the prime universe in any way.

 

[tighr]

Another theory I have heard which I also like is that this movie, from start to finish, takes place in a universe independent of the prime universe and not one that has branched off from the prime universe. So in that universe Nero did change the time line but it was the time line of that universe and not the prime universe. This also means both Nero and Old Spock originated from the future of that specific universe and they were not from the prime universe.

So in other words Trek 09 is completely set in a universe that is not connected to the prime universe in any way.

I can get behind this theory. If only because its the only one that make sense, especially since they chose to shoehorn Leonard Nimoy into the film.

However, that's the definition of a REBOOT, and makes this film a REBOOT, which is where this argument started. The producers denied this film is a reboot.

 

[Gojira]

Another theory I have heard which I also like is that this movie, from start to finish, takes place in a universe independent of the prime universe and not one that has branched off from the prime universe. So in that universe Nero did change the time line but it was the time line of that universe and not the prime universe. This also means both Nero and Old Spock originated from the future of that specific universe and they were not from the prime universe.

So in other words Trek 09 is completely set in a universe that is not connected to the prime universe in any way.

I can get behind this theory. If only because its the only one that make sense, especially since they chose to shoehorn Leonard Nimoy into the film.

However, that's the definition of a REBOOT, and makes this film a REBOOT, which is where this argument started. The producers denied this film is a reboot.

I think the producers/writers didn't want to anger millions of fans so they said it wasn't a reboot but in reality it was.

I am fine with it because as the theory I just mentioned suggests it does still leave the prime universe unaltered.

Plus it lines up with the claim of the writers regarding multiverse theory. While the Star trek franchise has dealt with the existence of other universes (mirror universe, Parallels) it has never dealt with time traveling creating an alternate universe.

So according to multiverse theory in physics there are both universes that branch off from other universes as well as there being pre-existing universes. This movie fits in with the theory of a pre-existing universe.

 

[Dukhat]

But if its supposed to be an alternate timeline, then we didn't get that film, either. Too many unforgivable ret-cons of events that occur prior to the events of the Kelvin, which by definition should match the Prime universe.

What retcons of events prior to the Kelvin? When the film first starts, the change in the timeline has already occurred. Or are you just talking about the existence of the Kelvin herself? How is that an "unforgivable retcon?"

 

[Psion]

...

Another theory I have heard which I also like is that this movie, from start to finish, takes place in a universe independent of the prime universe and not one that has branched off from the prime universe. So in that universe Nero did change the time line but it was the time line of that universe and not the prime universe. This also means both Nero and Old Spock originated from the future of that specific universe and they were not from the prime universe.

So in other words Trek 09 is completely set in a universe that is not connected to the prime universe in any way.

Yep. I can go along with that, too. I'm just attached to the idea that First Contact created a branching timeline ever since Enterprise came out, so I keep trying to shoehorn it in whichever way it will fit.

But the best explanation is a completely alternate universe, you're right. Spock-Prime is a long way from home.

 

[Dukhat]

...

Another theory I have heard which I also like is that this movie, from start to finish, takes place in a universe independent of the prime universe and not one that has branched off from the prime universe. So in that universe Nero did change the time line but it was the time line of that universe and not the prime universe. This also means both Nero and Old Spock originated from the future of that specific universe and they were not from the prime universe.

So in other words Trek 09 is completely set in a universe that is not connected to the prime universe in any way.

Again, if this is true, please explain the logic of why old Spock and Nero are in this film at all if the universe they came from was not the prime one.

 

[The Castellan]

Another theory I have heard which I also like is that this movie, from start to finish, takes place in a universe independent of the prime universe and not one that has branched off from the prime universe. So in that universe Nero did change the time line but it was the time line of that universe and not the prime universe. This also means both Nero and Old Spock originated from the future of that specific universe and they were not from the prime universe.

So in other words Trek 09 is completely set in a universe that is not connected to the prime universe in any way.

I can get behind this theory. If only because its the only one that make sense, especially since they chose to shoehorn Leonard Nimoy into the film.

