Well more talking and less boom boom might have been OK
Things that don't add up the TNG edition
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
- Start date
Yup, and that would be the smart thing to do anyway.
Yet why Picard has to be told this reveals the public perception (even within Starfleet): that the Ba'ku indeed are primitive natives. Could this perception arise without malice? Perhaps - but OTOH we see said malice, in the form of a duck blind operation that supposedly would only be relevant in the studying of honestly primitive cultures. Why is this operation in place at all?
It might be that the camouflaged base and team will play some practical role in the future abduction and deportation of the Ba'ku, although it's difficult to imagine what this role could be when a mere push of a transporter button is normally needed for such. But then Starfleet invities in outside help, to wit, Data. Why is this?
Data's mission is not a secret, and is referred to as a "duck blind mission" in the official material that Picard gets to study before reaching the site. Yet this material leaves Picard ignorant of the fact that the natives are not natives. There's a lie in there somewhere, most definitely. And inviting Data may be frosting and strawberries on that lie, as it doesn't seem to serve any other purpose.
It still seems a big risk to do the duck blind mission, whether for smokescreen or for some direct mission-related purpose. What if one of the Ba'ku decides to dust off her old hexacorder and give the village a scan to more easily locate her missing pet rock?
Agreed - but it's not implausible for the villains to be stupid that way. Revenge is a dish best not served under bright fluorescent lights...
By pointing their super-duper guns at them? The Son'a tech is supposed to come to be because that's how those folks are like. Soran the El-Aurian also outmaneuvered his foes and victims by having been born better with tech. That the Ba'ku would shun violence doesn't mean they'd make plowshares of all their phased plasma disruptors. They can quickly whip out the tech needed to diagnose Data, after all.
(OTOH, digging up the old guns from their ceremonial graves would not help much against the eventual Son'a invasion, I guess.)
But there's a story to be told there all right. Not a story for the movie, by any means, but a story nevertheless. Did the Ba'ku originally come from Dominion territory, say, which is why the Son'a know the secret recipe of Ketracel White?
I guess that's the very reason I love discussing it. It really stands out as the One Star Trek Movie With A Plot.
(Plus it keeps on giving. I hadn't really previously paid attention to the fact that Picard explicitly got the full brochure on the duck blind mission before he dove into the Briar Patch, meaning that there really was an actual cover-up job aimed against the rest of Starfleet.)
Timo Saloniemi
The planet's in their territory, they claim it and they have the means to assert their claim. Plus the Ba'ku never even claim the planet.
They're not Daugherty's motives, they're the Federation council's motives.
Picard personally admires the Ba'ku's lifestyle, and he is developing a relationship with one of the Ba'ku women.
Picard is "emotionally compromised."
Plus he has personal problems with deportation, having had to oversee such an operation in "Journey's End" and to weather the backlash. It doesn't help that Dougherty has antagonized him, either.
Deep down, though, it's pretty obvious why the plot happens and why supposedly mature people engage in juvenile, spiteful activities. It's fairly in-your-face, even. Picard can't help but act like a teenager, on a planet like that!
Timo Saloniemi
Deep down, though, it's pretty obvious why the plot happens and why supposedly mature people engage in juvenile, spiteful activities. It's fairly in-your-face, even. Picard can't help but act like a teenager, on a planet like that!
Timo Saloniemi
That's true. They are all effected by the planet. Is Picard the Wesley Crusher of this film?? Does Wesley Crusher dance the Mambo alone in his quarters?
Also, the duck blind was Starfleets idea to help protect the Baku from "unnecessary risk," which the Sona complained about, so I guess they were simply observing and tracking the Baku's routines and habits, so that they could transport them to the holodeck ship safely without getting hurt.
Also, the duck blind was Starfleets idea to help protect the Baku from "unnecessary risk," which the Sona complained about, so I guess they were simply observing and tracking the Baku's routines and habits, so that they could transport them to the holodeck ship safely without getting hurt.
