The Worst Decision by a Starfleet Cpt/Cdr.

[Tomalak]

He was clearly his own person, begging her not to kill him. Regardless of how he was formed or what the cost was, he was blameless. Just because Janeway had the ability to bring back Tuvok and Neelix doesn't mean she had the right. It could only be Tuvix's decision to sacrifice himself. He didn't want that. She should have respected his right as an individual. He was intelligent, self-aware and had a conscience. That meets Picard's definition of sentience.

 

[hux]

Nonsense.

Durrrrr nope.

He was clearly his own person, begging her not to kill him.

See Stockholm syndrome. People behave strangely when put in psychologically stressful situations. Tuvix wanting to live was an expression of survival logic (Tuvok) and the natural emotion that leads to a fear of death (Neelix) being funnelled through a single vessel of those two minds.

She should have respected his right as an individual. He was intelligent, self-aware and had a conscience. That meets Picard's definition of sentience.

Picard was a damp patronising fart in a vacuum. His definition means nothing.

 

[Tomalak]

Flawed analogy.

To make it accurate, the organs that were saving people's lives would originally have come from those people in the first place and they would have been taken without permission and needed for continued existence... In which case yeah, ethical to take them back.

But in this situation, it's like being told there are two people close to death, and the only way to save them is for you to voluntarily give up your heart and lungs. You'll definitely die, but they might live. There was no certainty they could successfully split Tuvix and reanimate Tuvok and Neelix.

You would have the right to volunteer your organs, but no one would have the right to compel you to do so. Tuvix specifically declined that procedure.

 

[MacLeod]

If we are going to bring "Measure of a Man" into it.

The ruling

It sits there looking at me, and I don't know what it is. This case has dealt with metaphysics, with questions best left to saints and philosophers. I'm neither competent nor qualified to answer those. I've got to make a ruling, to try to speak to the future. Is Data a machine? Yes. Is he the property of Starfleet? No. We have all been dancing around the basic issue. Does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have. But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself. It is the ruling of this court that Lieutenant Commander Data has the freedom to choose

Or to edit it

Does Tuvix have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have. But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself. It is the ruling of this court that Tuvix has the freedom to choose

If you boil "Measure of a Man" down to the basic core story it was is Data a sentient life form and entitled to all the rights granted to sentient life by the Federation or not. So was Tuvix a sentient life form or not. How he was created isn't relevant just as it wasn't in Data's case (his being an artifical construct)

 

[CorporalClegg]

Tuvix was self-aware. He self identified.
He was obviously intelligent. He could communicate and reason with cognitive judgement.
He was creative, and infarct displayed creative traits and abilities beyond those of either Neelix or Tuvok.

There really isn't much more to sentience than that. And what does it matter if he was sentient or not? He was still a higher lifeform. To suggest otherwise would be to say the sum is less than that of either part.

To say two higher lifeforms combine to make a single lower lifeform that, thanks to the powers of sci-fi magic, can be reconstituted back into the two higher lifeforms is fucking ridiculous. Never mind the physics of it.

 

[hux]

Does Tuvix have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have. But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself. It is the ruling of this court that Tuvix has the freedom to choose

I have some sympathy for that argument. Janeway could have let Tuvix explore whether he had a soul or not. As far as I'm concerned, it would allow the two genuine minds present to reassert themselves and communicate their desires more effectively. And as such, it would inevitably have lead to Tuvix asking to be separated.

How he was created isn't relevant just as it wasn't in Data's case (his being an artifical construct)

I have less sympathy for this. His creation stole self determination from two others. That has to be part of the conversation.

 

[Tomalak]

I have less sympathy for this. His creation stole self determination from two others. That has to be part of the conversation.

But that's not his fault, he doesn't deserve to be punished for it. They were gone, he was alive and aware of everything around him. He understood the issues, but he chose to live. Frankly, I doubt Tuvok would have been happy about Janeway unilaterally ending a life to bring his back.

 

[MacLeod]

But Tuvix had no say in his creation, he can't be held responsible for how he was created. There was no overt act in his creation by anyone to whom blame could be attributed.

But the question before the court would be does Tuvix have a right to live, how he was created doesn't change that fundamental question.

