Theory & revisions re: Kirk's rapid promotion(s) [3 merged]

[pookha]

Re: Kirk Cadet to Captain in one easy step? - My Theories (minor spoil

He has no track record for diplomacy experience, first contact experience, etc. - why

we cant be sure of that.
we know from tos that prime kirk went on important space missions even as a cadet..

But my first visit to Axanar was as a new fledged cadet on a peace mission

considering that kirk was possibly a lieutenant cadet when he visited the planet in private little war considering he said it was his first planetary survey.

especially since he said it happened 13 years in the past.

this is what i have been saying.
that abram kirk may have well also did a lot of special stuff while still a cadet.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Re: Kirk Cadet to Captain in one easy step? - My Theories (minor spoil

Cadet to captain in three years, not the worst "military" snafu that's been done in Star Trek. Doctor Crusher in the center seat during a combat situation comes to mind.

 

[jadcox@mindspring.com]

Re: Kirk Cadet to Captain in one easy step? - My Theories (minor spoil

Maybe Spock Prime paid a visit to Pike, or some of the Star Fleet brass, suggesting Kirk and hinting at his knowledge of the future? Or asked a senior Vulcan official to do so?

Maybe the timeline really WAS trying to repair itself?

Maybe character really is destiny?

 

[EnsignRicky]

Re: Kirk Cadet to Captain in one easy step? - My Theories (minor spoil

I can name that tune in four notes: He Saved The World

 

[clint g]

Re: Kirk Cadet to Captain in one easy step? - My Theories (minor spoil

Al Kaline was an incredibly young 19 in his first full season with the Tigers. He hit a respectable .276 in 504 at bats. The next year, at only 20, he hit a robust .340 with 27 home runs. He went on to have a Hall of Fame career.
Bob Feller won 17 games for the Indians at age 19, and 24 at age 20, 27 at age 21, and 25 at age 22 (then he went into the military during World War II). After the war, he picked up his career where it left off and like Kaline, went on to have a Hall of Fame career.

It is very unusual for players as young as Kaline and Feller to make it to the big leagues. It's even more unusual for them to immediately establish themselves there. It's rare for them to do well that young. It's simply incredible for them to excel. They are a breed unto themselves. Truly naturals.

In his own context, Kirk was that rare breed. He showed Pike and everyone else that despite his age, he had all the tools necessary to not only be a starship captain, but to be an outstanding one. If a person is ready, give that person a chance. Kirk was a natural. Why stick him off somewhere else for five or six years "to gain experience" when he already exhibits the traits of a great leader? Don't waste him. Get him into the lineup.

The example doesn't work. You're comparing a baseball player to someone directly responsible for over 200 lives. The argument that "it was Kirk, and he's super awesome and super skilled" is a pretty poor one, and while it can be used to try and justify poor writing during that scene, it really doesn't change the fact that it was poorly written and nonsensical.

 

[Mr. Crane]

Kirk's rapid promotion to first officer ... another idea for backstory

Ok ... so I've given a few ideas before that might explain Kirk's rapid promotion to first officer, but some of the ideas haven't worked well with what we saw on screen. However, I think I might have come up with an idea that might explain why Pike selected Kirk above all the other officers on the Enterprise as Spock's temporary first officer... and I think it helps clear up some of the potential logic gaps, and could explain what young Kirk was up to prior to the film.

In the bar scene, cadet Uhura is surprised that Kirk understands all about her specialized linguistic training, even though he seems to be, as she defines it, a "farmboy". How did he know this info? Perhaps Kirk actually began academy training prior to the film, but washed out of the acedemy due to insubordination, etc?

So, when we meet him in the bar, he's an academy washout, which is why he knows all about Uhura's training, something that surprises her in the bar...

Pike read about this kid with potential in the academy files, and went to Iowa to try to convince him to finish off his academy training, though he makes out to young Kirk like he just happened to be in the area and heard the bartender say his name (don't want Kirk to think the academy is too desperate to get him...), and convinces Kirk to come to the academy, as we saw in the film.

Kirk really gets his act together this time and completes his final year of academy training (2255-2256) and earns lieutenant bars, as Kirk in the Prime Universe did. His instructors are so impressed with the young man that he is recommended to a special two year program called "Command School". There Kirk did practicum training aboard starships, and was such a shining star that there was talk of him earning lieutenant commander stripes at the end of the program, pending his performance on the Kobyashi Maru test. Leonard McCoy took special training in the medical areas, already having earned his doctorate prior to entering the academy, and graduated with lietenant commander bars, as we saw in the film.

But then Kirk cheated, putting this rank in danger, and the crisis we saw in the movie happened...

Pike, recognizing Kirk's specialized command training compared to the other cadets aboard, decided to grant him the field promotion of lieutenant commander so that he could serve as Spock's first officer.