However, that's the definition of a REBOOT, and makes this film a REBOOT, which is where this argument started. The producers denied this film is a reboot.

I think the producers/writers didn't want to anger millions of fans so they said it wasn't a reboot but in reality it was.

I am fine with it because as the theory I just mentioned suggests it does still leave the prime universe unaltered.

Plus it lines up with the claim of the writers regarding multiverse theory. While the Star trek franchise has dealt with the existence of other universes (mirror universe, Parallels) it has never dealt with time traveling creating an alternate universe.

So according to multiverse theory in physics there are both universes that branch off from other universes as well as there being pre-existing universes. This movie fits in with the theory of a pre-existing universe.

Telling fans it's not a reboot, when in fact it is, simply lying. One thing I despise a lot are liars. It's like you are dating someone and the person says he or she no longer wants anything to do with their ex, and you find out he or she is still seeing and sleeping with the ex. Or you are given a drug, and they tell you there is no side effect, but it turns out the company who made the drug was lying and there are side effects, nasty ones, and they let it be released to make money. I'd be pretty annoyed by those things....and films should be no different.

 

[number6]

Aren't you taking this a little personally? Sounds like an issue that has nothing to do with this film.

 

[The Castellan]

Aren't you taking this a little personally? Sounds like an issue that has nothing to do with this film.

Nope, just using examples of what are lies. And if JJ and friends say it's not a reboot, to avoid making some of us mad, when in fact it is a reboot, it's simply lying. I'm being truthful and logical, am I not?

 

[Dukhat]

Telling fans it's not a reboot, when in fact it is, simply lying. One thing I despise a lot are liars. It's like you are dating someone and the person says he or she no longer wants anything to do with their ex, and you find out he or she is still seeing and sleeping with the ex. Or you are given a drug, and they tell you there is no side effect, but it turns out the company who made the drug was lying and there are side effects, nasty ones, and they let it be released to make money. I'd be pretty annoyed by those things....and films should be no different.

Wow, just...wow.

I'm being truthful and logical, am I not?

I'm not quite sure what you're being anymore.

 

[The Castellan]

Telling fans it's not a reboot, when in fact it is, simply lying. One thing I despise a lot are liars. It's like you are dating someone and the person says he or she no longer wants anything to do with their ex, and you find out he or she is still seeing and sleeping with the ex. Or you are given a drug, and they tell you there is no side effect, but it turns out the company who made the drug was lying and there are side effects, nasty ones, and they let it be released to make money. I'd be pretty annoyed by those things....and films should be no different.

Wow, just...wow.

I'm being truthful and logical, am I not?

I'm not quite sure what you're being anymore.

Wow, just wow, I do something a little detailed, and state a few examples, and you go all . So I ask, What did I do wrong this time?

And you not being sure what I am, I take that as a lovely compliment.

 

[Dukhat]

So I ask, What did I do wrong this time?

Since I don't know you or your posting history, I can't answer that question. But if I had to guess...do you tend to go overboard and blow things out of proportion much? It's just a movie, dude. We get that you didn't like it.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

http://guy-wires.blogspot.com/2011/01/how-jj-abrams-taught-me-to-embrace-my.html



I am in agreement with this guy about pretty much each thing he said, there.

I agree with pretty much all of it and yet I loved the movie.
Still trying to figure that one out...

 

[number6]

Aren't you taking this a little personally? Sounds like an issue that has nothing to do with this film.

Nope, just using examples of what are lies. And if JJ and friends say it's not a reboot, to avoid making some of us mad, when in fact it is a reboot, it's simply lying. I'm being truthful and logical, am I not?

It's not a reboot, but it also is. They chose a different path than a conventional reboot. What you chose to call it doesn't change their intent and it's not for you to decide for everyone else what that is.

 

[F. King Daniel]

But if its supposed to be an alternate timeline, then we didn't get that film, either. Too many unforgivable ret-cons of events that occur prior to the events of the Kelvin, which by definition should match the Prime universe.

