I hated it because it was a lousy story that sucked shit. Is that a complex enough reason? 5 years later.....nope, still hate it.
These Are The Voyages - Your Opinion, Please
- Thread starter thew40
- Start date
Tatv was and is still a lousy ending for the series five years later.The way the Enterprise cast was shoved aside for a Tng holodeck fantasy was rididculous. Killing off Trip was a stupid thing to do. To kill off a favorite character. I hated it.
At least the Enterprise books fixed that problem with The good that men do of bringing Trip back and much more satisfying. The writers Andy& Micheal & editor Margaret Clark brought him back in a cleaver way that fixes this mess of a finale .And the Enterpise crew got important things to do and to see The Romulan war continue in the books.
At least the Enterprise books fixed that problem with The good that men do of bringing Trip back and much more satisfying. The writers Andy& Micheal & editor Margaret Clark brought him back in a cleaver way that fixes this mess of a finale .And the Enterpise crew got important things to do and to see The Romulan war continue in the books.
Any revisit to an older TREK franchise episode that can't get Marina Sirtis's STUPID WIG CORRECT is destined for Epic Faildom from the get-go.How hard was it to fashion one that closely resembled or even matched her 'do in "The Pegasus"? It was only 11-1/2 years between episodes. We're not talking about rebuilding the Lighthouse of Pharos from scratch here.
Nuff said...
I think the idea of tying Enterprise up in a bow, with a sort of historical perspective episode was a pretty neat idea. Alas, the execution of that is where it falls down. I appreciate the intent behind it, and it bugs me to see people taking it so seriously, since I'm pretty sure it really was intended to be a 'valentine' to the fans. It's just a shame it turned out so badly.
They could easily have used Riker and Troi just before Nemesis, or even after, perhaps during the opening of negotiations with the Romulans, looking over old records of the end of the Romulan War/forming of the Federation. Just have a simple framing story, and let the audience 'see' the events Riker and Troi have been reading about. Properly done, it could have been incredibly bittersweet.
A sadly missed opportunity, IMHO.
They could easily have used Riker and Troi just before Nemesis, or even after, perhaps during the opening of negotiations with the Romulans, looking over old records of the end of the Romulan War/forming of the Federation. Just have a simple framing story, and let the audience 'see' the events Riker and Troi have been reading about. Properly done, it could have been incredibly bittersweet.
A sadly missed opportunity, IMHO.
Trip's "death" is not the reason I hate this episode. I hate it because, other than T'Pol, none of his "friends" gave a damn. Archer blathers cliches. The Nosebleed Trio whines about crummy seats for The Big Day.
If you're going to kill off a main character, you have got to deliver the emotional payoff. For God's sake, Archer even dreamed of giving Porthos a funeral. But his best friend of 20 years? Nothing. And NO, an off-screen funeral doesn't count.
That's right. TATV was years in the future. Given that Archer met trip 8 years prior to the launching of the NX-01, he'd known him for 20 years at that point. At least Kirk was allowed to cry and officiate at Spock's funeral. Malcolm had known Trip for 10 years and his biggest concern was not getting a VIP chair.
There was zero payoff. Zero emotional fallout. Trip died for nothing. Security could easily have come and saved Archer. It made no sense and, irritatingly, removed Trip from any tie in to Trek history in a meaningful way. They broke up Trip and T'Pol. Every bit of character development was undone. It was a piece of crap. A valentine? That doesn't make any sense. How could Braga be that clueless?
It boggles the mind, and I'm saying that 5 years later after plenty of time to calm down and reevaluate; it still ruined Enterprise for me. I don't watch ENT reruns because there's no point to them.
Had Trip's death held any meaning whatsoever, had he died to save his daughter so something of him remained, or to save Vulcan....anything but blowing himself up when security was right there and then having no one react to it--I'd have made peace with it eventually. But it was for nothing. Nothing.
