The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*

[Temis the Vorta]

I don't think Shane was being completely altruistic. As much as he probably wanted to save Carl, I think it had more to do with his own survival than anything else.

Shane did make an attempt to get Otis to take the bags, presumably on the assumption that he thought Otis had the better chance to get away. So the way I read the situation was about as tragic as can be imagined: there was no way both of them were going to survive and the one to survive would have to be the "worse" guy.

Carl's life depended on one of them staying behind as bait. Shane offered to be bait, Otis refused, because he's a better man than Shane, perhaps. That batted the ball into Shane's court, and he was the one who made the only decision he could have: since Otis wouldn't leave Shane as bait, Shane was forced to turn Otis into bait.

But geeze, couldn't Shane have shot the guy cleanly in the head? I guess we can chalk that up to Shane not being able to bring himself to kill an innocent person outright, being a sherrif and all, but it would have been the more merciful, not to mention efficient, option.

Otis almost kept Shane from getting away. I really can't see Shane being cold-blooded enough in that situation to rationally assess whether Otis would be better bait alive or dead. Shooting Otis in the foot is as much as he could bring himself to do, in a situation where there was no time to think anything through.

I don't think Shane is a bad guy at all, at least not right now. But I think he's going to become a case study in the burden that excessive guilt can place on the psyche. He'll never shake Lori's suspicion that he lied about Rick's death because it's impossible for Shane himself to ever know whether he was deluding himself that Rick had no heartbeat in the hospital. To try to overcome that guilt, he's heaped something worse on himself. I think we're going into Macbeth territory with him. Specifically, this:

"I am in blood
Stepp'd in so far, that, should I wade no more,
Returning were as tedious as go o'er."
-Macbeth, Scene IV

Also, I thought shaving his head like that would attract more attention than just having that bald spot.

Something like that can be chalked up to the emotional trauma of seeing Otis eaten alive, even if nobody knows Shane was to blame, not to mention all the other trauma he and everyone else has endured. All these people are on edge emotionally and that can manifest itself in odd ways.

I'm sure shaving his head was some kind of visual indicator for the direction Shane is heading, but it didn't make much sense in my eyes for practical reasons.

I see it as mainly psychological rather than practical. He could tell everyone a zombie pulled out his hair in trying to grab him. Shaving his head is a recognition of guilt and penitence or a confirmation that he's planning to just keep wading across that river, Macbeth-style, or most interestingly: it's both.

 

[Silvercrest]

Also, I thought shaving his head like that would attract more attention than just having that bald spot. He could easily explain that (zombies), but he's going to have a slightly more difficult time explaining his shaved head (unless he claims he did it for vanity reasons or whatever). I'm sure shaving his head was some kind of visual indicator for the direction Shane is heading, but it didn't make much sense in my eyes for practical reasons.

The bald spot is a constant reminder of what Shane did. Shaving his head gets rid of that reminder and MIGHT make it easier to live with.

 

[Sindatur]

So ... Watching tonight's episode (10/30), Merle--whom I'm liking so much more than his brother and who seems much smarter--and Andrea go off in search of Sophia. They come across a zombie strung up. The person committed suicide after being bitten. The flesh on his legs, the only parts within reach, was eaten off.

Does this mean that zombies WILL eat other zombies? I'm assuming not, since they'd go after each other, I'd think. So he was eaten sometime after he hanged himself but before he zombied? That doesn't sound right on timing either. He was bitten and, upon hanging, died and zombied. That sounds like they ate a zombie. What am I missing?

Merle came back? Damn, I really disliked his character. I figured eventually he'd be back, and I've been dreading it, but, I was sure in hurry for it to happen

Now, I'm not nearly as excited about watching the episode tonight when I get home

Not sure how anyone could possibly like Merle better than Darryl, but, to each their own. Hopefully Merle comes up Zombie chow very quickly

 

[sidious618]

I think he means Darryl, not Merle.

 

[Silvercrest]

It's not Merle, it's Darryl. The poster accidentally switched names.

 

[Sindatur]

I think he means Darryl, not Merle.

