The Worst Decision by a Starfleet Cpt/Cdr.
- Thread starter Azure-Dynamo
- Start date
Murder? Where's the body. No evidence, no guilt.
Tuvix can't reappear in a new transporter accident? Where's the murder then? There he stands, living, breathing.
Oh that's right - it's only an accusation, no need to substantiate it. Maybe Janeway's an anti-Vulaxian racist too! And getting revenge for all that forced small talk with her morning coffee! Maybe she really wanted Neelix's prized saute pan!
Selfish decision? She spared her crew the responsibility of the decision. She took the bullet for all of them. Nice, demean her sacrifice by calling it petty selfishness. Yeah, Starfleet captains are always putting their petty desires before the lives of their crews. Yeah, that's what Star Trek's all about, not some random fan tangent at all....
Tuvix was a double murderer. He wanted T & N dead. Well he got what he did to others first. And why? Because he selfishly put his own needs ahead of the two men he wanted dead, and the needs of the crew. F*** him. He subscribed to his own fate first.
Produce the body or lose your case, it is that simple. The court of popular approval is irrelevant in a command structure. Tuvok took an oath and his ass belonged to Starfleet. And Neelix knew the costs and was free to leave at any time, and opted to join the crew. Tuvix was never released from those prior obligations. In fact, he counted on their sacrifices - right up until the time it bit him in his own aft. And he did not react with dignity.
Tuvix can't reappear in a new transporter accident? Where's the murder then? There he stands, living, breathing.
Oh that's right - it's only an accusation, no need to substantiate it. Maybe Janeway's an anti-Vulaxian racist too! And getting revenge for all that forced small talk with her morning coffee! Maybe she really wanted Neelix's prized saute pan!
Selfish decision? She spared her crew the responsibility of the decision. She took the bullet for all of them. Nice, demean her sacrifice by calling it petty selfishness. Yeah, Starfleet captains are always putting their petty desires before the lives of their crews. Yeah, that's what Star Trek's all about, not some random fan tangent at all....
Tuvix was a double murderer. He wanted T & N dead. Well he got what he did to others first. And why? Because he selfishly put his own needs ahead of the two men he wanted dead, and the needs of the crew. F*** him. He subscribed to his own fate first.
Produce the body or lose your case, it is that simple. The court of popular approval is irrelevant in a command structure. Tuvok took an oath and his ass belonged to Starfleet. And Neelix knew the costs and was free to leave at any time, and opted to join the crew. Tuvix was never released from those prior obligations. In fact, he counted on their sacrifices - right up until the time it bit him in his own aft. And he did not react with dignity.
Gibberish. Firstly, your argument that society cares more about adults than children is dumb. It simply isn't true. Secondly, your example to demonstrate this (we murder children to save mothers) is fucking cretinous. Name a single time when a nine-month old foetus has been deliberately murdered to save the mother.
Because I'M not the one trying to argue that we live in a world where adults are valued more than children, YOU are.
Because of all the dead mothers blocking your reach?
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That's a good point. Though it also proves that saving her friend wasn't the only factor that influenced her decision (thus proving your second comment wrong).
Damn. I guess this means that no one gets charged for murder in Star Trek as most weapons disintegrate people...
Janeway's worst decision was not to roll the dice: Harrkotayparis was bound to have more personality than his predecessors.
Our judges and elected officials? You assume I am from America or Western Europe. Well, I am. Still, children may be our future workforce, but take this example, @T'Girl.
You are a mother or father. You make money to support your family. But, you do not have enough money to support both yourself and your child. If you have the child use the funds, you may die, and the child will die once those funds run out, as he or she cannot make enough money. If the child dies, you stay alive and work to live.
Either you both die, or the child alone dies. Which would you choose?
@PhaserLightShow
No, that's murder with trace evidence.
In Tuvix's weird case, the victim in question has merely returned to his original state, from which he came once, and could come again. This is not dead. This is at best, suspension.
Are you arguing that transporting someone is equal to phasing someone to vapor? It's HYPE, nothing more. Shocking, extreme language in a gray situation.
Tuvix is not dead any more than he killed T & N, who also came back.
You could replicate the body.
When did Tuvix exactly do anything to Tuvok and Neelix. He was the result of a transporter malfunction. And by any reasoanble definition was a living sentient being and thus had all the rights granted to them by Federation Law.
Tuvok certainly knew the risks that the transporter could malfuction resulting in his death, one would hope that Neelix had been told about those risks as well.
It's also not heard of in nature for canimals to die shortly after giving birth.