What retcons of events prior to the Kelvin? When the film first starts, the change in the timeline has already occurred. Or are you just talking about the existence of the Kelvin herself? How is that an "unforgivable retcon?"

I think he's talking about the USS Kelvin - a ship 30 years prior to TOS, being bigger and looking more modern. Because it's apparently okay for everything to look totally different 7.5 years after TOS (TMP), 100 years prior (ENT), but somehow not 30 years prior. That's "unforgivable"

Personally, I think that's nonsense. They updated the production design just as they recast the actors. As for the size of the Kelvin vs. TOS Enterprise, that just means the old ship was a Voyager and not a mammoth Enterprise-D.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Nope, just using examples of what are lies. And if JJ and friends say it's not a reboot, to avoid making some of us mad, when in fact it is a reboot, it's simply lying. I'm being truthful and logical, am I not?

No, you're taking a narrowly literal-minded attitude toward marketing buzzwords that in fact mean nothing specific.

The use - in some cases the invention - of words like "reboot," "reimagining" etc. in the entertainment industry is no more significant and imparts no more specific information than the use of "New," "Improved," or even "Now With 50% More Clean!" in selling soap powder.

A lie is when you buy a socket wrench which you're told uses American measurements and find that it's metric (if you're sure the guy selling it knew). Those terms mean something specific that affects the use of the product.

Because you can concoct a logical train of thought based on premises that you find plausible which leads to a contradiction as far as your interpretation of what buzzwords mean and how marketing should be conducted does not make the filmmakers or studio into liars. At least, no more or less so than most people selling most products based on their intangible qualities or qualities which are open to interpretation ("most entertaining movie of the year!").

 

[Gojira]

...

Another theory I have heard which I also like is that this movie, from start to finish, takes place in a universe independent of the prime universe and not one that has branched off from the prime universe. So in that universe Nero did change the time line but it was the time line of that universe and not the prime universe. This also means both Nero and Old Spock originated from the future of that specific universe and they were not from the prime universe.

So in other words Trek 09 is completely set in a universe that is not connected to the prime universe in any way.

Again, if this is true, please explain the logic of why old Spock and Nero are in this film at all if the universe they came from was not the prime one.

I generally don't answer a question with a question but why would it seem illogical that old Spock and Nero wouldn't be in this film at all unless the universe they came from was not the prime one?

What about the presence of Old Spock and Nero would contradict this theory?

It is a time travel story with characters from TOS so having Spock from the future and an angry Romulan from the future being pulled into the past is not out of the realm of possibility.

I think both theories work...seeing the movie as being an alternate universe branching off from the prime universe or viewing the movie as taking place within its own self contained universe and neither theory really conflicts with what is viewed on screen.

 

[Dukhat]

I generally don't answer a question with a question but why would it seem illogical that old Spock and Nero wouldn't be in this film at all unless the universe they came from was not the prime one?

What about the presence of Old Spock and Nero would contradict this theory?

It is a time travel story with characters from TOS so having Spock from the future and an angry Romulan from the future being pulled into the past is not out of the realm of possibility.

I think both theories work...seeing the movie as being an alternate universe branching off from the prime universe or viewing the movie as taking place within its own self contained universe and neither theory really conflicts with what is viewed on screen.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm fully aware that old Spock and Nero coming back through time from the future and changing history to create this new universe is integral to the plot of the movie; in fact, it is the plot of the movie. That's not what I have a problem with.

Also, to a more limited degree, I don't have a problem with people saying that the Kelvin's universe before the incursion might be a different one than TOS, if only because it's been pointed out that there were many temporal incursions before 2233 that could have changed the timeline (i.e. First Contact; ENTERPRISE; any Trek series where the regulars went back to the 20th/21st century), although I myself don't agree with this because a) I see no problem with the "look" of Star Trek in 2233 as interpreted by J.J. Abrams to be in any way contradictory to the prime TOS universe, and b) the creators of the film have said that it's the original prime TOS timeline, and I'm not going to act like a little internet dork and think that I know better than the people who are actually making the product.