I think this would explain Pike's decision, and gererally works with the lines we saw in the movie, overall.

Opinions?

(Again, any writers out there who read my comments and like the idea are welcome to use any elements they like in stories... I 'm not planning on writing Trek!)

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Re: Kirk's rapid promotion to first officer ... another idea for backs

Not necessary. Everything we needed was in the film. Pike has his gut instincts about Kirk.

 

[Mr. B]

Re: Kirk's rapid promotion to first officer ... another idea for backs

This is an easy one. Orzi and Kurtzman wanted Kirk in command at the end by any means necessary.

 

[Borgminister]

Re: Kirk's rapid promotion to first officer ... another idea for backs

Yeah. If only Moore had written, directed and produced it, Kirk would've been a red shirt, and Star Trek would've been special!

 

[gastrof]

Re: Kirk's rapid promotion to first officer ... another idea for backs

Guys...

The OP is trying to do a "Trekkers fix-it syndrome" thing. Don't try to discourage him. He makes a convincing argument. I'd have to carefully check all the facts (including what any markings on Kirk's uniform were like) before I agreed, but I like what I hear.

Have some fun with this stuff, will ya'?

Sheesh!

 

[pookha]

Re: Kirk's rapid promotion to first officer ... another idea for backs

Guys...

The OP is trying to do a "Trekkers fix-it syndrome" thing. Don't try to discourage him. He makes a convincing argument. I'd have to carefully check all the facts (including what any markings on Kirk's uniform were like) before I agreed, but I like what I hear.

Have some fun with this stuff, will ya'?

Sheesh!

because we went over this last week

by the way as for..

that he is recommended to a special two year program called "Command School". There Kirk did practicum training aboard starships

if one follows tos kirk must have done several things as a cadet without a mention of any command school.

as i said before doing stints on starship probably are a normal part of academy training.

sigh.....
why not just look up the prior thread before starting yet another one.

 

[gastrof]

Re: Kirk's rapid promotion to first officer ... another idea for backs

Guys...

The OP is trying to do a "Trekkers fix-it syndrome" thing. Don't try to discourage him. He makes a convincing argument. I'd have to carefully check all the facts (including what any markings on Kirk's uniform were like) before I agreed, but I like what I hear.

Have some fun with this stuff, will ya'?

Sheesh!

because we went over this last week...

I don't see any response to my point.

If people want to talk let them talk. Who are you? Don't like the thread? Don't join it.

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: Kirk's rapid promotion to first officer ... another idea for backs

Guys...

The OP is trying to do a "Trekkers fix-it syndrome" thing. Don't try to discourage him. He makes a convincing argument. I'd have to carefully check all the facts (including what any markings on Kirk's uniform were like) before I agreed, but I like what I hear.

Have some fun with this stuff, will ya'?

Sheesh!

because we went over this last week...

I don't see any response to my point.

If people want to talk let them talk. Who are you? Don't like the thread? Don't join it.

You don't exactly sound as if you're encouraging talk yourself, with that sort of posturing, oh mini-mod.

The point is that this is now the third ("Trekkers fix-it syndrome" thing) thread started by the OP on what is essentially the same topic. Here are the first two -- perhaps you hadn't seen them yet?:

Cadet Kirk - first time in Starfleet? (Spoilers) (May 18 - abandoned and forgotten by the OP after the opening post)

Kirk Cadet to Captain in one easy step? - My Theories (minor spoilers) (August 1, most recent post in thread less than a week ago)

What I'm going to do, since this theory/revision thing seems to be a work in progress, is to merge the three threads into one. Further, I'll encourage Mr. Crane to continue posting his updates in the same thread, rather than starting a new thread each time a few modifications are made to the theory. In that way, it will be easier for those new to the idea (such as yourself, gastrof) to follow its progress from the start.

 

[Pauln6]

He's an inexperienced hothead so I think it's a political stunt. Kirk saved the Earth and they just lost 7 ships and Vulcan. The Federation is smarting and needs a hero. They should give him an experienced crew to nursemaid him (e.g. send diplomats rather than expecting Kirk to be the diplomat) and send him on high profile, low risk missions until he learns how to be a captain for real (i.e. the bureacracy, the diplomacy, the tact etc).

Of course in the next movie he will have 'the only ship in the quadrant' but that's how these movies work!

If they genuinely believe he is ready to be a 'real' captain then the top brass needs to retire and promote some women to the admiralty to get some common sense in there.

