The Worst Decision by a Starfleet Cpt/Cdr.

[T'Girl]

So it is okay to murder one person to save two? I'm sure several people could be saved by harvesting your organs.

As you stipulated, they are my organs.

In all the years following being returned to their original forms, Tuvok and Neelix never sought to recombine into Tuvix, perhaps they too are murderers?

The argument that Tuvix was not a genuine individual due to the way he was created, and they never really stopped being two people carries a little more weight,

It's interesting that when they were returned to their original bodies, Tuvok and Neelix showed no surprise at being in sick bay, as oppose to being on the transporter pad. There was no "what are we doing here?" To me this suggests that they were conscious (in some way) during the course of he episode and remember events.

@ PhaserLightShow

I fail to see the meaning of this post.

†

 

[MacLeod]

But Tuvok and Neelix both had years of life behind them and Tuvix was, in effect, newborn. Doesn't make infanticide right, but we do tend to value adult life more. .

Do we really value adult life more than a child's life? Don't we tend to think those that abuse/injury/harm/kill children are the lowest form of criminal scum?

 

[stardream]

Tuvok and Neelix never sought to recombine into Tuvix, perhaps they too are murderers?

An interesting question. Another one is...did they hold a memorial service for Tuvix? Supposing they did...did Neelix and Tuvok attend?

 

[hux]

Did they hold a memorial service for baby Naomi? In that instance, they actually had a body.

 

[Scotchy]

Commodore Decker confronts a planet killing machine. After watching it eat planets and losing a fight with it, he beams his entire crew down to one of the remaining planets and then is astonished when it is eaten. Since the machine eats planets and ignores ships that are not a threat, he should have kept at least part of the crew on the ship. Also, if he truly felt it was necessary to abandon ship, he could have scattered his crew into space in escape pods that would have been ignored by the planet killer.

 

[stardream]

Did they hold a memorial service for baby Naomi? In that instance, they actually had a body.

Another good question.

But back to Tuvik. Did anyone go through the grieving process? Did they talk about how much they missed him while in the mess hall with Neelix within hearing distance?

Of course none of those things make him 'not a person' but was his loss treated like the loss of any other crewmate? Did they hold a wake... gathering around somewhere to remember the good times?

 

[Vandervecken]

Do we really value adult life more than a child's life? Don't we tend to think those that abuse/injury/harm/kill children are the lowest form of criminal scum?

But the whole world is structured for use primarily by adults. A 9-month-old fetus can be sacrificed to save the mother--I don't disagree with that by the way, but we can't deny that that shows certain priorities.

The argument that Tuvix was not a genuine individual due to the way he was created, and they never really stopped being two people carries a little more weight, but that's a huge philosophical debate.

I like this. Had Janeway been in the Federation this might have been kicked quickly to a court, and so I think it should in large measure be regarded as a legal matter. There was no Tuvix, just a weirdly malformed Tuvok and Neelix, who happened to be molecularly glued together. And because of the way said gluing affected their brains, they were not in their right minds. No one can argue that two brains interwoven are still producing anything that would meet the legal standard of "right mind." Thus the decision to save Tuvok and Neelix--not kill the imaginary Tuvix, who was merely a side effect of the gluing--was properly hers, and she made the right one.

I could see possibly arguing that Tuvix was an emergent system and thus as much an individual as anyone. But with expert testimony (ie, B'Elanna) backing up that Tuvok and Neelix were recoverable, not dead, the presumption would be on their behalf as injured people needing medical assistance. There would be more expert testimony on this, and there would be counterexperts arguing the emergent system angle, but the fact that the interpretation that they are injured and assistable can be made at all by experts at the least gives priority to the life of a Federation citizen--Tuvok.

 

[hux]

But the whole world is structured for use primarily by adults. A 9-month-old fetus can be sacrificed to save the mother--I don't disagree with that by the way, but we can't deny that that shows certain priorities.

Would you prefer the world to be structured primarily for children? Tiny little doors and noddy cars?

And your foetus example is ridiculously specific and weird. If the entire world had to choose between a child and an adult, (barring any personal bias) they would pretty much always choose the child.

 

[Vandervecken]

Would you prefer the world to be structured primarily for children? Tiny little doors and noddy cars?

I wouldn't prefer it. That's the point. Humans favor adults most of the time.

And your foetus example is ridiculously specific and weird. If the entire world had to choose between a child and an adult, (barring any personal bias) they would pretty much always choose the child.

Yes, very unlike the much more general case of a transporter accident fusing a Vulcan and Telaxian.

I doubt that--choosing the child. If I had to choose between the life of someone I've known say 10 years, and the life of someone I've known 30 years, I'd choose in favor of the person I've known 30 years, and most of the time we will have known children a much shorter time than adults. There would be other factors--I still might conceivably have a higher regard for someone I've known a shorter period of time--but, all other things being equal, I'd choose the one I've known longer.