There's some decent arguments on both sides that never get brought up in the film's Luddite veneration of a bunch of space elves but basically:
1. Small or not, it's the Baku's planet they settled. They may not be natives but they're refugees and have nowhere else to go.
2. The Federation/Son'a intends to steal the planet for the land's resources (the magic particles).
3. The Federation/Son'a's plan will destroy the planet.
4. The Federation/Sona's plan will scoop up all the magical particles at once, destroying an amazing natural resource.
5. The Son'a are allied with the Dominion.
6. The Son'a are evil and were always going to betray the Federation anyway (and do).
7. The Son'a aren't actually interested in the particles as much as revenge against the Bak'u.
However, the creators wanted the issue to be about taking land from peoples to be absolutely evil and given RL issues that's not a terrible stance to take. It's just the Baku are a bunch of white people portrayed as living idyllic non-tech lives when it's Star Trek, the show about the joys of technology and diversity.
Also, nothing prevents the Federation from:
1. Asking if they could build a hospital on the other side of the planet
2. Studying the particles from space.
Why would they have nowhere else to go?
Yup. Except it's already theirs; if there was theft, it happened earlier on.
True. But planets are cheap, especially planets that look like California.
...And that one isn't cheap. So I wonder what the problem with the "let's just bring the patients in here" plan was. The Briar Patch is the perfect fence for cordoning off this valuable resource so that the UFP can control it. If the Son'a want to "help harvest" it, screw them. They can buy youth spa time from the UFP.
Or were. But the war is over now, and the Feds are desperate for new allies. Perhaps those with inside info on the Dominion would be the most welcome.
Then again, so are Klingons and Romulans, and the Feds never stop trying.
The Son'a probably were divided on that, though.
Certainly it is an interesting question to ask, and the movie does not shy away from actually asking it. How many does it take for right to turn onto wrong?
To be fair, there's a token black in the background.
Although to be fairer, that makes no sense. Why would a community of 600 people be diverse? (Even if we accept the odd conceit that diversity in space aliens who look like humans manifests as token negroids, rather than as token violetskins or floppy-ears.)
Except the Son'a would refuse cooperation if the Feds did that.
Except the only thing the Feds need Son'a cooperation for is the project to harvest the elixir and take it elsewhere. Why is that project so overwhelmingly preferred over the spa-on-the-planet one? This is the one thing never adequately covered. "Who would choose to live here?" is the feeble question asked.
Although the answer is even feebler. The Ba'ku didn't really choose to live there out of preference for the place - they are refugees living there out of fear of being discovered if they ever peek out of the Briar Patch.
Timo Saloniemi
Just a few points:
As has been mentioned before, in the worst of the Son'a cases, Dougherty indicated (and I think we have to assume he's being truthful here) that they were too far gone to be healed by normal exposure to the rings. Now maybe that should be a 'sorry to hear that, but there's nothing we can do'.
I still think the jury's out on how much of the Son'a's plan was about revenge and how much of it was about saving themselves. Yes, Ru'afo goes essentially crazy by the end, but Gallitin seems more reasonable. I don't think it's fair to project Ru'afo's views onto the Son'a entire.
As we don't know what the political makeup of the galaxy was at the time the Baku settled in the Briar Patch, much less what interstellar law would have to say on the subject, we have no idea how legitimate the Baku's claim to the planet could be found to be. It could be 'You've been on the planet 300 years, guess it's yours now...but hogging the rings is kind of a dick move...' but it could also be 'You never had any right to be there in the first place, and nobody's cool with you hogging the rings, so if you aren't willing to make any sort of compromise then we'll take matters into our own hands, for the good of thousands.'
As has been mentioned before, in the worst of the Son'a cases, Dougherty indicated (and I think we have to assume he's being truthful here) that they were too far gone to be healed by normal exposure to the rings. Now maybe that should be a 'sorry to hear that, but there's nothing we can do'.
I still think the jury's out on how much of the Son'a's plan was about revenge and how much of it was about saving themselves. Yes, Ru'afo goes essentially crazy by the end, but Gallitin seems more reasonable. I don't think it's fair to project Ru'afo's views onto the Son'a entire.