 

[hux]

I'm not blaming him for the way he was created, I just think it needs to be present in the minds of those who are making the decision. In fact, the dilemmna specifically exists because there are other parties involved.

The question before the court isn't "should Tuvix have a right to live" because that decision has already been made. The question before the court is "should Janeway be punished for that decision and if so, what exactly is her crime?"

 

[Triskelion]

Janeway's priority: get her crew home. If you interfere with that mission, you're out.

And interfere is precisely what that high-functioning fusion mutant did.

How?

It is very simple.

Had Jane NOT done everything in her power - pursued every option available to her - to rescue lost crew; but chose instead to shrug them off to preserve a selfish sense of moral haughtiness - then the molecular bonds uniting her very crew would have dissolved. Probably first along the fault lines between the Maquis and the Starfleet.

Why? Because every person on that ship would realize that it was OK to abandon and be abandoned. Now we're weighing odds, numbers, values, personalities, and popularity, before deciding if rescue is worth it. Now we're cloaking ourselves in moral excuses, but really looking out for number one - and taking no responsibility for the welfare of your crewmates. Now the crew would realize that rescue was never a given - it was a privilege dependent on the captain's evasion of responsibilty in an empty evocation of "rights", (which she can also apparently discard at will).


Now you realize the crew will NOT pursue every avenue to bring you back, but will put their own value spin on your life. Loyalty loses all meaning. Janeway would have lost to Seska, and they would have all perished in a fray of combative avarice as the last, far-flung casualties of the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor.


T & N's rights had a pre-existing claim on the body mass. Janeway would have saved Tuvix and destroyed the ship. But at least she could point her finger at someone else at that moment before destruction. Ego preserved.

No, I consider much of this defense of Tuvix unearned second-guessing for the sake of sensation and knee jerk rejection of authority. But we don't have to think of the longterm mission, or the longterm consequences; we can just sit in judgment and never have to live or die on our high moral pegasus horses.

This ep is worth watching if for nothing else, than the brilliant performance of Tom Wright in the role. He really sold the character!

 

[Terok Nor]

Kirk : Boarding the Enterprise-B on its maiden voyage or leaving the Nexus
Picard : Letting the Outrageous Okona board the ship at the exact same time Data used Joe Piscopo as his inspiration for understanding humour
Sisko : Buying into the Prophets crap
Janeway : Allowing Neelix to join the crew
Archer : Joining Starfleet

 

[Longinus]

Archer : Joining Starfleet

 

[Vandervecken]

Gibberish. Firstly, your argument that society cares more about adults than children is dumb. It simply isn't true. Secondly, your example to demonstrate this (we murder children to save mothers) is fucking cretinous. Name a single time when a nine-month old foetus has been deliberately murdered to save the mother.



Because I'M not the one trying to argue that we live in a world where adults are valued more than children, YOU are.



Because of all the dead mothers blocking your reach?

Firstly, calling something cretinous and gibberish and basically frothing at the mouth with your sad ideas of sentence construction isn't an argument, cupcake, it's you verbally jacking off. Was it good for you?

Secondly: You're kidding right? I actually have to prove to you that late-term abortions are performed to save the life of the mother? So we've all had a collective hallucination that these things exist? Hello, this is sanity calling.

Hey I didn't say you were the one trying to argue that we live in a world where adults are valued more than children. Where did you get that? I do know my position. You can have yours, ie your fantasy that the world we have created isn't primarily for adults. Give my regards to Ricardo Montalban and make sure you tip Tattoo.

Tuvix wasn't an individual. He was just perceived that way. He was a high-functioning Fly.

So much this.

Tuvok and Neelix consented to use of the transporter, knowing full well there was a chance there could be a malfunction which could result in the termination of their existance. Well there was a malfuction which result in the termination of their existance.

Evidently not, as they were recovered.

... Or a gelatinous cube,sucking up unsuspecting unnamed Maquis in the corridors.

Lol...readying disintegrate spell.

Actually way back in college I created a track teleporter spell, and a teledistortion spell. The second was for, you guessed it, messing up someone's teleport so something just like this would happen to them.