Ah...OK, PHEW, that was a narrow escape due to mistaken identity

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Also, I thought shaving his head like that would attract more attention than just having that bald spot. He could easily explain that (zombies), but he's going to have a slightly more difficult time explaining his shaved head (unless he claims he did it for vanity reasons or whatever). I'm sure shaving his head was some kind of visual indicator for the direction Shane is heading, but it didn't make much sense in my eyes for practical reasons.

The bald spot is a constant reminder of what Shane did. Shaving his head gets rid of that reminder and MIGHT make it easier to live with.

Bingo. But now the shaved head will be a reminder. Shane is just moral enough to want to avoid the guilt and just dumb enough to think shaving his head will help.

 

[Silvercrest]

<merle> Whut kind o' narra escape y'all tawkin' bout? Y'all mean Ah didn't hafta cut ma hand off? Dadgum it! <merle>

 

[Sindatur]

<merle> Whut kind o' narra escape y'all tawkin' bout? Y'all mean Ah didn't hafta cut ma hand off? Dadgum it! <merle>

Yea, ya shoulda cut yore head off, that woulda made it a clean getaway

 

[JacksonArcher]

I don't think Shane shaving his head had anything to do with guilt. I think it had more to do with covering up the fact that he has a bald spot, but that's just my interpretation.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The writing and the actor's performance points towards a heavy load of guilt, first because of Lori and now it's just gotten orders of magnitude worse. Of course none of this is being spoon-fed to us, a la broadcast TV. I'm continually grateful for a series that trusts me to figure these things out for myself.

Anyway, that scene where Shane stares at his "evil" reflection in the foggy mirror is getting perilously close to spoon-feeding territory, especially since they showed that sequence twice. I'd prefer if they back off a bit and make things more ambiguous.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

Bingo. But now the shaved head will be a reminder. Shane is just moral enough to want to avoid the guilt and just dumb enough to think shaving his head will help.

Just like Britney Spears.

 

[JacksonArcher]

Shane did make an attempt to get Otis to take the bags, presumably on the assumption that he thought Otis had the better chance to get away. So the way I read the situation was about as tragic as can be imagined: there was no way both of them were going to survive and the one to survive would have to be the "worse" guy.

Carl's life depended on one of them staying behind as bait. Shane offered to be bait, Otis refused, because he's a better man than Shane, perhaps. That batted the ball into Shane's court, and he was the one who made the only decision he could have: since Otis wouldn't leave Shane as bait, Shane was forced to turn Otis into bait.

But geeze, couldn't Shane have shot the guy cleanly in the head? I guess we can chalk that up to Shane not being able to bring himself to kill an innocent person outright, being a sherrif and all, but it would have been the more merciful, not to mention efficient, option.

As others have said, it is possible that leaving live bait might have been more alluring to the zombies than dead bait. It's also possible that Shane didn't think the situation through, or couldn't bring himself to outright kill Otis.

Otis almost kept Shane from getting away. I really can't see Shane being cold-blooded enough in that situation to rationally assess whether Otis would be better bait alive or dead. Shooting Otis in the foot is as much as he could bring himself to do, in a situation where there was no time to think anything through.

The fact that Otis fought for his life makes me believe that he was of the mentality that both of them could escape with their lives. Shane presumably figured that one of them was going to make it, but not both.

I don't think Shane is a bad guy at all, at least not right now.

I don't think he's a bad guy, but at the same time I don't really like him all that much. I think he's a wonderfully complicated character, who has good intentions, but I started disliking him after he nearly shot Rick- and I do think he would have shot Rick if it wasn't for Dale (which, of course, we'll never know if Shane would have indeed shot Rick if it wasn't for Dale's intrusion).

I mean, no one is perfect, and people sometimes snap during hard times, especially since everyone deals with situations differently. However, things continue to add up that suggest a degradation in Shane's moral character. I can understand him lying about Rick to Lori because, given the flashback, it is very possible that he thought Rick was dead. However, I don't think I've ever contemplated killing my friend, especially someone who I've come to consider a very close friend. I know Shane was experiencing a weak moment, but that incident has stayed with me for a while.

I had assumed that Shane was going to move past his feelings for Lori, but clearly that isn't the case, either. In my summation, I think Shane is a very self-involved character and I think he makes decisions out of his self-interest more than his affection for anyone else, including Carl and Lori.