As we don't know what the political makeup of the galaxy was at the time the Baku settled in the Briar Patch, much less what interstellar law would have to say on the subject, we have no idea how legitimate the Baku's claim to the planet could be found to be. It could be 'You've been on the planet 300 years, guess it's yours now...but hogging the rings is kind of a dick move...' but it could also be 'You never had any right to be there in the first place, and nobody's cool with you hogging the rings, so if you aren't willing to make any sort of compromise then we'll take matters into our own hands, for the good of thousands.'
More like the good of trillions - the radiation healed some ailments, but rejuvenated all bodies, so there would not be such a thing as "not a patient". How to regulate this?
Would it even be possible to separate the healing from the rejuvenating? (LaForge shows how it could work: he was born blind, but the cure didn't turn him into an embryo!) Even if it were, would not endless wars be fought over the rejuvenating bit?
The UFP plan all along might actually have been to destroy the cure, in order to avoid the wars...
Timo Saloniemi
Would it even be possible to separate the healing from the rejuvenating? (LaForge shows how it could work: he was born blind, but the cure didn't turn him into an embryo!) Even if it were, would not endless wars be fought over the rejuvenating bit?
The UFP plan all along might actually have been to destroy the cure, in order to avoid the wars...
Timo Saloniemi
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My somewhat pragmatic view is that Admiral Dougherty was played like a fiddle by the Son'a. The Federation only knows about the world because of the Son'a and everything they know about it is filtered through the Son'a-shaped lens of things, ergo a lot of Dougherty's excuses and beliefs about what is necessary is because he's following their script. The spa or studying the particles thing is because he wants the particles now and they are giving him the plan.
Also, is the war over? I thought Insurrection took place during the Dominion War. The writers hated that arc apparently but they included enough references and theys aid, "The Federation is currently at war."
https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/c...idered_to_take_place/?st=k1z83m2b&sh=585e36ce
Mind you, I am curious how the Son'a lost to the Baku since they use technology and the others don't.
As a general rule, Admiral Archer showed that the good of the many can sometimes require you to be an asshole (that time he robbed a ship). We also have the fact the entire Federation vs. Maquis conflict is because the latter are morally justified but potentially going to drag millions more into a war with the Cardassian Union (which is what happened and they had the Dominion's help--billions died).
So Star Trek does have the view that Utilitarianism sometimes trumps absolute right and wrong. However, in this case, as much as Picard and Data are about this (hypocritically so) there's so much fishy going on with this deal and destroying an irreplaceable natural resource to use it now (that's actually relevant in RL) that I'm actually more on Picard's side than I used to be.
Also, is the war over? I thought Insurrection took place during the Dominion War. The writers hated that arc apparently but they included enough references and theys aid, "The Federation is currently at war."
https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/c...idered_to_take_place/?st=k1z83m2b&sh=585e36ce
Mind you, I am curious how the Son'a lost to the Baku since they use technology and the others don't.
As a general rule, Admiral Archer showed that the good of the many can sometimes require you to be an asshole (that time he robbed a ship). We also have the fact the entire Federation vs. Maquis conflict is because the latter are morally justified but potentially going to drag millions more into a war with the Cardassian Union (which is what happened and they had the Dominion's help--billions died).
So Star Trek does have the view that Utilitarianism sometimes trumps absolute right and wrong. However, in this case, as much as Picard and Data are about this (hypocritically so) there's so much fishy going on with this deal and destroying an irreplaceable natural resource to use it now (that's actually relevant in RL) that I'm actually more on Picard's side than I used to be.
This would be a likely way for the events to unfold, yes. We still need some sort of initiative from him or from the Federation so that they choose the Son'a "harvest everything" plan over the "just heal people here" one. Or then some extra initiative from the Son'a so that they sell their harvest strategy with more arguments than the ones we get to hear.
The whopping big problem with that is that it makes the heroes deserters. They attend banquets and then plan on moving to archaeological digs the duration of which is defined in seasons. They are unhappy with this, yes, but not because they would be kept away from the battles where folks are dying - only because they would prefer exploration.
