They were not briefed because it was not their mission. I think they even went there against orders to go the opposite direction.
Things that don't add up the TNG edition
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
- Start date
Yep, Baryonic partIcles does mean all non-Dark Matter. We have to assume that the sweep is more specific, and the writers are simply scientific morons.
But the Federation is made up of the territories of it's members. Whichever member brought the brier patch to the Federation, how many centuries before the Ba'ku arrived had that member laid claim to it?
It's a possibility, but one problem is there isn't a member who is identified as the owner in the movie or anywhere else in canon. It sounded more like a wild region no one really claimed, like the Badlands in DS9.
And another tricky problem is the claim of ownership.
Lets say this member is warp capable at the time of the Baku settlement. Then with its sensors and ability to visit any planet in their system in minutes, it should have contacted the Baku long before they met or joined the Federation. If they already had warp capability and sensors, they should should seen the Baku and either confronted them as possible invaders or question them about their intentions.
Then let's say this member wasn't warp capable when the Baku settled on the planet. It can be argued that the Baku have a rightful claim to the planet, since the member planet couldn't legally claim a planet they never visited or landed on.
It would be as if some aliens settled on Saturn in 1800. And then humans later on in the 22nd century, join some galactic space federation. And then insist the aliens don't "belong on Saturn" because "it in our solar system".
Like I mentioned before, the movie makes it sounds as if the Briar Patch was seen as a "no man's land" that didn't really belong to anyone, and the Federation simply claimed custody of it, because the value of the radiation was too big to ignore.
If that's the case, (and it looks a lot like it) this is a colonialist move by the Federation, unless a solid legal explanation can be given.
Sure we got an identified owner: it was the UFP.
Singling out a specific member would serve no real purpose. We know there is generic UFP real estate out there, places identified as "Federation colonies" rather than "Andorian colonies" or "Colonies of those over-45 southpaws of Upper 32dn Street, New York who do not eat carrots".
As far as we know, this is not tricky in Star Trek. You make the claim, the claim sticks, disputes are settled with the force of arms and arms only. We never hear of a "legal", courtroom dispute.
Yet the Briar Patch. The reason the Ba'ku settled there in the first place, no doubt. The place where it is easy to hide. There may be a "should" there, but there is no "would".
We have no reason to think that this would be a valid reason to denounce a claim. It would be nice to learn whether somebody tried to denounce Kahless' claim to Boreth... And what came of his or her remnants.
And the side with the bigger guns would then win the dispute.
No, the movie only states the place is UFP property. The timeline is not established one way or another, but Picard for one tackles none of the claims you make above.
As for onscreen evidence perhaps found elsewhere, ENT draws a connection between a place the Klingons call Klach D'kel Brak and the name Briar Patch. Said English name is invented by Arik Soong on the spot, though, so
a) a Klingon claim to the place would seem to precede at least any human claim, and
b) there is little reason to think that this particular Briar Patch is the same as the one from ST:INS; there e.g. is no visual resemblance as such.
Of course humans will be naming these hard-to-get places "the Briar Patch" left and right, just like the galaxy will be littered with Cueballs and Badlands and the like. And indeed the name might simply be a translation of the original Bolian or Kaferian one (although it is not a direct translation of "Klach D'kel Brak" as far as we can tell).
If we nevertheless decide the INS Briar Patch is Klach D'kel Brak, we could easily argue that this hot spot (contested between the Klingons and the Romulans in the 2270s) would be claimed by the UFP in general, for strategic purposes, rather than by a specific member who would value the place for some local worth (especially as it's indicated there is no local worth, other than the utterly unknown fountain of youth). The original claim that precedes the Klingon and Romulan ones might come from the Vulcans, say, big names in the spheres-of-influence business in the past few centuries. Or then the UFP claim is that the place was Klingon first, and the Ba'ku illegally squatted there, and became UFP next through honest conquest, so the Ba'ku now illegally squatted on UFP turf.
Timo Saloniemi
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The germs are actually antibodies and since plasma fire can instantly trek-vaporise people and stuff...
It would If they did it thoroughly. Furthermore, after they find out it's the antibodies - which no one suspects at first - they should be able to detect them unless I missed/ forgot something.
On the off-chance that something survies the sweep, have a (sceleton) crew for a test run without anyone who has issues with using the transporter like Pulaski.
What exactly do you mean?
I assumed this is what you were talking about ("Starfleet is always chronically short of ships")?
Personnel seems to be the limiting factor.
The cadets have not expected any negative repercussions in case of success, and, according to Picard, they have been right about it.
Bold theory.
The satellite is kinda aimed at the training crafts as well, they do get visually detected. the point is: Sensors of the NX-01 can at least video what's going on, sensors FAR inferior to 24th century technology, primitive even compared to contemporary vulcan devices.
"Vulcan children play with toys that are more sophisticated."
- T'Pol (ENT episode "Broken Bow")
If they had nothing like a ship or a probe in sensor range, yeah, no wonder Starfleet has not noticed the explosion itself.
