TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

[Ln X]

Not sure why this episode scored so highly. The interactions between Ghemor and Kira felt clunky at best, I did like the flashbacks into Kira's past and the whole backstory about the death of her father. But plotwise this episode was all over the place. The problem is the interactions between Ghemor and Kira, they seem to really know each other when they have only met face to face almost three years ago for a short period of time. They just seem to be too familiar and it doesn't gel with me, and it smacks of laziness on the writers part not explaining this away.

Some of the dialogue and interactions feels forced, and if anything Dukat and co save this episode from becoming average or worse. The interactions between Kira and Dukat were great (some real fire and passion there), Dukat and Ghemor were great together, Kira and Bashir in that final scene really worked (it is one of those rare occasions where you see Kira cry about something) but for some reason Kira and Ghemor together did not. I just feel this episode assumed and extrapolated too much regarding those two.

But at least Kira is out of that smock-like uniform...

And great to see Weyoun back, the drink scene had to be the highlight of the whole episode.

 

[datalogan]

I agree that the relationship between Ghemor and Kira in "Ties of Blood and Water" is stronger relationship than seen at the end of "Second Skin", but it has been a while. Maybe they stayed in touch and developed the relationship more since last time we saw them together. "Off-screen" solution to inconsistency.

I find the Cardassian politics interesting. Ghemor was a big part of the Cardassian dissident movement. So when the dissident movement took over Cardassia in the form of the Detapa Council in early season 4, certainly Ghemor was a high-level person in the government. The same government Dukat sided with in "Way of the Warrior". And the same government Dukat overthrew in "By Inferno's Light". You can see how these men have an interesting history. And I do love seeing Dukat (and Weyoun!!) on screen.

Plus we see the old Cardassian custom of revealing all your secrets about your enemies to your family when you near death (Shri-tal). Last seen when Tain talked to his son Garak right before dying in "In Purgatory's Shadow".

While I do feel that the parellels between Ghemor's death and Kira's father were a bit forced, I did like seeing the flash-backs into Kira's life. And it was nice to see Furel again, even though he died in "The Darkness and the Light".

By the way, according to the book "Fearful Symmetry", Dukat did know where Ghemor's daughter was at this time. But he never would have revealed her to Ghemor because he had been treating her so badly.

 

[Thor Damar]

^ To say the least.

The Shri-tal is a brilliant invention since it is such a natural custom for such a paranoid and family orientated race, it allows one to undermine your enemies without suffering the consequences by dint of being dead and could also be used to pass on intelligence to others (as Legate Ghemor adroitly did during this episode). Of course I'm sure that many Cardassians just used the Shri-tal to pass on harmless thoughts and feelings to their families and to express their love to them because...

Yeah, like that would ever happen.

There is a lot to love about this episode, from Dukat and his Gold Band of Absolute Power! to Weyoun Five and his charming manner and ability to down a drink in mere seconds (what a diplomat eh?) but the heart of it is the relationship between the former Legate of the Central Command and the ex-resistance fighter from Bajor, the acting really brought it home.

 

[R. Star]

You kind of saw a version of the Shri-tal between Tain and Garak, though Tain was just basically giving Garak a hit list on his death bed.

As for Fearful Symmetry.... that one took me by surprise as the most twisted and.... well evil... demonstration of Dukat's behavior...

My biggest regret of this episode is that this is all we saw of Ghemor. It would have been nice to have seen him as the voice of the civillian government in season 4 and 5. He was such a wonderful and likable character.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

He was indeed. And that was what made Ghemor's loss so painful.

BTW, I think you now see where I get my name from...

 

[Thor Damar]

Mind you if the GOL (Grand Old Legate) had been in change of the reformed Cardassian Union then the dynamics of the next few years would have been very different indeed.

 

[R. Star]

Mind you if the GOL (Grand Old Legate) had been in change of the reformed Cardassian Union then the dynamics of the next few years would have been very different indeed.

Not really, it was firmly established that Ghemor's movement was working to overthrow the Central Command and the military government in Season 2.

In Season 4, that overthrow firmly happened. Dukat threw in with the civillian government and flat out told Sisko he just switched sides because he was picking the winner and where he'd have the most power. Ghemor was in exile before this and it stands to reason he returned to Cardassia and served at least in some capacity in the new civillian regime. It's quite possible he could have even been on the Defiant/DS9 during the Klingon attack being they rescued the Detapa Council.

In late season 5, Dukat and the Dominion overthrow the civillian government and Ghemor was later shown to be in exile again(probably self imposed as he would have been against the Dominion without a doubt) and later showed up on DS9 in the aforementioned episode.

So that's a good year and a half he could have been in the thick of things with at least one solid oppurtunity for a guest appearance in Way of the Warrior. It's just a shame it never happened.

 

[flemm]

The problem is the interactions between Ghemor and Kira, they seem to really know each other when they have only met face to face almost three years ago for a short period of time. They just seem to be too familiar and it doesn't gel with me, and it smacks of laziness on the writers part not explaining this away.