 

[T'Girl]

He was clearly his own person

Hardly, Tuvix is a amalgamation of two fully formed individuals. He (it) obviously manifests only the traits of Tuvok and Neelix, nothing he does is separate from one or a combination of both of them.

Just because Janeway had the ability to bring back Tuvok and Neelix doesn't mean she had the right

Once a method to separate Tuvok and Neelix from each other is devised, does Janeway have the right to not use it?

†

 

[Tomalak]

Hardly, Tuvix is a amalgamation of two fully formed individuals. He (it) obviously manifests only the traits of Tuvok and Neelix, nothing he does is separate from one or a combination of both of them.Once a method to separate Tuvok and Neelix from each other is devised, does Janeway have the right to not use it?

†

Only with the consent of Tuvix. It was terrible that Tuvok and Neelix were lost as individuals, but they were lost, and a new person was created. If he was just a blob of matter it would have been easier, but are you saying he had no rights? He certainly seemed self-aware, and as the amalgam of both Tuvok and Neelix, felt he had the right to life. I appreciate Janeway's dilemma, but ultimately I don't think it was her decision to make.

 

[T'Girl]

but are you saying he had no rights

Are you saying that Tuvok and Neelix had no rights? In that situation neither of them was capable of expressing their positions, they had no voice, they couldn't defend themselves.

So they have no rights? They were completely dependent on others (Janeway) to ensure their return to their original forms.

Do I feel that their rights to exist over-ride Tuvok's existence ... yes!

†

 

[Tomalak]

Are you saying that Tuvok and Neelix had no rights? In that situation neither of them was capable of expressing their positions, they had no voice, they couldn't defend themselves.

So they have no rights? They were completely dependent on others (Janeway) to ensure their return to their original forms.

Do I feel that their rights to exist over-ride Tuvok's existence ... yes!

†

But they were effectively dead. They no longer existed. Do I think the rights of the living override the rights of the dead? Yes.

I do appreciate the dilemma, especially as Janeway had to continually make these morally ambiguous margin calls with no support. But ultimately no living person should be forced to sacrifice themselves to save anyone else. Ever. Everyone has a right to life, but that right only extends to the living. Tuvix didn't want to cease to exist, and I think that should have been respected.

 

[T'Girl]

But they were effectively dead

Years ago I was a volunteer at a local hospital, and I asked a doctor what death was. He said "death is that state from which you do not return."

T and N were alive. YMMV.

†

 

[Tomalak]

Years ago I was a volunteer at a local hospital, and I asked a doctor what death was. He said "death is that state from which you do not return."

T and N were alive. YMMV.

†

But not without ending another life. I don't we'll ever agree on this! Fortunately it's not a decision quite like anyone has to make in the real world.

 

[Triskelion]

Hardly, Tuvix is a amalgamation of two fully formed individuals. He (it) obviously manifests only the traits of Tuvok and Neelix, nothing he does is separate from one or a combination of both of them.Once a method to separate Tuvok and Neelix from each other is devised, does Janeway have the right to not use it?

†

To be fair, Tuvix did exhibit one charactetistic that was very absent in both Neelix and Tuvok:

Cowardice.

I submit it was this unredeeming trait that ultimately failed to persuade - and sealed his own damned fate. He was lesser than each of them, and yes, that is a value judgment - a choice which the captain was NOT relieved from. No choice was also a choice.

I really enjoy how we are supposed to consider Tuvix's rights, while in turn, his advocates conveniently overlook the rights of T & N to be availed of the doctor's procedure. I especially enjoy how simplistically this argument is made, and how such conscientiousness doesn't even give a second thought to any possibility of any other interpretation or further inquiry. Their rights are just a footnote. No loss.

Fact: T & N still existed.
Fallacy: Argument from Authority: that Tuvix was an individual.

Well speaking with the conviction of authority does not release someone from his own possibility of being wrong. But everybody else is supposed to walk on eggshells for his approval, though he need never acknowledge his own possibility of being wrong. Nor reciprocate any rational self-doubt in himself he requires of others.

Gotta love those one-way streets. I really think this more about personal power than it is about other people's rights. Sorry, occasional rights, when the purpose serves.

Fact: Tuvix failed to save his own ass. Darwin award.