Even so they should have noticed that one of the damn planets is missing during the Reliant's mission of course, it's MUCH worse than the issue we are talking about.
The Feds should be very interested in what's going on in and around the Sol system, the E-D on her own scans a radius of ten light-years in "The Wounded" and it's not like sensors generally only work when you suspect something in a specific place.
Actually not Titan, but apparently the interaction between Saturn's magnetic fields and its rings.
Star Trek 2009 said:
Basically a good point, it might explain why other ships and installations across the system haven't seen anything. However, the sensors of the satellite (and the training crafts) have worked properly The Enterprise gets also positioned behind Titan while the satellite has a clear line of sight.
It only works if one accepts shitty satellite sensors and range plus nothing else in the vicinity that could have monitored the event including the evacuation stations on Mimas where the survivors have beamed themselves to.
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Well, DS9 "In the Hands of the Prophets" and TNG "Aquiel" show how ineffective both plasma and phaser beams are at actually making things disappear for good...
Which would probably be way more expensive and time-consuming than building a new ship altogether. They'd have to quite literally unscrew every single screw to achieve total sterilization with plasma. (Trust me, I've done my share of trying to remove supposedly easily vaporizing contaminants from assorted vacuum chambers with frantic plasma overkill sessions.)
We don't know how much that would help. When Tracey's original landing party beamed back up, the Exeter crew started dying, everywhere on the ship. This despite the landing party probably not visiting most of the spaces within the ship. The CMO realized what was happening, and managed to hold back death for a while somehow, despite being surrounded by the remains of less fortunate colleagues. What did he do? Was his delaying act dependent on isolation after all? On self-medication? On being the last to have even indirect contact with the landing party (even though the CMO probably would actually be the very first)? The point is, it didn't work. Somehow, within minutes, there was no safe place anywhere on the ship. Detecting that you're contaminated everywhere is not a particularly major step in getting decontaminated...
See "Aquiel" and "In the Hands of the Prophets".
Not quite. I meant the hero ship very seldom is the only one available, contrary to popular belief. And the only time she is the only one available at Earth is ST:TMP.
Why, though? Why not simply train more personnel? If one city-sized Academy isn't sufficient, then build fifteen.
Do you mean this bit? "If it worked, you would thrill the assembled guests and Locarno would graduate as a living legend."
I just take it to mean that Locarno would have graduated with poor marks and all sorts of demerits, yet as a legend nevertheless.
...I'd argue the opposite: that since the sat only got a random snapshot, it wasn't actually all that carefully aimed at anything much during its "standard sensor sweep".
But again, only when they get pointed at the target of interest. And the way that random sat only got that random image when the cadets were briefly within range suggests the cadets actually trusted they were outside this range.
And an explosion would be much easier to notice than a volume of space that has nothing in it. I mean, most of space is like that.
But again not. How can you tell a planet is missing? "This spot of space is empty" cannot plausibly bring up any flags, again before all space is empty in the general case. You have to specifically scan for a planet in order to notice that it is not there, no two ways about it. What possible reason would Terrell's crew have to scan for a planet they aren't interested in? Kirk generally doesn't even scan planets he is interested in...
Except they sorta do. Nothing at all was detected or reported about this suspicious formation, after all, until somebody went forensic about it.
Perhaps if you tell the sensors to look for Cardassian warships, they do not argue with you. But if you don't, well, a Cardassian warship will sneak up on you, such as in "The Wounded".
Well, diving into Titan seemed to feature into it somehow...
Except they failed to produce constant coverage, which probably was what the cadets predicted would happen, them knowing their Titan and all. This is how you spoof radars today, too: they may work 100% fine much of the time, but you throw them off the track at key moments and get, well, off the track.
We don't quite know what defines getting out of range of the sat. Going behind Titan might well be it.
Not "could have monitored", but "would have monitored", though. Why would anybody care?
Save for the Mimas station, that is. And even that one might only show interest if somebody sends an SOS.
Timo Saloniemi
The Ba'ku are in the same situation as the Humans in the episode Ensigns of Command, they're on someone elses planet. Instead of bombarding the Ba'ku from orbit, the Federation was just going to quietly move them out in the middle of the night.
Either way, eviction.
If there was a way of collecting the particles without there being any impact upon life on the surface, the Federation probably would have left the Ba'ku where they were.
...Although probably the "there is no way" thing was but a filthy Son'a lie. The Son'a were the ones with the knowhow, and probably could have pulled two overseas colonies' worth of wool over the eyes of Starfleet's best experts. Oh, perhaps the collector would have worked the way the Son'a said it would, in addition to achieving the main goal of destroying the rings and the planet. But just beaming down on the other side of the planet and then spending a relaxing week or decade there would probably have sufficed for the needs of most patients, including most if not all of the Son'a. Rua'fo thus had to up the ante somehow, and block that option from being considered.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
And the Enterprise in a battle where there's an explosion, and an extra THEN jumps up in the air and tumbles over things-- about 5 seconds after the explosion. lol.
