Things to go when Moffat leaves

[The Wormhole]

Honestly, the whole Hybrid thing wasn't really very clear to me and I needed it explained for me on this very forum. Though to be honest, Hell Bent is something of a unfocused mess. The Doctor is back on Gallifrey. Rassilon and the High Council seek him out, so he stages a coup against them and exiles them. The he sort of resurrects Clara, which then leads to violently escaping Gallifrey so the two of them can monologue at each other for a bit. They meet up with Ashildr who also joins in in the monologue delivering, during which the non-significance of the Hybrid as apparently established. After more monologues, the Doctor has his mind wiped of anything to do with Clara,

I'm not sure if that was the original intent or they changed their minds during the course of the series.

With the way Doctor Who is written, there is no "changing your mind during the course of the series." Before the season is written, Moffat has the season's story arc mapped out. He would have known before he wrote the first script what the Hybrid would have been.

 

[Christopher]

Sadly, yes, that was clear. I'm not sure if that was the original intent or they changed their minds during the course of the series. But, it was a big let down.

I don't see it as a letdown. It's not a fakeout to reveal that people have been misled by a prophecy, that it was really just their own fears and biases shaping their interpretation and reaction. That's actually a far more intelligent and meaningful treatment of the idea of prophecy than just having it turn out to be literally true and the result of "destiny." Destiny is just an excuse for lazy writing. Even aside from that, the letdown would be if there wasn't a twist at the end, if the prophecy had just turned out to be exactly what everyone thought. That would be a pretty boring way to resolve a story.

 

[Mr Awe]

Even aside from that, the letdown would be if there wasn't a twist at the end, if the prophecy had just turned out to be exactly what everyone thought. That would be a pretty boring way to resolve a story.

I don't believe there was a consensus as to what the hybrid was going to be during the course of the series. So, it would not have been possible to be "what everyone thought." It should have been something interesting. Sorry, but ultimately being people's fears about the worst doesn't cut it for me. But, reasonable minds will disagree.

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Awe]

Honestly, the whole Hybrid thing wasn't really very clear to me and I needed it explained for me on this very forum. Though to be honest, Hell Bent is something of a unfocused mess. The Doctor is back on Gallifrey. Rassilon and the High Council seek him out, so he stages a coup against them and exiles them. The he sort of resurrects Clara, which then leads to violently escaping Gallifrey so the two of them can monologue at each other for a bit. They meet up with Ashildr who also joins in in the monologue delivering, during which the non-significance of the Hybrid as apparently established. After more monologues, the Doctor has his mind wiped of anything to do with Clara,

I enjoyed your synopsis. If it accurately reflects your state of ungrippedness about the story, I agree completely!

With the way Doctor Who is written, there is no "changing your mind during the course of the series." Before the season is written, Moffat has the season's story arc mapped out. He would have known before he wrote the first script what the Hybrid would have been.

I'm pretty sure he's stated that he's changed elements over the course of a series, although I don't have a quote. He can see how things are shaping up and make adjustments based on how things play out.

Mr Awe

 

[Christopher]

I don't believe there was a consensus as to what the hybrid was going to be during the course of the series. So, it would not have been possible to be "what everyone thought."

But the Gallifreyans did jump to the conclusion that the Hybrid being present at the fall of Gallifrey meant that it would destroy Gallifrey. That's the part I'm talking about. It never occurred to them that the Hybrid would just happen to be there because he, she, it, or they time-travelled forward to the very end of the universe.

 

[The Wormhole]

I'm pretty sure he's stated that he's changed elements over the course of a series, although I don't have a quote. He can see how things are shaping up and make adjustments based on how things play out.

IIRC the only major change he made was when he decided to abandon the idea of making Victorian Clara from The Snowmen the Doctor's companion and instead killed Victorian Clara and made a new modern day Clara the companion. This change was made late in the day, brought about by his decision to cast Jenna Coleman as Oswin in Asylum of the Daleks after she'd already been cast as Clara. The decision (which forced re-writes to the rest of season 7) was only possible because Moffat already knew he wanted to end the season with Clara going into the Doctor's timeline. The story arcs are always mapped out before any scripts are written.

But more relevant to this discussion, an interview with Moffat on the Blu-ray of Last Christmas he says at the time the interview was filmed he already had season 8's arc planned out and a few scripts had been written. I'm certain that included what the Hybrid is supposed to be.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I want to know how Rassilon survives 2 billion years? Wasn't the Doctor in the confession dial for 2 billion years? So who was the old dude calling himself Rassilon?

 

[Christopher]

I want to know how Rassilon survives 2 billion years? Wasn't the Doctor in the confession dial for 2 billion years? So who was the old dude calling himself Rassilon?

Rassilon had "died" early in Time Lord civilization, according to "The Five Doctors," yet he was resurrected to lead the Time War, according to "The End of Time." Time Lords have a flexible relationship with time and death.

Also, it's a longstanding and never-explained conceit of the series that events on Gallifrey always happen "now" relative to whatever time the Doctor happens to be in, and whenever he encounters them, it's always in chronological sequence. So this is nothing new.

 

[The Wormhole]

I want to know how Rassilon survives 2 billion years? Wasn't the Doctor in the confession dial for 2 billion years? So who was the old dude calling himself Rassilon?

Two billion years go by within the Confession Dial, but outside it, it can't be that long. At the very least, the General hasn't aged at all since Day of the Doctor.

