You win Non Sequiter Post of the Week!
If America were overrun by a zombie apocalypse, the Patriot Act would be the least of our problems.
Eh. I'll probably never get around to the comics, honestly. The show is enough zombies for me.
The Walking Dead Season 2 Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter PsychoPere
- Start date
You win Non Sequiter Post of the Week!
If America were overrun by a zombie apocalypse, the Patriot Act would be the least of our problems.
Eh. I'll probably never get around to the comics, honestly. The show is enough zombies for me.
And...Comics knowledge could either confuse your theorizing (Because you're counting on things happening that they don't use from the comics) or You'll be spoiled on plot lines if they do use them.
You win Non Sequiter Post of the Week!
If America were overrun by a zombie apocalypse, the Patriot Act would be the least of our problems.
Eh. I'll probably never get around to the comics, honestly. The show is enough zombies for me.
I personally love the show, but, not interested in reading the comics, because I don't want to contaminate your views of the show and my expectations.
That's just silly. I sincerely doubt you've read or viewed the source material on every single show and movie you're a fan of.
Plus, as Sindatur mentions above, what if you want to come at the TV show fresh without any expectations or preconceptions from the comics?
I know a few things that might be upcoming from an online article about events and characters from the comics they'd like to see show up in the series, but otherwise I've stayed away from the comic until the show is over (or at least until the narrative obviously surpasses those issues).
I'm doing the same with Game of Thrones, which I bought as a book set (at a really good price), but will only read after the show's storyline has passed each individual novel.
You win Non Sequiter Post of the Week!
If America were overrun by a zombie apocalypse, the Patriot Act would be the least of our problems.
It's not a non sequitur at all. He obviously wasn't talking about applying the Patriot Act in a time of a zombie apocalypse (how you arrived there is beyond me), but rather opposing the idea of compromising your morals because times are hard and they are no longer safe or convenient to maintain.
To be honest the TV series is already much better. The comic is just loaded with melodrama and adolescent power fantasies.
You win Non Sequiter Post of the Week!
If America were overrun by a zombie apocalypse, the Patriot Act would be the least of our problems.
umm.... not exactly my point.
From the seminal modern zombie movie, Romero's Night of the Living Dead, the point has been to analyze societal interaction in microcosm, in a bottle universe. It's no coincidence that the hero of that film, made in the heat of the civil rights era, is black. Throwing out societal norms and deciding not to evaluate the conduct of the characters defeats the whole purpose of the exercise, indeed, of the very genre.
Just so. In the aftermath of 9/11, I (a political conservative, I might add) was horrified at how people were willing to suspend the Constitution itself in the interest of exigency.
My heroes, fictional and not, were willing to live and die for what they believed in. Principles mean nothing until they are tested. One's convictions must be a code to live - and yes, die - by. If they can simply be put aside, then they weren't what that person - or that society - really believed in at all.
I have been a devout lawyer for my entire adult life. I believe the law, in a constant state of refinement and growth, is the ultimate codification of the human experience. To find that the people who pass and live by those laws don't truly believe in them leaves someone who believes in his society entirely bereft of any faith he might have had in that society.
The old TZ episode The Monsters are Due on Maple Street is an excellent fictional example.
This is what the zombie genre should be all about in the first place. What do we believe - how do we act - when the chips are down? Just what are we?
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Exactly. As I said earlier, it's all about the survivors holding onto their humanity in the face of the dehumanized horde.
I get the analogy, but it's too extreme and therefore falls apart. I don't expect people in these circumstances to hold onto their humanity. It's simply unrealistic.
People in far less extreme circumstances have lost their humanity and done terrible things, and then guess what, when you look at the situation in retrospect nothing bad happened as a result.
Here's an example: the extermination of Native Americans in order to create land for white people to settle and create America. That was bad, but the badness was never punished. In fact, it was rewarded with success and material gain. History is full of examples like that.
It's a replay of the problem I had with nuBSG. When you're talking about the survival of a species, morality simply doesn't count. The smart thing to do is forget morality and make sure your species survives. Then you'll have some descendents, and they won't give a flip what you did in order to make sure they existed. If your species is exterminated, then there will be nobody left to praise your morally upstanding ways.