They're in the same situation, except for that one simple date. It was never brought up in the move. A lot of questions revolve around that.
And an explosion on the Enterprise during a space battle, where a few seconds after, an extra THEN jumps high in the air and tumbles over stuff. Lol.
Buts that's exactly where things start to not add up. If was property of the Federation in general and not just a single member, that's exactly what makes it tricky.
The Baku settled on the planet in 2066. The Federation was founded in 2161. Almost a century later. Based on that, the Fed's claim isn't clear at all, without some type of explanation.
As far as intergalactic politics, there is some type of neutral power that hears disputes like this. I think Picard mentioned one of them was in that same episode, Ensigns of Command.
The Baku could file a claim to show cause--if they settled the planet almost 100 years before the Federation existed, it should get attention.
There's no end of things wrong with Insurrection. You could spend all day pulling at various threads.
True enough. It's just that "we inherited it" is a pretty trivial explanation, and whom they inherited it from would not really affect the situation. If it's theirs, it's theirs, and they aren't giving it up. And odds are that they wouldn't be giving it away even if there was no fountain of youth there; that bullies like the Son'a come to ask would in itself be grounds for saying no.
This is interesting as such. I can only spot a reference to "arbitrators", who are not a superior power that can dictate anything on the treaty participants, nor a neutral organization - they are a mere treaty conceit, a bunch of random nobodies from a pool of nobodies that either side can pick to serve their selfish purposes. Picard could probably have chosen the Pakleds to arbitrate here. (If they arbitrated "wrong" in the Briar Patch case, they'd just be ignored. Or told to arbitrate better, or else.)
Of course the Sheliak are a superior power that can sweep the floor with Starfleet ships, so this is not where we would expect references to interstellar mediation between true peers. But mediation between Klingons and Feds appears to involve random riffraff as well, individuals like Curzon Dax or Riva rather than established neutral organizations. I rather doubt any general catchall treaties exist as regards the Briar Patch, either - just more of these case-by-case bi- or unilateral pacts.
Even without the existence of any sort of an interstellar court, the Ba'ku could make their voice heard via some other channels, and the UFP government itself would be put in hot water by its own citizens and by pressure from abroad. Pretending that the Ba'ku are "protected" by the Prime Directive and thus not to be communicated with is an excellent countermove, and one that the UFP might make merely to simplify things, without any deeper nefarious designs.
Timo Saloniemi
Except nobody ever suggests that anyone's going to claim the Baku are protected by the PD. Quite the opposite. Dougherty asserts (evidently truthfully) that the Baku aren't native to the planet and consequently aren't entitled to PD protection.
Though I still maintain that the smartest thing the Son'a could have done was identify the relationship between them and the Baku and then played the "internal affair" card.
Of course, the mystery of how the Baku ever exiled the Son'a to begin with is left as an exercise for the viewer.
I don't even know why I keep discussing this movie, as there are so many unanswered and relevant questions that any arguments we come up with are based on at-best extraneous evidence and likely biased in favor of our own opinions on the matter.
Though I still maintain that the smartest thing the Son'a could have done was identify the relationship between them and the Baku and then played the "internal affair" card.
Of course, the mystery of how the Baku ever exiled the Son'a to begin with is left as an exercise for the viewer.
I don't even know why I keep discussing this movie, as there are so many unanswered and relevant questions that any arguments we come up with are based on at-best extraneous evidence and likely biased in favor of our own opinions on the matter.
But Doughherty's motives were somewhat less then honorable. Why did the Federation want to hog all the metaphasic particles?
It's been a while since I've watched it. So the Federation wanted to share the particles. So what's the problem? I don't get why Picard goes AWOL to help the B'aku then if they're not native to the planet.
The Federation Council has apparently approved a plan to relocate the Baku against their wishes. Our Heroes take exception to this and the E-E leaves to bring the matter to the attention of TPTB while most of the senior staff do what they can to delay efforts to beam the Baku off the planet.
Who has the better legal and/or moral claim is left as an exercise for the viewer, but if we assume that we're supposed to root for Our Heroes, then...
Who has the better legal and/or moral claim is left as an exercise for the viewer, but if we assume that we're supposed to root for Our Heroes, then...
I've always been torn whether or not to support our heroes in this movie. The Federation uses underhanded methods to move those people rather then just ask them for help.
For me the main issue is that I don't believe the welfare of 600 people merits the suffering of thousands (millions?).
But really the main issue is that the events of the movie seem hopelessly contrived to fit within the runtime of the film. There were some interesting issues here and they should have been allowed the room for discussion, or the plot should have been streamlined so that there wouldn't be so many questions.
But really the main issue is that the events of the movie seem hopelessly contrived to fit within the runtime of the film. There were some interesting issues here and they should have been allowed the room for discussion, or the plot should have been streamlined so that there wouldn't be so many questions.
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