Another factor to consider, immediately after Day of the Doctor, Gallifrey was frozen in time, so there's likely a significant portion of time the Time Lords didn't experience. From the Doctor's perspective and not counting the 2 billion years inside the confession dial (since it was all on a loop and he wasn't supposed to remember it all anyway) then there's 1400 years between Gallifrey's disappearance at the end of the Time War and Hell Bent. The War Doctor was the "present" Doctor at the time, at around 800 or so. So you add 400 years to get to the Eleventh Doctor arriving at Trenzalore, and add on another thousand spent on Trenzalore. We don't really know what point in this 1400 years Gallifrey became "unfroze" though it clearly couldn't have been much more than a few centuries based on the fact the General hasn't aged. Rassilon's elderly appearance can be explained as he actually regenerated into an elderly body, perhaps as a result of the strain of the Master's Sith lightening attacks?

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Two billion years go by within the Confession Dial, but outside it, it can't be that long. At the very least, the General hasn't aged at all since Day of the Doctor.

Another factor to consider, immediately after Day of the Doctor, Gallifrey was frozen in time, so there's likely a significant portion of time the Time Lords didn't experience. From the Doctor's perspective and not counting the 2 billion years inside the confession dial (since it was all on a loop and he wasn't supposed to remember it all anyway) then there's 1400 years between Gallifrey's disappearance at the end of the Time War and Hell Bent. The War Doctor was the "present" Doctor at the time, at around 800 or so. So you add 400 years to get to the Eleventh Doctor arriving at Trenzalore, and add on another thousand spent on Trenzalore. We don't really know what point in this 1400 years Gallifrey became "unfroze" though it clearly couldn't have been much more than a few centuries based on the fact the General hasn't aged. Rassilon's elderly appearance can be explained as he actually regenerated into an elderly body, perhaps as a result of the strain of the Master's Sith lightening attacks?

OK I get that but it seems that he does remember all that and that's why he was so pissed at the Timelords.

 

[The Wormhole]

OK I get that but it seems that he does remember all that and that's why he was so pissed at the Timelords.

Moffat scripts aren't exactly the most consistent the best of days. Still, if we ignore Heaven Sent and focus entirely on Hell Bent where the Doctor does indeed remember two billion years worth on an endless loop, that still means that two billion years only went by within the Confession Dial, and outside it was significantly less. I'm sure the Time Lords are perfectly capable of creating a time localized time dilation field.

 

[Christopher]

Moffat scripts aren't exactly the most consistent the best of days. Still, if we ignore Heaven Sent and focus entirely on Hell Bent where the Doctor does indeed remember two billion years worth on an endless loop, that still means that two billion years only went by within the Confession Dial, and outside it was significantly less. I'm sure the Time Lords are perfectly capable of creating a time localized time dilation field.

No, the 2 billion years did pass outside; the Doctor realized that because the star patterns were changing. Time inside was constantly rerunning the same few days, but time outside kept moving forward, and the star patterns were the clue to that.

You were right before, in your previous post. The Doctors saved Gallifrey in "The Day of the Doctor" by freezing it in time in a pocket universe. It took them 2 billion years to get out again, and that's why they hadn't aged. (Maybe they weren't quite frozen, just really slowed down.)

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I think the Doctor was right to be a little pissed at the Timelords after all as he said the confession dial wasn't meant to be ever used as a torture device.

That brings up a question I just thought of. If these devices were very personal to each Timelord should they even be able to hack his and modify it the way they did? No encryption for the Doctor ...

 

[Mr Awe]

But the Gallifreyans did jump to the conclusion that the Hybrid being present at the fall of Gallifrey meant that it would destroy Gallifrey. That's the part I'm talking about. It never occurred to them that the Hybrid would just happen to be there because he, she, it, or they time-travelled forward to the very end of the universe.

Ah, got it, everyone in story.

Mr Awe

 

[diankra]

I enjoyed your synopsis. If it accurately reflects your state of ungrippedness about the story, I agree completely!


I'm pretty sure he's stated that he's changed elements over the course of a series, although I don't have a quote. He can see how things are shaping up and make adjustments based on how things play out.

Mr Awe

He definitely does. The arc is mapped out in his head, but the early episodes are shot before the final episodes are written, so if new ideasboccur in the meantime they get added in as complications.

 

[Lance]

The story goes that in Series Six he had a distinct answer to the whole "The Doctor Dies" plot thread, but that with the gap halfway through the broadcast schedule, the fans online started speculating and managed to hit upon exactly the clever plot twist he had in mind, so he rapidly changed gears (which had the side-effect of screwing with the plot logic and making the whole season feel inconsistent.) He's gotten better at hiding his seat-of-the-pants writing style than he used to.

 

[Photoman15]

This doesn't seem feasible. We may have had a gap in broadcast, but the entire season (series) was filmed before the first episode aired.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Don't forget that whole story of "Doctor Who" as in his name being part of the story arc for whatever reason. Pointless thread too since we never will find that out because if that happens the show ends.

 

[The Wormhole]

This doesn't seem feasible. We may have had a gap in broadcast, but the entire season (series) was filmed before the first episode aired.

Actually, filming of season 6 didn't actually finish until July 2011, about halfway through the mid-season gap. But, yeah, that would still be too late to change how the story would end.

 

[diankra]

IIRC the summer full-grown cornfield scenes from Let's Kill Hitler were shot very close to transmission in July, for obvious reasons.