The idea that it's important for people to "hold onto their humanity" is a romanticized notion that doesn't actually hold up to an examination of the shit people do get up to, and whether they are rewarded or punished for it. The world is a very unromantic place. Evil has always gone unpunished, under far less understandable circumstances than a zombie apocalypse, and evil will continue to evade punishment long after all of us are gone. Power is far more important than morality.
But for the purposes of drama, I'll accept that it's important for the people in this story to hold onto their humanity, for personal reasons, and enjoy the story that unfolds as a result. As long as it's internally consistent and psychologically believable, it doesn't matter that it actually has no applicability to the real world. I don't condemn Shane's actions, for instance, but I fully expect them to have serious psychological repercussions on him, which will be interesting to watch.
People in far less extreme circumstances have lost their humanity and done terrible things, and then guess what, when you look at the situation in retrospect nothing bad happened as a result.
Here's an example: the extermination of Native Americans in order to create land for white people to settle and create America. That was bad, but the badness was never punished. In fact, it was rewarded with success and material gain. History is full of examples like that.
It's a replay of the problem I had with nuBSG. When you're talking about the survival of a species, morality simply doesn't count. The smart thing to do is forget morality and make sure your species survives. Then you'll have some descendents, and they won't give a flip what you did in order to make sure they existed. If your species is exterminated, then there will be nobody left to praise your morally upstanding ways.
The idea that it's important for people to "hold onto their humanity" is a romanticized notion that doesn't actually hold up to an examination of the shit people do get up to, and whether they are rewarded or punished for it. The world is a very unromantic place. Evil has always gone unpunished, under far less understandable circumstances than a zombie apocalypse, and evil will continue to evade punishment long after all of us are gone. Power is far more important than morality.
But for the purposes of drama, I'll accept that it's important for the people in this story to hold onto their humanity, for personal reasons, and enjoy the story that unfolds as a result. As long as it's internally consistent and psychologically believable, it doesn't matter that it actually has no applicability to the real world. I don't condemn Shane's actions, for instance, but I fully expect them to have serious psychological repercussions on him, which will be interesting to watch.
PS, before anyone thinks that I'm accusing The Walking Dead of the same obnoxious sledgehammer moralizing that nuBSG was guilty of, rest assured I'm not!
The "moral analogy," if it exists, is entirely being left in the minds of the viewers, which is where such things belong. What we've seen on screen could be intended as nothing more than a psychological exploration of the stresses that people are put under, in extreme circumstances. It's up to the audience to decide what to make of it all.
The "moral analogy," if it exists, is entirely being left in the minds of the viewers, which is where such things belong. What we've seen on screen could be intended as nothing more than a psychological exploration of the stresses that people are put under, in extreme circumstances. It's up to the audience to decide what to make of it all.
What a sad worldview. And an inaccurate one. For every kapo in Dachau, there were a dozen heroes. Clinging to our humanity in those circumstances is all that matters, and I grew up with enough holocaust survivors to know that it does happen. Most of the time.
Or at least it did with that generation. If people think the way you do... I'm not so sure.
Am I the only one who thinks the TV show (which I like) is evolving away from the comic book and into "Lost" with zombies.
You have Rick as Jack (the flawed hero everyone looks to), Shane as Sawyer (bad boy with an agenda), Laurie as Kate, Glenn as Hurley and Daryl and Dale splitting the John Locke duties.
The CDC was the hatch, the helicopters are the plane/food drops and now we even have some "others" running around (with more to come).
You have Rick as Jack (the flawed hero everyone looks to), Shane as Sawyer (bad boy with an agenda), Laurie as Kate, Glenn as Hurley and Daryl and Dale splitting the John Locke duties.
The CDC was the hatch, the helicopters are the plane/food drops and now we even have some "others" running around (with more to come).
I just watched 2x03, "Save the Last One".
I gotta say, though I'm surprised Shane would do something so blatantly harmful to someone just for his own survival, I've known there was something "off" about him since early in season 1.
He's like Rick in some ways; loyal, protective and almost chivalrous with others, but in Shane's case, it's more pretense than conscious conviction or actual personality traits. And it's a pretense that often gets shed at the first sign of stress and personal turmoil, i.e. beating Ed senseless, angrily pointing his gun at Rick behind his back, shooting Otis for his own survival.
I think from here, Shane has nowhere to go but downhill. It starts with sacrificing someone else to save himself, but IMO it'll quickly spiral into much, much worse. Eventually, I think there'll be a open standoff of some sort between Shane and the others/Rick.
