These are the voyages...

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Enterprise' started by Papermoon, Jul 25, 2017.

  1. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So here's how I'd have done TATV, had UPN given Berman the two hours he asked for instead of just one, if they had more time to come up with a better story, and if Frakes and Sirtis just had to be in it...

    Post-Nemesis. Riker and the Titan are officiating a peace treaty on Romulus. While there, it is discovered that there's wreckage from the Earth-Romulan war in a museum, and it's the first time anyone from the Federation has ever seen it. Among the wreckage is the "black box" from the long-lost NX-01, which may hold the secret of its disappearance 200 years before. With 24th century technology, Riker and Troi are able to witness the last days of the ENT crew via a holodeck recreation. However, they are just observers, not interacting in any way with the recording. TATV would be presented as more like two people trying to solve a centuries' old mystery instead of some idiotic play-acting in order to make a personal decision about something the audience doesn't care about.
     
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  2. pookha

    pookha Admiral Admiral

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    It doesn't fit in Pegasus timeline. Way they killed trip was stupid and inept. Riker didn't play around in holodeck as much as others. With all things picard had him doing wouldn't have time. It makes Riker look even weaker. What had great effect on Riker was his respect for Picard and seeing the dead of Pegasus.plus it was their chance to not only screw Enterprise fans but mess with a Ron Moore episode.
     
  3. Prax

    Prax Commodore Commodore

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    Riker was feeling guilt over the whole thing, and knew what he did was wrong, but he was ordered not to divulge any information about the cloak. He was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Telling Picard anything might have ruined his career.

    They have the long Voyage out to the Neutral Zone where Riker is uneasy and unsure what to do. Picard's pissed at him. When he finally boards the Pegasus and they find the phase cloak thingy, and they have this conversation:

    So Riker is all messed up, he goes to Troi(like usual) or she senses something's wrong, and she wants him to get some perspective on why the Federation has the principles it does. "Will, I can't tell you what you should do, but maybe check out this new holonovel about the great Captain Archer. It's called 'Rise of the Federation.' I think you'll appreciate it."
     
  4. pookha

    pookha Admiral Admiral

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    You can tell it is seeing the dead which effects him. Then on the bridge to save enterprise he tells all. I need to check Pegasus script but in past I went through both side by side.there are issues.it was chance for braga to screw with Moore story. Any due to Coto taking over berman braga had very little do with shoW till they had chance drop bag of poop on fans. It makes Riker look even weaker. When he is supposed to be over seeing things he screws around multi times on holodeck. It plays like something done to make Riker look bad . Perhaps some others involved in Pegasus incident cropped this up just before he became captsin of Titan
     
  5. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    Here's an idea for a movie night... I wonder if anybody in the last twelve years has ever actually tried this.

    Watch "The Pegasus" partway through, then pause it.

    Next, watch TATV in its entirety.

    Finally, watch the rest of "The Pegasus."

    :rofl:

    Kor
     
  6. Spot261

    Spot261 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No, I've never done that
     
  7. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Someone did something like that once. Bottom line? Things don't sync up. Especially at the end, when Riker in TATV says he's ready to talk to Picard? In "The Pegasus," the Enterprise is trapped inside the asteroid at that time. In TATV, it's still out in space.
     
  8. Prax

    Prax Commodore Commodore

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    You're placing an awful lot of ill will on to the producers. There's was no intention to "dump on the fans" or "screw Ron Moore" It's likely that Braga had a hand in writing Pegasus. Braga was showrunner of Enterprise season 1-3, before being able to step back. Berman was Executive Producer for all 4 seasons, just like he was for all 7 seasons of Voyager & DS9, and almost all of TNG. Coto and Braga have worked together again since Enterprise.

    It's just an episode. It ain't that serious. There are plenty of other "bad" episodes of Star Trek, surely ones that are worse. TATV also has some nice moments in it, like T'Pol and Archer's conversation at end.
     
  9. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    TATV is universally hated by pretty much everyone. I can't think of any other Star Trek episode that comes close to that.
     
  10. Prax

    Prax Commodore Commodore

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    I know. That's what I was calling out. It's just an episode. And it can't be the worst. There episodes in Ent that I think are much worse, let alone factoring in the other 600 episodes and movies.

    It shouldn't be such a big deal. I am however happy to Enterprise making a bit of a comeback in fan appreciation, though.
     
  11. Willow

    Willow Captain Captain

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    I think it's a "big deal " to fans because it was the finale. Fans tend to get over emotional at "finales"- regardless of the show. I disliked it. However, I found Demons and Terra Prime to be so good that I see them as the "finale". Especially since it was a 2-parter. And it probably helps that I only found ENT 3 years ago and binge watched the entire series in a matter of weeks, so I didnt have the time invested in it like most fans. There were indeed other cringe worthy episodes that would give TATV a run for its money!