He could tell everyone a zombie pulled out his hair in trying to grab him. Shaving his head is a recognition of guilt and penitence or a confirmation that he's planning to just keep wading across that river, Macbeth-style, or most interestingly: it's both.

I'm not sure if Shane necessarily feels guilty.

I'm sure there's that remnant of guilt that any normal person would feel if they were in that same situation, but something tells me that Shane is just veering more off the edge. I think shaving his head was more about protecting his innocence, but then again I could be looking at the situation from only one perspective.

Perhaps I'm not giving him enough credit. After all, regardless of what he did, he did end up saving Carl's life. In the end, he faced an incredible situation, and ended up making a decision that wasn't easy. If I was in his situation, I don't think I could have done what he did, but then again, I'm not in his situation so I can't really judge.

I guess it reverts back to Lori's conversation with Rick about survival, and how these people are resorting to making difficult and hard decisions as a consequence of having to endure and survive.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Wow. Good episode. I'm glad the little boy has been saved, but I wish they would find that little girl-- not because I find the storyline boring, but because I'm worried about her. This show is very involving.

I think Shane is fundamentally weak. That's why he got involved with Rick's wife, why he almost shot Rick, why he decided to leave the group and why he shot Otis. He's essentially a good guy. In this situation, his first priority was saving Carl and he was willing to let Otis be the one to get away at first. But when it came right down to it, when the zombies were nipping at their heels, he chose to let the other guy die. Maybe in part because he wanted to be the hero, but mostly because he wanted to live. In a terrifying situation like that, who's to say it's not what any one of us would do? Also, the actor did a great job. He barely said a word once he got back, but his torment was clear-- the other characters read it as horror, but it was clearly guilt.

Aside from that, the episode was full of great moments. The whole thing between Rick and Lori about giving up or going on; the conversation between Glenn and the girl; the latest encounter between Dale and Andrea (I really like Dale-- great character and actor and I completely sympathize with him-- I would have done pretty much what he did); and, of course, Daryl-- he's got a fantastic character arc so far.

And there's got to be more than meets the eye with that farmhouse. Electricity, hot water and no zombies. Where are the zombies? "Did you close the gate when you came in?" There's got to be more than a gate keeping them away.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Any idea which tablet or column? Or when in the story, approximately? You got me hauling out my copy of it.

Unfortunately, I do not. It was just a quote they threw up on the screen. I'll go back to my tape and see if they give a reference and post it tonight if they do.

So I checked my tape and the exact quote was, "I will raise up the dead and they will eat the living-- and the dead will outnumber the living." No citation more specific than The Epic of Gilgamesh was given. A quick Google search finds the quote (with slightly different wording) under "Part 3: Ishtar and Gilgamesh, and the Death of Enkidu."

 

[Garak]

First good episode of the season.

I really enjoyed Shane descent in to darkness, doing things I'm sure he never thought himself capable of during simpler times. I can't help but wonder if that kind of theme is being foreshadowed for the other survivors we are following.

Of course we knew Carl was going to make it, but I am quite surprised the girl hasn't been found yet. I found the conversation betwen Rick and his wife regarding whether or not Carl should live to be particularly interesting.

The hanging zombie was super creepy, thought that was very well done. Definite waste of an arrow though.

Seems like we're back on track, looking forward to next week.

 

[WeAreTheBorg]

This episode presented a good moral dilemma on par with any that I've seen in moral philosophy. Assuming they had 0% chance, I think it was right for one of them to do that. To be fair though, there should have been a lottery for it.

What did they tell whatsherface when Shane got back without Otis? Did she just assume he was there or did they lie about his whereabouts? Something about that part didn't ring true.

She was busy prepping surgery, and had no chance to notice whether he was there or not.

 

[sojourner]

^If you're talking about Shane and Otis, it's not like they had time to draw up a charter or anything.

 

[Jax]

Dam Shane you cold bastard, I look forward to the day he bites the bullet though not for a while cause hes a great dark character.

 

[sidious618]

I enjoyed the episode although I didn't buy Lori's speech about wanting Carl to die. She's wildly inconsistent as a character and I'd rather Shane shot her as opposed to Otis. That said, Shane killing Otis was effective and I can't judge Shane too harshly (for this, at least) because he was in a horrible position.