Janeway barely knew the infant Tuvix, and no doubt she regretted knowing Neelix at all in her private heart, but Tuvok was an adult friend of years. Funny coincidence how he won the life lottery, eh? Didn't the Doctor go bonkers once, because of how he chose to save the life of crewmen? As I recall he questioned out loud his making a decision like that based on whom he knew better. But he hit the nail on the head, or rather the writers did. That's how real people in the real world make choices like that, by looking how they affect us, as opposed to the lip service--and internal fictionalizing--we pay to lofty ideals. In the Doctor's case, though, he needs to reconcile a decision of this kind with hard lines drawn by programming, and it f'd him up. People like Janeway and all the rest of us have squishy brain to work around most of that madness-inducing stuff, usually by telling ourselves little lies.

 

[MacLeod]

I wouldn't prefer it. That's the point. Humans favor adults most of the time.



Yes, very unlike the much more general case of a transporter accident fusing a Vulcan and Telaxian.

I doubt that--choosing the child. If I had to choose between the life of someone I've known say 10 years, and the life of someone I've known 30 years, I'd choose in favor of the person I've known 30 years, and most of the time we will have known children a much shorter time than adults. There would be other factors--I still might conceivably have a higher regard for someone I've known a shorter period of time--but, all other things being equal, I'd choose the one I've known longer.

Janeway barely knew the infant Tuvix, and no doubt she regretted knowing Neelix at all in her private heart, but Tuvok was an adult friend of years. Funny coincidence how he won the life lottery, eh? Didn't the Doctor go bonkers once, because of how he chose to save the life of crewmen? As I recall he questioned out loud his making a decision like that based on whom he knew better. But he hit the nail on the head, or rather the writers did. That's how real people in the real world make choices like that, by looking how they affect us, as opposed to the lip service--and internal fictionalizing--we pay to lofty ideals. In the Doctor's case, though, he needs to reconcile a decision of this kind with hard lines drawn by programming, and it f'd him up. People like Janeway and all the rest of us have squishy brain to work around most of that madness-inducing stuff, usually by telling ourselves little lies.

But are we more likely to react if we see a child in danger over an adult in danger, most of us even those of us who aren't parents will likely react to seeing a child in danger over an adult as we have a natural instinct (for the most part) to protect children

 

[PhaserLightShow]

Do we really value adult life more than a child's life? Don't we tend to think those that abuse/injury/harm/kill children are the lowest form of criminal scum?

We think the same of adult life. All men are not created equal, but they get equal treatment under our law (which is logical).
No child is any more important than any one adult, and vice-versa.

@PhaserLightShow
"Live Long and Prosper"

 

[hux]

I wouldn't prefer it. That's the point. Humans favor adults most of the time.

For obvious reasons; not because adults just like being dicks to children.

Yes, very unlike the much more general case of a transporter accident fusing a Vulcan and Telaxian.

Because the first real world analogy you could think of was abortion? No, it was a dumb loaded example.

I doubt that--choosing the child. If I had to choose between the life of someone I've known say 10 years, and the life of someone I've known 30 years, I'd choose in favor of the person I've known 30 years, and most of the time we will have known children a much shorter time than adults. There would be other factors--I still might conceivably have a higher regard for someone I've known a shorter period of time--but, all other things being equal, I'd choose the one I've known longer.

Length of time you've known someone is irrelevant. If you would choose an adult friend over a child then that's who you are. It isn't who most people are.

Janeway barely knew the infant Tuvix, and no doubt she regretted knowing Neelix at all in her private heart, but Tuvok was an adult friend of years. Funny coincidence how he won the life lottery, eh? Didn't the Doctor go bonkers once, because of how he chose to save the life of crewmen? As I recall he questioned out loud his making a decision like that based on whom he knew better. But he hit the nail on the head, or rather the writers did. That's how real people in the real world make choices like that, by looking how they affect us, as opposed to the lip service--and internal fictionalizing--we pay to lofty ideals. In the Doctor's case, though, he needs to reconcile a decision of this kind with hard lines drawn by programming, and it f'd him up. People like Janeway and all the rest of us have squishy brain to work around most of that madness-inducing stuff, usually by telling ourselves little lies.

Had two nobody's from deck 15 been fused together, I very much doubt she would have said... "meh, fuck em, they're not close friends of mine so it's fine". She would have done exactly the same thing that she did with Tuvok and Neelix.

 

[Vandervecken]

But are we more likely to react if we see a child in danger over an adult in danger, most of us even those of us who aren't parents will likely react to seeing a child in danger over an adult as we have a natural instinct (for the most part) to protect children

Probably--but the danger wasn't imminent in Tuvok's, Neelix's, and "Tuvix's" cases, and that makes a difference. Although there was imminence for Tuvok and Neelix in the sense that the clock was ticking and they would have been unrecoverable soon. But there wasn't imminent danger to the eye, and humans are very and primarily visually oriented.