There was zero payoff. Zero emotional fallout. Trip died for nothing. Security could easily have come and saved Archer. It made no sense and, irritatingly, removed Trip from any tie in to Trek history in a meaningful way. They broke up Trip and T'Pol. Every bit of character development was undone. It was a piece of crap. A valentine? That doesn't make any sense. How could Braga be that clueless?
It boggles the mind, and I'm saying that 5 years later after plenty of time to calm down and reevaluate; it still ruined Enterprise for me. I don't watch ENT reruns because there's no point to them. Had Trip's death held any meaning whatsoever, had he died to save his daughter so something of him remained, or to save Vulcan....anything but blowing himself up when security was right there and then having no one react to it--I'd have made peace with it eventually. But it was for nothing. Nothing.
Really? I think having an entire scene devoted to Trip and saying he would've wanted Archer to give his big speech.
And the reason Braga wrote in Riker as the cook is so all the characters could say what they really liked about Trip, kind of the role of a counselor, and talk about their feelings.
How would *you* want all the characters to remember Trip?
This sentence kinda feels unfinished. What exactly is it that you "think" about this?
With feeling.
Malcolm, Hoshi and Travis lamenting Trip's absence instead of whining about their nosebleed seats and blathering about their ambitions.
Archer coming up with something besides lousy cliches when talking about Trip with T'Pol. Not to mention telling his grieving parents Trip would want them to forget about mourning him and attend the charter signing, an event that will marked by jubilation (hardly the circumstances suitable for the Tuckers' presumed emotional state).
T'Pol refraining from griping about Trip telling her she would miss her mother less as the years passed (which I don't believe Trip would ever have said to her). Think he ever got over the deaths of his sister and infant daughter?
Even Phlox had completely recovered from the loss of his patient.
That's right. TATV was years in the future. Given that Archer met trip 8 years prior to the launching of the NX-01, he'd known him for 20 years at that point. At least Kirk was allowed to cry and officiate at Spock's funeral. Malcolm had known Trip for 10 years and his biggest concern was not getting a VIP chair.
There was zero payoff. Zero emotional fallout. Trip died for nothing. Security could easily have come and saved Archer. It made no sense and, irritatingly, removed Trip from any tie in to Trek history in a meaningful way. They broke up Trip and T'Pol. Every bit of character development was undone. It was a piece of crap. A valentine? That doesn't make any sense. How could Braga be that clueless?
Had Trip's death held any meaning whatsoever, had he died to save his daughter so something of him remained, or to save Vulcan....anything but blowing himself up when security was right there and then having no one react to it--I'd have made peace with it eventually. But it was for nothing. Nothing.
Stated perfectly!!!!!
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I'm still not sure, from this description, how you would want it to be done other than: not like it was. Hard to imagine, for me, what that would encompass.
Commodore, it's not hard to encompass. They wanted the characters to react, period. They wanted some honest emotion. Archer created a clone of Trip (yes, to save the ship) but he would have killed Sim to get his friend back, not just his engineer back, because he didn't give a damn if Sim was a perfect copy--he was still a copy. That's emotion. You can call it moral or immoral, but you buy it from Archer as a character. The script earns it.
Commodore, they wanted something like this--people, take a look at the 2 minute scene in this link. Even if you aren't familiar with this show, this scene will affect you. It's Dean Winchester, a 28 year old man crying over the dead body of his younger brother who's been knifed in the back, right before selling his soul into hell to bring him back to life. Everyone knew the younger brother would be back because he's the 2nd of only two regular cast members yet the scene still tore the audience to pieces. They wanted to see Archer do something like this. They wanted some devastation on someone's part. My fellow Trip fans, please take a look. Tell me you wouldn't have just cried for a scene like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x0PVhNzbYU
Commodore, they wanted something like this--people, take a look at the 2 minute scene in this link. Even if you aren't familiar with this show, this scene will affect you. It's Dean Winchester, a 28 year old man crying over the dead body of his younger brother who's been knifed in the back, right before selling his soul into hell to bring him back to life. Everyone knew the younger brother would be back because he's the 2nd of only two regular cast members yet the scene still tore the audience to pieces. They wanted to see Archer do something like this. They wanted some devastation on someone's part. My fellow Trip fans, please take a look. Tell me you wouldn't have just cried for a scene like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x0PVhNzbYU
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OK, I'm going to patronize you by pretending that you never saw "The Wrath of Khan" and cannot fathom a way to honor a fictional character who sacrificed his "life" to save his captain.