    And if you take into account the rest of the franchise, you are right..there are some stinkers out there. Heck, I couldn't even make it through the entire series of Voyager!
     
  12. Prax

    Prax Commodore Commodore

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    That's good, because the Producers saw it that way too. Terra Prime aired on finale day alongside TATV in a two-hour special. It's the perfect bookend to the series. The themes and callbacks to Broken Bow, Xindi, the episode "Home", the speeches, everything. Some critics at the time hailed it as "Enterprise's greatest episode." While I wouldn't go that far, it's still a solid episode and finale.

    TATV has some of these elements, but it's ten years later, the perspective is 24th century looking back. So its an epilogue, and a crossover, and a send off. It was originally meant to be a season 2 episode, and kept getting pushed back.

    Yeah. I never saw Enterprise when it aired. I avoided it on Netflix until last fall, after going through all of the other shows. I heard it was bad, and that sort of colored how I viewed the characters and stories when I tried watching it, but eventually you get invested. I enjoyed it.
     
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  13. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No, the producers didn't see it that way. The only people who consider Demons/Terra Prime to be ENT's finale are the fans. The people who aired the show and produced the show considered TATV to be the finale, because that's what it was. And it aired when it did because UPN wanted the show done with and off the air as soon as possible.

    Berman originally wanted a two-hour finale for TATV. UPN gave him one hour, and told him to rush it, because they didn't give a crap about the show and just wanted it over with.
     
  14. Prax

    Prax Commodore Commodore

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    They had a two hour slot, and aired both episodes. There's an interview with Manny Coto on TrekFM's warp five podcast, episode 100, where he explains what I just said, and that Terra Prime was his series finale. There's also an interview with Brannon Braga on the same podcast where he makes a similar statement. And there was the teaser for the finale which shows both Terra Prime and TATV as a 2 hour finale
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
  15. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Manny Coto had no involvement with TATV. So his opinion is just his opinion. And Braga sure as hell didn't think Terra Prime was the finale at the time. Backpedaling years after the fact doesn't count.
     
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  16. KirkusOveractus

    KirkusOveractus Commodore Commodore

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    This is something that I've been trying to explain as well, and it doesn't seem to sink in. The whole 2 hour finale thing and all, when it aired it was said right before TATV aired that it was the series finale.

    On DVDs and airdates, it's the finale.

    This is like saying that "Turnabout Intruder" isn't really the final episode of TOS because the cast didn't feel like it should be the last episode.
     
  17. Prax

    Prax Commodore Commodore

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    I never said that TATV wasn't a finale. It's simply not the only finale. When someone says "I just pretend Terra Prime is the finale" it's like...you don't have to. The guy running the show planned it that way, and wrote it that way. It's a finale for the series of Enterprise. It's the last episode to take place in the 22nd century, and it rounds off the character and story arcs that began in season 1. If guy in charge of the overall story of Ent wrote a conclusion to that story, there's no shame in calling it what it is.

    TATV was written as an epilogue. Coto describes it as "like a post season episode" It takes place in the 24th century, and seeks to tie all the shows together. It's a finale for Star Trek itself. Look no further than the closing scene. Berman and Braga wrote it on their own and have always called it a "Swan Song." That's not backpedaling at all.

    So for all intents, it is that which it was created to be. I'm not arguing about what the production order is, or which one comes last on the DVD set, or which one is called "finale" on memory alpha. I'm talking about the purpose of each episode, why they were made, the goals they set out to accomplish, and how they function as stories. There are two finales at the end of Enterprise. One concludes the story and series of Enterprise, the other is a Swan Song to Star Trek.
     
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  18. KirkusOveractus

    KirkusOveractus Commodore Commodore

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    Well, first, you are arguing what is the finale. Second, are you aware that there can not be two finales to anything? That by definition a finale is just that?

    Third, given that there is still Star Trek being produced, it couldn't have been a swan song to anything. TATV was the finale to ENT. Are you familiar to production in TV, movies, music? Lots of times you will not have the same people running things from show to show, movie to movie, song to song. Just because Coto feels like what he did was the finale, the reality says otherwise.
     
  19. The Lonely Man

    The Lonely Man Commander Red Shirt

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    I finally rewatched this last night. Been 12 years since I have seen it as I skipped it on my last Enterprise Rewatch.

    Surely It can't be as bad as I remember it ?

    Surely It can't still be as bad as everyone says it is ?

    I was right. It wasn't.

    It was worse. An abomination of an episode. As bad as Trip getting killed off was, as bad as two guest actors getting prominence in the series finale was, both those pale in comparison to the nonsensical notion we are being asked to swallow that Trip and T'Pol called it off after the death of their daughter and were never romantically linked again.

    How this made it onto our TV screens shall remain an eternal mystery. It shall certainly never make it onto mine again.
     
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  20. Prax

    Prax Commodore Commodore

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    Manny Coto's plan for season 5 was to have Trip and T'Pol discontinue their relationship.