It kind of goes back to the discussion about how real people would react to the situation and if their humanity would remain intact. I think, realistically, there would be people like Rick. Those would are consciously aware of the moral implications of their choices and, in a situation like Walking Dead, see the importance of remaining true to themselves and what little morality people have left.
And there'd always be the people who are first and foremost about their own survival and comfort. The plunderers.
But there'd also be the people like Shane, people who do it partially for show, and as time and stress wears on, they'd slowly allow more of their humanity to become victim to their circumstances and the stresses they carry.
All in all though, I'm really interested to see where this season is going to take us. Looking good so far.
I gotta say, though I'm surprised Shane would do something so blatantly harmful to someone just for his own survival, I've known there was something "off" about him since early in season 1.
He's like Rick in some ways; loyal, protective and almost chivalrous with others, but in Shane's case, it's more pretense than conscious conviction or actual personality traits. And it's a pretense that often gets shed at the first sign of stress and personal turmoil, i.e. beating Ed senseless, angrily pointing his gun at Rick behind his back, shooting Otis for his own survival.
I think from here, Shane has nowhere to go but downhill. It starts with sacrificing someone else to save himself, but IMO it'll quickly spiral into much, much worse. Eventually, I think there'll be a open standoff of some sort between Shane and the others/Rick.
It kind of goes back to the discussion about how real people would react to the situation and if their humanity would remain intact. I think, realistically, there would be people like Rick. Those would are consciously aware of the moral implications of their choices and, in a situation like Walking Dead, see the importance of remaining true to themselves and what little morality people have left.
And there'd always be the people who are first and foremost about their own survival and comfort. The plunderers.
But there'd also be the people like Shane, people who do it partially for show, and as time and stress wears on, they'd slowly allow more of their humanity to become victim to their circumstances and the stresses they carry.
All in all though, I'm really interested to see where this season is going to take us. Looking good so far.
"Humanity" is sort of a nebulous idea to begin with. To use your example, it's hard to interpret early Americans as compromising their humanity when it was the widespread belief in manifest destiny that pushed westward expansion in the first place.
If you interpret "humanity" more as the moral norms of a society at that time then, yes, disastrous things can happen when they're compromised. Human history is littered with far more civilizations that have failed than ones that have survived. Rome is a textbook example of that. It started out as a fanatical republic and ending up collapsing as an autocratic empire, sowing the seeds of feudalism in the west. Through a series of moral compromises (usually during times of immense peril) the Romans slowly destroyed themselves.
This is called "nihilism." It's a horrible idea in real life and it's a horrible premise for a TV show.
RV pulls up to the farm house... Lots of hugs and handshakes... "Good to see you guys again. What's it been, a day?"
Anyway, their "Go to Town" expert Glenn certainly went to town... The question about whether he could get "in and out" was answered... He didn't do his thing solo the way he usually does... I like that they dealt with the sex issue and I loved those foreshadowing puns. It's the end of the world, people are going to be thinking about getting laid and although it took a season or so, they didn't waste any time when the moment arrived for two of the characters. "Want to have sex?" "Sure." No clichéd zombie-walking-in-on-them bit either. And if there's gonna be sex, who better than Lauren Cohan who can do hot and sexy even while roughing it during a zombie apocalypse? The farmer's daughter was well cast.
I wonder how Lori's pregnancy will play out since it looks to be Shane's kid.
Anyway, their "Go to Town" expert Glenn certainly went to town... The question about whether he could get "in and out" was answered... He didn't do his thing solo the way he usually does...
I like that they dealt with the sex issue and I loved those foreshadowing puns. It's the end of the world, people are going to be thinking about getting laid and although it took a season or so, they didn't waste any time when the moment arrived for two of the characters. "Want to have sex?" "Sure." No clichéd zombie-walking-in-on-them bit either. And if there's gonna be sex, who better than Lauren Cohan who can do hot and sexy even while roughing it during a zombie apocalypse? The farmer's daughter was well cast.
I wonder how Lori's pregnancy will play out since it looks to be Shane's kid.
Rick isn't acting like he knows. I heard that that's what he was told by Jenner in the comics.
Neat trick considering Jenner wasn't in the comics.
^ I guess what I heard is wrong or inaccurate then. I haven't read the comics.
I know. The ominous shot of the barn was a good piece of foreshadowing for followers of the comic.