I've read similar comments on this episode from time to time. It never really struck me that way, but I guess you do have to accept the bond between Kira and Ghemor for this story to work. It's always worked for me because I felt it was strong enough in Second Skin to be believable here as well, or for this to be believable as an extension of that.

My one problem with it is that Kira explains her emotional journey at the end of the episode, which felt unnecessary, but Nana Visitor gave it her all and just about manages to sell the scene regardless.

To me the issue in that scene is more Bashir's side of the dialogue, rather than Kira's. At least that's how it struck me in the past. There are lines where Bashir spells things out unnecessarily. But... not enough of a problem to really matter imo.

Love the final scene on Bajor especially.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I've read similar comments on this episode from time to time. It never really struck me that way, but I guess you do have to accept the bond between Kira and Ghemor for this story to work. It's always worked for me because I felt it was strong enough in Second Skin to be believable here as well, or for this to be believable as an extension of that.

It seemed to me like they had to have corresponded in SOME way that we never saw--but, I also thought that they bonded very strongly as a result of their shared experience in "Second Skin." I also always imagined a lot happened off-camera during the ride back to DS9 from Cardassia, and back on the station before Tekeny went into exile with the Mathenites.

 

[TheGodBen]

Ferengi Love Songs (*)

This is yet another episode that I put off watching for far too long, but I finally worked up the courage. It's bad, it's stupid, it's annoying, and it's not funny. The episode contains a lot of the worst of DS9 while containing very little of its best, I dread to think that somewhere in the world somebody is tuning into DS9 for the first time and this episode will completely shape their opinion of the show.

Ishka is never going to show up on a list of DS9's best characters, but it's still disappointing how her portrayal has devolved between Family Business and this episode. She used to be a determined Ferengi feminist, willing to stand up against the oppression in her society and within her own family, but at the same time she still loved her family and was willing to make a sacrifice for them. She was about as good as you could expect from a female Ferengi character. which isn't saying that much, but it's something. Hardly any of that is present in this episode, here she is portrayed like a teenage girl falling for her first crush. She's whiny, over-emotional, annoyingly smitten, and just a little clueless. I don't blame the new actress for this change, that's just the way the character was written this time around.

So, why the one star? Partly because my expectations were so low going into the episode that it managed to rise slightly above them, and it's partly because of Brunt and the always watchable Jeffrey Combs. Just like Ishka, Brunt isn't a great character, but he's probably the best Ferengi villain we can ever hope to see. He can be annoying, just like all the other Ferengi characters, but he's a pretty good foil for Quark.

 

[flemm]

For whatever reason, I rewatched this episode not too long ago. I think I was just going through that part of the season or something.

I knew it was bad, but man, it was even worse than I remembered. Just painful. As good as DS9 can be, occasionally it is just putrid.

 

[apenpaap]

I actually found Ferengi Love Songs not that bad. It's definitely weak, but that's all. I wouldn't call it bad, and it definitely wasn't painful for me to watch; just boring. There are only 4 DS9 episodes I would call bad, namely Meridian, The Muse, Let He Who is Without Sin... and The Emperor's New Cloak; and of those two actually have enjoyable B-plots. The A-plots of these two, and the other two episodes entirely are just painful to watch. I'd probably give Ferengi Love Songs two stars, or maybe 1.5, myself.

 

[InklingStar]

I actually found Ferengi Love Songs not that bad. It's definitely weak, but that's all. I wouldn't call it bad, and it definitely wasn't painful for me to watch; just boring. There are only 4 DS9 episodes I would call bad, namely Meridian, The Muse, Let He Who is Without Sin... and The Emperor's New Cloak; and of those two actually have enjoyable B-plots. The A-plots of these two, and the other two episodes entirely are just painful to watch. I'd probably give Ferengi Love Songs two stars, or maybe 1.5, myself.

Have you blotted out "Profit and Lace" from your memory? If so, I envy you.

 

[apenpaap]

No, I just didn't see what the fuss was about. Sure, it's a crappy episode, but it's hardly as awful as people make it out to be. At least, that's my opinion.

 

[TheGodBen]

Soldiers of the Empire (***½)

So, I watched this episode over a week ago, then I got a mild flu and didn't spend much time on the computer, so it's not as fresh in my memory as these episodes normally are when writing these things up. I mostly enjoyed it, it's a pretty good Klingon episode that explores their command structure without Federation officers judging them by their own values. We get to see some pretty distinct Klingon characters, and Martok's character is fleshed out a little more. There's not much plot to drive things along, but it's okay.

Too much Klingon material can get annoying, they're a popular race but they sure can get repetitive. This episode mostly avoids that, but you still can't get away from it completely, Klingons are generally very simplistic and like fighting things for the sake of fighting. You need a good actor to flesh them out and give them nuance, which is why the character of Martok works so well, but you just can't expect that sort of thing from every Klingon character. I wonder sometimes about the actors that are cast as Klingons and what that process is like, especially if they're not familiar with Star Trek. Do they ever feel goofy playing such simple-minded characters, as so many Klingons are? Perhaps they see it as a fun change from the regular small-time roles they play?