But lets say the incident had occured in the AQ,and Tuvix had appealed all the way up to a the highest court would they agree with Janeway's decision?
Tuvix isn't beholden to any prior commitments by either Neelix or Tuvok as he was a unique being with his own identity.
And let's be honest this wasn't the only case that Janeway put her friends needs before the law, i.e. "Endgame."
Most of Trek's most famous quandaries are all over-thought, convoluted derivatives of the trolley car dilemma. The problem is, none of them are written very well.
"Tuvix," is a good example. In this case, the person on the side track and the person at the switch were one in the same. And Tuvix was absolutely right. In no free society should a person ever be forced to sacrifice his life to save others. Call it selfish, weak, whatever, but the minute someone forced death upon him (especially if that someone is a member of the armed force) the free society is dead.
But, like true Star Trek miss-the-mark fashion, the issue gets weighed down in silly magical what-ifs that only obfuscate. So the initial issue is lost.
Same goes for "Dear Doctor." If Phlox's option was ultimately to forsake one species to save another, then he took the most ethical and fair option by taking himself out of the equation.
Insurrection is another one. It plays strictly to the numbers game and completely ignores the ramifications of the unique culture they'd be destroying. Why? Because the Ba'Ku were affluent white-bread yuppies from Santa Monica hanging out at the Renaissance fair. There was nothing about them that showed they were a uniquely evolved species with their own culture other than they were really good at hacky sack.
This is why I hate it when Star Trek tries to wax philosophical. It's so fucking bad at it.
"Tuvix," is a good example. In this case, the person on the side track and the person at the switch were one in the same. And Tuvix was absolutely right. In no free society should a person ever be forced to sacrifice his life to save others. Call it selfish, weak, whatever, but the minute someone forced death upon him (especially if that someone is a member of the armed force) the free society is dead.
But, like true Star Trek miss-the-mark fashion, the issue gets weighed down in silly magical what-ifs that only obfuscate. So the initial issue is lost.
Same goes for "Dear Doctor." If Phlox's option was ultimately to forsake one species to save another, then he took the most ethical and fair option by taking himself out of the equation.
Insurrection is another one. It plays strictly to the numbers game and completely ignores the ramifications of the unique culture they'd be destroying. Why? Because the Ba'Ku were affluent white-bread yuppies from Santa Monica hanging out at the Renaissance fair. There was nothing about them that showed they were a uniquely evolved species with their own culture other than they were really good at hacky sack.
This is why I hate it when Star Trek tries to wax philosophical. It's so fucking bad at it.
Tuvix wasn't an individual. He was just perceived that way. He was a high-functioning Fly.
@MacLeod (therecanbeonlyone), that's precisely my point. Tuvix didn't murder T & N. And they didn't murder him. Janeway wasn't a murderer, she was a transporter operator.
Janeway didn't do it out of petty selfishness, but it seems people like to accuse her of that. Why, because she's female? She took the moral bullet to spare her crew.
Endgame, she admitted her motivations. Tuvix, she saw a bird with a broken wing and she broke its neck out of mercy. Hard, captainy stuff.
If it happened in the AQ, it's SF Command's problem. Janes would have no opportunity to choose.
So I want to know why Tuvix advocates have no problem with the instant, unnecessarily permanent dissolution of Tuvok and Neelix's rights. I mean, if individual rights matter, besides just bucking the trend for its own sake.
@MacLeod (therecanbeonlyone), that's precisely my point. Tuvix didn't murder T & N. And they didn't murder him. Janeway wasn't a murderer, she was a transporter operator.
Janeway didn't do it out of petty selfishness, but it seems people like to accuse her of that. Why, because she's female? She took the moral bullet to spare her crew.
Endgame, she admitted her motivations. Tuvix, she saw a bird with a broken wing and she broke its neck out of mercy. Hard, captainy stuff.
If it happened in the AQ, it's SF Command's problem. Janes would have no opportunity to choose.
So I want to know why Tuvix advocates have no problem with the instant, unnecessarily permanent dissolution of Tuvok and Neelix's rights. I mean, if individual rights matter, besides just bucking the trend for its own sake.
You mix blue paint with yellow paint, and you get green paint. The blue and the yellow are gone.
... Or a gelatinous cube,sucking up unsuspecting unnamed Maquis in the corridors.
Except for the fact that the blue and yellow paint were there at the end of the episode chatting to one another. Put some meat between some bread and you've got a sandwich. That doesn't change the fact that you've still got some meat and bread though.
Tuvix was not a sapient being. He was two sapient beings trying to make sense of the world through one confused voice which produced the illusion of a third sapient mind.
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Nonsense.