The lesser problem would be this cooperation with a key ally of the enemy...
But the Ba'ku do use technology. They whip it out in order to diagnose Data; they might have whipped it out to oust the Son'a, too.
And of course the Son'a were the folks who wanted to use technology. This doesn't give them technology - it only makes them antagonist to the village elders, who might be hoarding all the tech. Perhaps the Ba'ku gave the Son'a a spacecraft for self-banishment. Or then they just gave them a lift that did not involve access to spacecraft controls...
Timo Saloniemi
We got to consider though that just on its face alone, the fact that the Baku settled there 100 years before the Federation existed as a political entity, is a valid legal claim that could throw the whole thing into a legal mess.
I mean just that only, even if the Federation can show a chain of custody or something. Just the technical fact alone is enough cause litigation controversy, condemnations, investigations etc.
I think there is some type of system in place where a neutral party or third party can hold hearings.
I mean if they seriously were able to go that route, with a lawyer it could go like this;
Baku Advocate: "So did the Federation exist as a political identity in 2066?"
Fed Representative: "No, it did not"
Baku Advocate: "So could the Federation claim ownership of Baku in that year 2066?"
It may be a play on technicality, but that alone could be enough to cause a legal problem.
I could never really sit through Insurrection, but just through small pieces of it. And my first assumption was that the Federation owned the planet. Then later on by chance I caught the date the Baku said they settled on the planet.
And like the thread says, things didn't add up. They had to age Baku a lot in order to show how young they appeared to be because of the anti aging effects of the rings.
So they did 300 years. But that puts it before the Federation was founded, and I wonder if the writers failed to catch that and didn't notice.
The Federation does have borders, that much is made clear throughout all the series, but there must be hundreds of inhabited planets within Federation Space that don't "belong" to the Federation.
In the movie, they don't say that it's a Federation world, just that the planet/briar patch is within Federation space.
If it were Kirk, he would just eviscerate the rings. When it comes to Utopias, Kirk is the destroyer. To him, Immortality is bad. Life is about struggle, adversity, hardship, progress, cultural momentum, living and dying, etc.
In the movie, they don't say that it's a Federation world, just that the planet/briar patch is within Federation space.
If it were Kirk, he would just eviscerate the rings. When it comes to Utopias, Kirk is the destroyer. To him, Immortality is bad. Life is about struggle, adversity, hardship, progress, cultural momentum, living and dying, etc.
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Well, during the Augment arc the Briar Patch comes up as a talking point, and it's implied though perhaps not outright stated that it's Klingon territory, which suggests that the Klingons gave or lost that region of space to the Feds at some point before the events of INS. If that was considered Klingon space at the time the Baku settled there, then the Baku should probably be thanking their lucky stars that the Klingons evidently didn't find the planet at any point.
But we don't know whether interstellar law or Federation law says anything about squatter's rights...not that the Klingons would have likely allowed anyone else to find out about the planet. Of course, if Dougherty is telling the truth then even if there are squatter's rights then the Council chose to make an exception in this case.
I still feel there would have been some poetic justice to the notion that Our Heroes make their case to the Council only to get back 'What part of what Dougherty said to you was unclear?'
Also I've always assumed the film is set during the war. Otherwise it's especially unclear how Ambassador Worf is suddenly on the E in a Starfleet uniform as though nothing happened.
But we don't know whether interstellar law or Federation law says anything about squatter's rights...not that the Klingons would have likely allowed anyone else to find out about the planet. Of course, if Dougherty is telling the truth then even if there are squatter's rights then the Council chose to make an exception in this case.
I still feel there would have been some poetic justice to the notion that Our Heroes make their case to the Council only to get back 'What part of what Dougherty said to you was unclear?'
Also I've always assumed the film is set during the war. Otherwise it's especially unclear how Ambassador Worf is suddenly on the E in a Starfleet uniform as though nothing happened.