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I wonder sometimes about the actors that are cast as Klingons and what that process is like, especially if they're not familiar with Star Trek. Do they ever feel goofy playing such simple-minded characters, as so many Klingons are? Perhaps they see it as a fun change from the regular small-time roles they play?

I think there's a part of us all that wants to spend a day bellowing "you have insulted my honour. I WILL KILL YOU WHERE YOU STAND!" rather than having to engage in rational conversation and social niceties. So I've wondered if Klingons, makeup aside, are just really fun to play. Which might mean, for the supporting actors who don't have fully fleshed out characters, that you don't bother too much with nuance and subtle hints of personality. You're just a snarling, blustering barbarian warrior.

 

[TheGodBen]

Children of Time (***½)

Based off of an old Enterprise episode, E², this episode takes that one's brilliant, satisfying, and completely original story and turns it into an abortion allegory. Everyone is tired, but Jadzia wants to have some fun and pressures the guys into doing something risky. She miscalculates, and bang: 8,000 unwanted children. Will the crew abort all those children so that they can continue their normal lives and careers, or will they sacrifice their present happiness and live a bitter, disappointing life on a deserted planet in order to preserve life? In the end the answer is simple: a man made out of magical gelatin tricks the crew into having an abortion against their will, and they soon forget about the entire event. Legislators, take note; this is the solution to this complex moral question.

So, in 6 or 7 generations, 48 people become 8,000. That's pretty impressive population growth. And you have to factor in that only a third of the crew at most are women, and one of them dies, so that only leaves around 15 women to 33 men. And that's not considering that a substantial number of those people are aliens that are sexually incompatible with one another without advanced genetic techniques probably not available to the survivors of the crash. I'm presuming that's why Jadzia and Worf don't have any descendants together but had children outside of their marriage with compatible partners. In fact, necessity probably drove a whole lot of wife-swapping on that planet, I can see why so much of the crew were willing to go through with the crash.

In all seriousness, this is a good episode with a great sci-fi story, great character material, no easy technobabble solutions, and a shocking ending. So why only give it 7/10? It just a bit messy in the execution. One big problem is the way that Oldo is presented to us, he doesn't interact with anyone other than Kira. We never see him with the other colonists that he has been living with for 200 years, so his decision to betray them doesn't have the impact it should. For all we know, Oldo and the colonists don't get along, maybe sacrificing them means little to him. It would have meant more if we had some acknowledgement that Oldo was sacrificing his friends to save Kira, but I suppose doing so would have made things even more unpalatable. Also, and this may seem like a minor quibble, but I don't like the music in this episode. Music is a very personal thing and I'm sure the music worked for most people watching this episode, but for some reason it just doesn't work for me and kept distracting me. So that's an entirely subjective thing that I personally have to rate the episode down for, your mileage probably varies.

Form of... Oldo: 31

 

[Distorted Humor]

So, in 6 or 7 generations, 48 people become 8,000. That's pretty impressive population growth. And you have to factor in that only a third of the crew at most are women, and one of them dies, so that only leaves around 15 women to 33 men.

Exponential growth. and decent lifespan can do it.

Lets say you have 3 generations alive at one time. And assuming there is no cloning or use of artificial wombs or what not.

Avg 4 children per woman
Gen 1 - 48 (15 woman)
gen 2 - 60 (30 woman)
Gen 3- 120 (60 woman)
Gen 4 - 240 (120 woman)
Gen 5 - 480 (240 woman)
Gen 6 - 960 )480 woman)
Gen 7 - 1920 (960 woman)
Gen 8 - 3840 (1920 woman)
Gen 9 - 7680 (3840 woman)

If generation 8 is born, then you only need 1280 of generation 9 or older generations still alive to get to 8,000, and if you have a general goal of baby production, with plenty of land to support food production, 4 is a low number per woman. (I used it since it doubles the population each generation.

 

[Worf'sParmach]

And that's not considering that a substantial number of those people are aliens that are sexually incompatible with one another without advanced genetic techniques probably not available to the survivors of the crash. I'm presuming that's why Jadzia and Worf don't have any descendants together but had children outside of their marriage with compatible partners.

I first saw this episode when it aired and I remember thinking that Worf and Jadzia's descendants should be the same if they got married, like Yedrin should have had forehead ridges and spots, you know? It wasn't until over a year later did viewers learn than Jadzia and Worf are biologically imcompatible.

 

[R. Star]

I always wanted to know... did Jadzia and Worf split up in this timeline? There are Trill with spots and symbionts... no Klingon head ridges. There are Klingonesque people... no Trill spots. Neither Dax or Worf(him especially) seemed bothered by their very obvious breakup. For that matter Kira or Odo didn't seemed to be bothered by Kira apparently hooking up with some random Defiant crew member being there were Bajorians running around too.