We think the same of adult life. All men are not created equal, but they get equal treatment under our law (which is logical).
No child is any more important than any one adult, and vice-versa.

@PhaserLightShow
"Live Long and Prosper"

Not entirely true. Law enforcement personnel, for example have additional protections--ie, penalties for bad guys who assault them--under the law, and for that reason, in some circumstances, they are actually rated as more valuable than civilian adults and also children.

And the law is implemented by people with sentiments. In Janeway's case, of course, it didn't even come before the law. But at the end of the day, everything is personal.

 

[Vandervecken]

For obvious reasons; not because adults just like being dicks to children.



Because the first real world analogy you could think of was abortion? No, it was a dumb loaded example.

No, it was a perfectly juxtaposable example with the at least equally unusual situation dealt here. Your attempt to describe it as otherwised is what is dumb, very. They are similar in their unusual nature, and what is more, there are almost no other situations in real life where we would have time to pause over whether or not to save the child's life or the adult's. Any other situations would involve imminent danger, and it is they that would be utterly unlike the situation with Tuvok and Neelix, for just that reason.

Length of time you've known someone is irrelevant. If you would choose an adult friend over a child then that's who you are. It isn't who most people are.

Only irrelevant if you're an automaton. To real people, it matters.

Had two nobody's from deck 15 been fused together, I very much doubt she would have said... "meh, fuck em, they're not close friends of mine so it's fine". She would have done exactly the same thing that she did with Tuvok and Neelix.

I disagree.

 

[hux]

No, it was a perfectly juxtaposable example with the at least equally unusual situation dealt here. Your attempt to describe it as otherwised is what is dumb, very. They are similar in their unusual nature, and what is more, there are almost no other situations in real life where we would have time to pause over whether or not to save the child's life or the adult's. Any other situations would involve imminent danger, and it is they that would be utterly unlike the situation with Tuvok and Neelix, for just that reason.

No they are not. You're abortion example was moronic. The only examples that are sincerely analogous would involve living children and not a ludicrous grey area foetus designed to emotionally load the question. Please explain where a nine month old foetus is still just a foetus or where there is a justifiable reason to deliberately kill that child in order to save the mother?

Only irrelevant if you're an automaton. To real people, it matters.

If you're trying to save your friend's life at the expense of a child's then you're a cunt. If you're asking to be saved ahead of a child, you're also a cunt. Pure and simple. As a society, we placed the safety of children first.

I disagree.

So you're saying that if it were two crew members she didn't really know that well, she'd just think... "Fuck em. Lets leave them fused together." That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard

 

[T'Girl]

If I had to choose between the life of someone I've known say 10 years, and the life of someone I've known 30 years, I'd choose in favor of the person I've known 30 years, and most of the time we will have known children a much shorter time than adults.

If you had to choose between your life and your child's life, who would you choose? You've known yourself longer, yes?

No child is any more important than any one adult, and vice-versa.

Yes children in general are more important than adults, and the laws we enacted though our judges and elected officials say so.

(and janeway is still right)

†

 

[Kor]

I would say that Janeway made the only decision that made sense.

I just wish I could gain back the hour of my life that I wasted watching "Tuvix."

Kor

 

[Hartzilla2007]

To make it accurate, the organs that were saving people's lives would originally have come from those people in the first place and they would have been taken without permission and needed for continued existence... In which case yeah, ethical to take them back.

And yet they didn't do that when that happened to Neelix.

Besides it felt more like killing a guy to resurrect her dead friends.

 

[Vandervecken]

If you had to choose between your life and your child's life, who would you choose? You've known yourself longer, yes?

Yes children in general are more important than adults, and the laws we enacted though our judges and elected officials say so.

(and janeway is still right)

†

How about everyone other than myself, and a child that is not mine--as would be the case with Tuvix (he is no one's child)?

 

[Vandervecken]

No they are not. You're abortion example was moronic. The only examples that are sincerely analogous would involve living children and not a ludicrous grey area foetus designed to emotionally load the question. Please explain where a nine month old foetus is still just a foetus or where there is a justifiable reason to deliberately kill that child in order to save the mother?



If you're trying to save your friend's life at the expense of a child's then you're a cunt. If you're asking to be saved ahead of a child, you're also a cunt. Pure and simple. As a society, we placed the safety of children first.



So you're saying that if it were two crew members she didn't really know that well, she'd just think... "Fuck em. Lets leave them fused together." That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard

No, my abortion example is the only real-world example that even comes close; your description of it is the moron-level argument here. There aren't any other examples involving children that would involve a period of time in the choosing, as opposed to having to make an instantaneous choice without any reflection. Your knee is jerking; you're not actually thinking any of this through.

If you're thinking I have some political agenda here, you're dead wrong. I don't.

Why don't YOU provide an actual, real-world example that occurs with some frequency, and does not involve imminent danger?

The rest doesn't deserve response; it's too low. I would never be able to reach down that far.