How about a funeral?
How about someone, ANYONE in that damn crew shedding a few tears?
How about Archer choking up while delivering the eulogy?
How about footage from earlier seasons as each of his friends recall his kindness and friendship?
Archer could remember being surprised when Trip presents the video chip with the water polo match in Vox Sola; the comaraderie during the Geskana game in Desert Crossing.
Travis could recall Trip giving him the photo album in Horizon to share with his family.
T'Pol could recall Trip's kindness despite being hurt by her decision to marry that lout Koss.
Reed could recall Trip blowing out the "candle" after Reed confessed that he finally felt that he had found a place where he belonged, and now Enterprise was gone.
Heck, maybe they could have even recalled his courage and loyalty.
Reed might remember Trip climbing into the airlock to give him a better chance of survival.
In Cease Fire, he put Enterprise between the combatants to buy Archer time to reach a settlement.
He climbed a rope between Enterprise and Columbia while the ships were going at warp FIVE to get aboard the NX-01 to save the ship.
He disobeyed orders to return to Earth in Awakening in order to warn the Andorians of invasion (and was prepared to face court-martial for his trouble).
I hope this helps.
This is how you do a death scene:
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z8ohwF9A0k[/yt]
And this...
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20w-nuLcneU[/yt]
Any questions?
http://www.youtube.com/v/5Z8ohwF9A0k&hl=en&fs=1&http://www.youtube.com/v/5Z8ohwF9A0k&hl=en&fs=1&http://www.youtube.com/v/5Z8ohwF9A0k&hl=en&fs=1&
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z8ohwF9A0k[/yt]
And this...
[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20w-nuLcneU[/yt]
Any questions?
http://www.youtube.com/v/5Z8ohwF9A0k&hl=en&fs=1&http://www.youtube.com/v/5Z8ohwF9A0k&hl=en&fs=1&http://www.youtube.com/v/5Z8ohwF9A0k&hl=en&fs=1&
Ahhh, Farscape. The only show that's as crazy and bizarre as my beloved Supernatural. Outstanding character development on both. You should have linked the scene where Talyn Jon dies in front of Aeryn.
Ah, I see - you want a Spock send off. Thanks for the explanation.
Any revisit to an older TREK franchise episode that can't get Marina Sirtis's STUPID WIG CORRECT is destined for Epic Faildom from the get-go.
Nuff said...
Even the tint of her Starfleet uniform isn't right. Frankly, it's a wonder the Beebs even remembered the missing ship from that episode was called THE PEGASUS.
It's like Troi aged a decade in the space of one episode of TNG then reverted to her previous appearance in time for Pressman and Picard to find the Pegasus and get out of the asteroid field. I've seen more tightly constructed crossovers watching an old lady try to put on a bikini top.
No, not necessarily a "Spock" send off.
People in mourning generally cry -- men and women alike. I've attended funerals where people had difficulty getting through eulogies and remembrances. Archer had been friends with this man for 20 years. All we got were cliches and anger. How about sadness? For God's sake, Trip gave his life for Archer and you don't even get the sense that Archer appreciated the sacrifice. Once the scene with T'Pol passes there is no mention of Tucker by anyone in the crew.
I've come back and around again with this episode more than once. When it originally aired I just hated it. On rewatching it, I found a few things to like in it, especially the finale with the 3 captains doing voiceover. Now when I watch it I mostly just tend to write it off-it is really just a holodeck representation of events that we never truly saw as viewers. Who is to say how accurate this holodeck program really was? The fact that it is a holodeck program explains a lot of the bits that were out of character for the ENT cast. For me, ENT really ends with Terra Prime Part II and TATV is really just an add on.
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