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: Kirk Cadet to Captain in one easy step? - My Theories (minor spoil

I can name that tune in four notes: He Saved The World

Hm... let's see... you're a cadet who boarded an aircraft carrier illegaly. Just because your father was killed by a Muslim terrorist the day you were born, and that same terrorist is about to set off a nuke in Washington, you get field promoted to First Officer. The captain is captured, and you, young cadet who doesn't even belong on that ship, take command of that aircraft carrier. And somehow you stop that bomb from exploding. Actually, all you do is sneak into the hideout and cause some chaos while the real First Officer of the carrier steals the bomb. And then all you do is ordering the destruction of that hideout.

Do you really think they let you command that thing, while ignoring the entire chain of command, just because you had a lucky shot in one specific situation? You have no experience in diplomacy, you know nothing about commanding a huge ship like that (yeah, you heard lessons, whoa), and you haven't even graduated properly, and your ass is still suposed to be on fire for that stunt you pulled in that test...



It's a nerd's wet dream. All I have to do is one heroic something and they will give me anything I want. Save a family from a burning house and become Chief of the Fire Department. Catch a thief and become police officer. Catch Osama bin Laden and become President of the United States.

Maybe they will give you the chance to direct a 150 million Star Trek movie if you film 5 minutes of extraordinary stuff and put it on youtube. You read some books about directing, it can't be so hard.

 

[startrekrcks]

Have you got a problem with Kirk's rapid promotion like really

 

[shapeshifter]

What we may need here are some examples of convenient situations which lead to 'impossible' solutions similar to this issue in TOS.

I cannot think of any offhand but I feel confident the writers saw something in an episode(s?) of TOS to validate their doing this.

There has to some 'good' reason, we only have yet to figure it out; to see 'it' as they did. This is just too hugh an issue to think they only just said "It doesn't make any sense but lets do it anyway."

Wait... Perhaps that is it. TOS does have some things that didn't really add up but they did it anyway. Perhaps this issue is just another homage to TOS.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: Kirk Cadet to Captain in one easy step? - My Theories (minor spoil

I can name that tune in four notes: He Saved The World

Hm... let's see... you're a cadet who boarded an aircraft carrier illegaly. Just because your father was killed by a Muslim terrorist the day you were born, and that same terrorist is about to set off a nuke in Washington, you get field promoted to First Officer. The captain is captured, and you, young cadet who doesn't even belong on that ship, take command of that aircraft carrier. And somehow you stop that bomb from exploding. Actually, all you do is sneak into the hideout and cause some chaos while the real First Officer of the carrier steals the bomb. And then all you do is ordering the destruction of that hideout.

Do you really think they let you command that thing, while ignoring the entire chain of command, just because you had a lucky shot in one specific situation? You have no experience in diplomacy, you know nothing about commanding a huge ship like that (yeah, you heard lessons, whoa), and you haven't even graduated properly, and your ass is still suposed to be on fire for that stunt you pulled in that test...

Thats making the assumption that Starfleet 200 years or so from now is run like the US Navy is today, also you forgot that most the other captains and their ships were all some where far far away, the other ships with the Enterprise were destroyed, and a major planet in the Federation imploded, also Spock kind of had emotional issues after Vulcan went by by.

 

[Red Ranger]

Well, we now have two different continuities to deal with. Maybe 20 years from now, when there's another reboot, they can do it in a more realistic way. If they had simply ignored the previous continuity -- no Spock-Prime -- it might have been easier to swallow the new "Kirk as maverick" promotion scheme.

It wouldn't have taken much to insert a little time between scenes to show that Kirk was indeed a maverick but rises through the ranks quickly in a more realistic way. A simple caption that reads, "10 years later," from Kirk's academy days to him becoming Pike's first officer, would have been a much better way to show his advancement.

If I rebooted it, I would've made Kirk and Spock academy classmates who become rivals when Spock's Kobayashi Maru scenario, a project that's his Academy thesis, is "ruined" by his fellow classmate Kirk's sabotage.

A few additional lines of dialogue between Pike and Spock would reveal that Spock, being half-human, aspired to be first officer and feels passed over by Pike. Pike then could say that he doesn't feel Spock is ready to be first officer, adding professional jealousy to the tension between Kirk and Spock.

Maybe next reboot!

Red Ranger

 

[pookha]

He's an inexperienced hothead so I think it's a political stunt. Kirk saved the Earth and they just lost 7 ships and Vulcan. The Federation is smarting and needs a hero. They should give him an experienced crew to nursemaid him (e.g. send diplomats rather than expecting Kirk to be the diplomat) and send him on high profile, low risk missions until he learns how to be a captain for real (i.e. the bureacracy, the diplomacy, the tact etc).

Of course in the next movie he will have 'the only ship in the quadrant' but that's how these movies work!

If they genuinely believe he is ready to be a 'real' captain then the top brass needs to retire and promote some women to the admiralty to get some common sense in there.

the only ship in the quadrant pretty much was tos..


and they had a woman admiral.