The issue I have is people saying that both the new universe created in this movie is a different one from TOS (duh, yeah, that's what the movie was about), but that the future that old Spock and Nero came from is also a different universe from TOS and its future sequels. Aside from the above mentioned fact that the creators of the film state that Old Spock and Nero come from the regular Prime timeline, there would be no point whatsoever in bashing the audience over the head that "teh timeline has changed!!!!" if it didn't really matter in the first place because none of this has to do with TOS. If it was a true reboot, say like how nuBSG is a true reboot and has nothing to do with TOS BSG, then having Old Spock and Nero coming back through time is pointless. Plus, why make such a big deal that Old Spock is "Ambassador Spock" helping Romulus avert a disaster, which is a clear-as-glass reference to "Unification," if he wasn't the same Spock from the prime universe?

In many instances, the people who feel this way are the people who didn't like the film in general and are just making excuses to themselves as to why it doesn't work for them (although I don't think that's the case with you). And that's fine, if they want to think that. Just don't try to delve too deeply into the logic of that belief or try to pass it off as some kind of fact.

 

[Gojira]

I generally don't answer a question with a question but why would it seem illogical that old Spock and Nero wouldn't be in this film at all unless the universe they came from was not the prime one?

What about the presence of Old Spock and Nero would contradict this theory?

It is a time travel story with characters from TOS so having Spock from the future and an angry Romulan from the future being pulled into the past is not out of the realm of possibility.

I think both theories work...seeing the movie as being an alternate universe branching off from the prime universe or viewing the movie as taking place within its own self contained universe and neither theory really conflicts with what is viewed on screen.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm fully aware that old Spock and Nero coming back through time from the future and changing history to create this new universe is integral to the plot of the movie; in fact, it is the plot of the movie. That's not what I have a problem with.

Also, to a more limited degree, I don't have a problem with people saying that the Kelvin's universe before the incursion might be a different one than TOS, if only because it's been pointed out that there were many temporal incursions before 2233 that could have changed the timeline (i.e. First Contact; ENTERPRISE; any Trek series where the regulars went back to the 20th/21st century), although I myself don't agree with this because a) I see no problem with the "look" of Star Trek in 2233 as interpreted by J.J. Abrams to be in any way contradictory to the prime TOS universe, and b) the creators of the film have said that it's the original prime TOS timeline, and I'm not going to act like a little internet dork and think that I know better than the people who are actually making the product.

The issue I have is people saying that both the new universe created in this movie is a different one from TOS (duh, yeah, that's what the movie was about), but that the future that old Spock and Nero came from is also a different universe from TOS and its future sequels. Aside from the above mentioned fact that the creators of the film state that Old Spock and Nero come from the regular Prime timeline, there would be no point whatsoever in bashing the audience over the head that "teh timeline has changed!!!!"
If it was a true reboot, say like how nuBSG is a true reboot and has nothing to do with TOS BSG, then having Old Spock and Nero coming back through time is pointless. Plus, why make such a big deal that Old Spock is "Ambassador Spock" helping Romulus avert a disaster, which is a clear-as-glass reference to "Unification," if he wasn't the same Spock from the prime universe?

In many instances, the people who feel this way are the people who didn't like the film in general and are just making excuses to themselves as to why it doesn't work for them (although I don't think that's the case with you). And that's fine, if they want to think that. Just don't try to delve too deeply into the logic of that belief or try to pass it off as some kind of fact.

I do see what you're saying and I agree. I offered my theory...well it wasn't mine I heard it from someone else...as an explanation for those who did not like the movie because it seems to erase previous Trek in their eyes.

I think the theory I mentioned is an alternative to the debate that has raged on message boards since the movie came out to whether or not Trek 09 begins an alternate universe or just an alternate timeline within the prime universe.

As you are well aware there are some that feel the writers were not clear enough in the movie that an alternate reality is the same as an alternate universe and that the movie actually depicted the time line being changed within the prime universe only.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Even if STXI erased everything but Enterprise from the Trek timeline, so what? Would it really ruin the rest of Star Trek for anyone?