Plus the B'aku have amazing time stopping powers, they can slow time down by sheer willpower. That seems a handy trick to learn, and they probably used it when evicting the S'ona.
Maybe the Son'a know how to do that but figured showing off that kind of talent wouldn't help them win any pity points.
Good point.
...Although, as mentioned, we need not assume that a nickname given by Arik Soong would actually stick; the Briar Patch of ENT need not be the same as the Briar Patch of INS any more than it need be the Briar Patch of Br'er Rabbit. The VFX doesn't look all that similar (although we only see the anomaly as a Klingon computer representation in ENT).
http://ent.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/4x06/augments_081.jpg
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=57657&fullsize=1
The relevant dialogue from "The Augments":
So it's not exactly Klingon space, and it's actually space that Starfleet might access. Quite possibly something the UFP would be interested in owning, although since the action never actually reaches the location, we don't get specific dialogue on who currently owns the place.
The relevant dialogue from ST:INS:
A bit of detaching from the fully consummated ownership idea there, but of course the Admiral is lying in order to dissuade Picard from visiting.
So the UFP claims the "space", and Dougherty thinks this means the UFP "has" the planet. Of course, if it is in UFP space, this de facto blocks access for apparent intruders like the Son'a. But if there's to be a partnership, the the Son'a aren't intruders and the issue isn't one of them trying to fight their way to the place by force, and we're thus talking de jure.
Picard seems to be an expert in law, maneuvering his way around the Sheliak and all. He isn't seeing an opening here.
OTOH, we never hear of interstellar law existing, in the sense of it affecting the broader galactic affairs. If two parties agree to anything, it's by a bilateral treaty, and enforcing consists of both sides playing nice, until they don't.
Indeed, Dougherty might have had the exact right idea in letting Riker and the E-E go, and the villain was doomed by his own villainy there.
Of course with the developments, the Council necessarily calls for a "halt" and a "top-level review", and may be under a bit of pressure to actually reconsider things. But since the ring-harvesting scheme is now outdated anyway, this is of no practical relevance, and the forcible relocation of the Ba'ku can be abandoned to no loss since the spas elsewhere on the planet are the only practical way to proceed anyway.
How so? It is during the war that this would be unlikely to happen.
...And why would the Son'a not know the trick as well? They are the Ba'ku, after all.
OTOH, if it's something the nice Ba'ku had the patience to develop, and the naughty Ba'ku did not, then it probably comes too late to affect the banishment thing.
Timo Saloniemi
...sorry, for just a second I imagined Santa visiting the Baku planet and giving out nice gifts to the Baku but lumps of coal to the Son'a....
Interstellar Law is explicitly mentioned during TUC, though how it was formed/administered is left as an exercise for the viewer.
And Worf's in Starfleet during the war, which I would assume makes it easier for him to take a couple of weeks of leave on the E than once he's become an ambassador and presumably resigned his commission in the process. Also the Ketracel White discussion with Riker and Troi seems kind of irrelevant if the war's over? And they don't seem to be discussing it in the past tense either, IIRC.
I am curious as to how long the Son'a have been afflicted with their current health crisis, given that one of my issues with the film is that I'm left with a feeling that the Son'a have suffered enough by the time of INS, which just makes the Baku's implied (since nobody ever asks and they never offer) unwillingness to help them seem more unsympathetic.
Interstellar Law is explicitly mentioned during TUC, though how it was formed/administered is left as an exercise for the viewer.
And Worf's in Starfleet during the war, which I would assume makes it easier for him to take a couple of weeks of leave on the E than once he's become an ambassador and presumably resigned his commission in the process. Also the Ketracel White discussion with Riker and Troi seems kind of irrelevant if the war's over? And they don't seem to be discussing it in the past tense either, IIRC.
I am curious as to how long the Son'a have been afflicted with their current health crisis, given that one of my issues with the film is that I'm left with a feeling that the Son'a have suffered enough by the time of INS, which just makes the Baku's implied (since nobody ever asks and they never offer) unwillingness to help them seem more unsympathetic.
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